rsa supporting e-scooters

rubadub

plodder wrote: »

A scooter isn't a bicycle though, so I don't see how e-bike rules could apply.

Only ebikes which require continual pedalling are allowed, you see lads with strap on petrol motors and some electric kit ones can have throttles so are not allowed.

If you had a scooter which required continual scooting and only powered when it sensