rsa supporting e-scooters

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118091811#Comment_118091811

Great, and same for any car with a broken headlight, or broken brake light or two, right? Let's impound them all...

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118091825#Comment_118091825

Would driving a motorbike at 25 kph along a footpath be a minor deal -

I suppose you could make it a condition of pedelec and e-scooter riding that you have ID, but I can't see that happening either ..

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118091811#Comment_118091811

IIRC a garda has the power to confiscate a bike if he or she is not convinced that the cyclist has identified themselves truthfully when stopped for an offence. i suspect it's a power very rarely used.

Rosahane

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118091696#Comment_118091696

Yes, visible because we have street lights...and it wasn't just because it was an eBike. I was because of the speed he was doing, the fact that he was on the footpath and the fact that he didn't slow down at the intersections!

Indeed people could do that speed on an ordinary bike although since they are responsible adults and cogniscent of the hazards I've never seen an adult either on the footpath or going fast on the road ...and we have lots of cyclists living here that are well capable of doing 40 KPH

We do have lots of children and younger teenagers riding their bikes (and electric scooters) on the footpath but again they have common sense and don't behave like the yob.

tomasrojo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118094288#Comment_118094288

40km/h is pretty uncommon speed for non-professional cyclists. Unless they're going downhill or something. Something like 14km/h is the average speed of a cyclist inside the M50 in Dublin.

magicbastarder

indeed; i am capable of doing 40km/h on the flat. i'm not capable of sustaining it for more than a few hundred metres.

Lumen

Is this the e-scooter thread?

I've been researching the market for a purchase, and concluded that none or almost none of those currently for sale meet what I consider to be reasonable minimum safety standards, those being:

• Front and rear brakes (the need for front brakes is obvious from basic physics but also evident from the test results, which show that rear-only braked scooters take around twice the distance to stop)
• Front and rear lights (because why not, when you have a massive battery)
• Front and rear pneumatic (or at least deformable) tyres and some degree of suspension, necessary IMO given the small wheels.
• Some degree of waterproofing of the electronics (IP rating)
• A maximum speed of less than 30kph.

There are a number of reasons that so few meet this spec, principally cost, but the effect of underengineering and lack of regulations is that the ones with front brakes are invariably those with excessive top speeds, whereas the slower scooters are hobbled by under-engineering and are therefore less safe at a given speed. I agree with top speed limits but disagree with power limits, particularly as these disadvantage heavier riders in hilly areas. It's not like an e-bike where you can assist the motor with muscle power.

My current top choice is the Apollo City, which meets all of these requirements except top speed, which is 45kph. However, there are three riding modes, the first of which is limited to 15mph (with no limit on power), so it is at least possible to comply with the spirit of the likely legislation with a scooter that meets other reasonable safety standards.

There are a few in use around where I live and it seems the gardai are leaving users alone if they ride responsibly, but the prospect of having over a thousand euros of scooter confiscated is a bit offputting.

FWIW I did most of my research using:

https://electric-scooter.guide/comparisons/electric-scooter-performance-tests/

https://electric-scooter.guide/comparisons/compare-electric-scooters/

Macy0161

Thread title probably needs updating to reflect the change to Powered Personal Transporters (PPTs)?

LeeroyJ.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118140468#Comment_118140468

• Front and rear brakes (the need for front brakes is obvious from basic physics but also evident from the test results, which show that rear-only braked scooters take around twice the distance to stop)
• Majority of scooters use a rear disc brake coupled with an electronic regenerative front (motor) break
• Front and rear lights (because why not, when you have a massive battery)
• Not sure what scooters you are checking but pretty much every scooter has a front and rear light (M365, Ninebot Max, Etwow..)
• Front and rear pneumatic (or at least deformable) tyres and some degree of suspension, necessary IMO given the small wheels.
• This come down to preference, I don't want to deal with flat tires, so my model has suspension and honeycomb style tires which gives plenty of cushions.
• Some degree of waterproofing of the electronics (IP rating)
• This is a problem, most are splash resistant, but many aren't officially rated, although I've swum through puddles on rainy days and haven't encountered any problem. It's certainly an issue, though.
• A maximum speed of less than 30kph.
• This comed down to our regulation, since there is none, the models sold here are all imported and not set up with any laws in mind. Majority of scooters can be limited via software, for example mine is capable of 40km/h, but I've limited it to 25 via the dashboard (for safety, battery and decrease of run in with police. In countries like Germany where there is regulation, the models sold there fulfil the requirements.

Lumen

@LeeroyJ. wrote

Majority of scooters use a rear disc brake coupled with an electronic regenerative front (motor) break

Surely only if they have a front motor, i.e. are dual motor, which covers only the most heavy and powerful scooters, not majority? The normal commuter scooters I've seen are single (rear) motor.

Not sure what scooters you are checking but pretty much every scooter has a front and rear light (M365, Ninebot Max, Etwow..)

Agreed, that's not much of a distinguishing feature.

[tyre construction] comes down to preference, I don't want to deal with flat tires, so my model has suspension and honeycomb style tires which gives plenty of cushions.

...which meets the "deformable" requirement I think. But those don't seen too common except on the heavier, more powerful scooters.

Majority of scooters can be limited via software, for example mine is capable of 40km/h, but I've limited it to 25 via the dashboard (for safety, battery and decrease of run in with police. In countries like Germany where there is regulation, the models sold there fulfil the requirements.

Unfortunately this speed limit (which I am also proposing to use) won't make them legal, since there is a proposed limit on motor power. But I guess you're less likely to get pulled if you stay under 25kph and don't have an accident

Which make and model do you have?

I think your points largely agree with my analysis, which is that the scooters currently on the market that will meet upcoming legislation (<250W, <25kph) are less safe at a given speed than the more powerful ones.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40725216.html

Lumen

https://www.irishlegal.com/articles/analysis-road-traffic-and-roads-bill-2021-scoots-off-for-cabinet-approval

DaveyDave

I suppose it might depend on where you live but most scooters I see don't have lights. They're a cheap mode of transportation so not everyone is buying higher end models with all the bells and whistles. As long as it gets them to work that's all that matters.

Might see one or two around my estate with lights but majority of lads I see going to Intel for example don't have them.

Cabaal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118163692#Comment_118163692

Same problem as with bikes then.

Vast majority of bikes sold in Ireland come with no lights, utterly silly really.

magicbastarder

with e-scooters, most seem to have lights but some are a little derisory. and it's even sillier if an e-scooter doesn't come without lights, for the reason that it has a large battery already integrated, thus making integrated lights a no-brainer.

Cabaal

I had this discussion with my other half lastnight and neither of us could make any sense about why bikes don't come with lights, even crappy lights. After all its a legal requirement to have them if cycling at night.

In all the bikes I've ever bought only one actually came with lights and that was my super practical dutch bike which also had mudguards etc.

It's like this country is allergic to buying a bike thats actually fit for the proper use, instead most people buy mountain bikes when they never go off road and hybrid bikes which have no mudguards so you get destroyed if it rains. It also means people have to shell out money for stuff that should come as standard.

magicbastarder

i wouldn't want a bike to come with crappy lights; it'd be a waste of my money and of resources. i have lights i can move between bikes, lights i'm happy with and where i have a decent enough idea of how long a charge will last.

i know i'm reasonably unusual as most cyclists you see in suburban settings don't have several bikes, but as lights are designed to clip on and off, it makes sense to sell them separately anyway. my wife's e-bike came with integrated lights, but i still put more on the bike anyway,

tomasrojo

My daughter's bike has integrated lights that come on automatically when ambient light is low, which is a great feature for kids, who even if they have lights mightn't bothered turning them on.

If I'm locking up in a higher-theft area though, I'm happier to have removable lights, if they're good lights. Haven't had any problem with the hub dynamo light on our cargo bike being messed with, I have to say, but it doesn't get left very long in the open in town.

Lumen

All the decent e-scooters come with integrated lights front and rear. Not necessarily at a decent height, but they're there.

This is where tomasrojo usually recommends some kind of cowboy hivis crime against fashion. 😂

I don't know what the proposed regs says about lights. The compulsory helment for kids thing seems like a slippery slope, but then we already have helmets for motorbikes, so.

For some reason these regs seem to deviate from proposed EU regs which allow up to 1000W. Can't be bothered to find the link now. 250W seems insufficient for scooters, judging by published hill tests. I don't know why 250W is fine for a human powered bicycle going up hill but not for a scooter. Maybe the scooter ratings are marketing bs. Someone should dyno a scooter.

magicbastarder

250W seems insufficient for scooters, judging by published hill tests. I don't know why 250W is fine for a human powered bicycle going up hill but not for a scooter.

maybe it's the physics of the small wheels?

an aside, i was making soup yesterday and chuckling at the '700W' printed on the side of the hand blender i was using. nearly three times the power of my wife's e-bike, or nearly as powerful as my (half decent) woodturning lathe.

tomasrojo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118167817#Comment_118167817

I've seen plenty of them with front lights at a height comparable to what you'd see on a bike. It's the rear light that's lower than you'd see on a bike (which is usually a minimum of about 35cm off the ground).

(Now I think about it, those front lights up on the T-bar probably aren't integrated.)

Lumen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118167980#Comment_118167980

Yeah, it's a bit disturbing that the most talented and highly trained professional cyclists have a peak sprint wattage less than a hairdryer.

Varik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118168973#Comment_118168973

Hairdryer power usage is mostly down to the heat, even for a human the average person is making 100-120w of heat at rest.

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118168284#Comment_118168284

Stick a flashing red led on your backpack .. or even the back of your jacket or hat /helmet ,

complicated problem solved ..

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118190890#Comment_118190890

I think that might fall foul of the laws in terms of the max height from the ground

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118191135#Comment_118191135

Fair enough - on your belt ?

tomasrojo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118191246#Comment_118191246

The bicycle lighting laws, and I think the other vehicle lighting laws, require the mandatory minimum lights (one white to the front, one red to the rear) to be attached to the vehicle itself.

I don't know if they're proposing to make an exception for the scooters, but it does seem to be worth doing. In the Netherlands, the mandatory bicycle front and rear lights can be on your person instead of the vehicle. I'd be in favour of that generally (provided they're actually visible in the same way as if they were attached to the vehicle).

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118164919#Comment_118164919

Why don't the RSA solve the problem at source, rather than individualize it?

In Germany and the Netherlands - bikes do not leave the bike store without decent enough lights on them, and most from what I have seen in recent years - the lights are integrated as well.

Apart from Road Racing Bikes / Downhill Mountain bikes - pretty much all regular bikes sold in the few German or Dutch bike shops that I have visited over the years when visiting.

They pretty much sell regular bikes with Hub / Hub Dynamo lights as standard from what I have seen.

Agree with tomasrojo on the exceptions, height of rear light on a scooter.... would rather reflectors on pedals any day over that.

ED E

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118191135#Comment_118191135

Possibly, but not sure that section is being updated in relation to PTPs.

ED E

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118167817#Comment_118167817

250W seems insufficient for scooters, judging by published hill tests. I don't know why 250W is fine for a human powered bicycle going up hill but not for a scooter. Maybe the scooter ratings are marketing bs. Someone should dyno a scooter.

It is. Most of the cheapo units on sale currently exceed it for a reason.

^ Jesus 3-4 hour charge time for 13km range ?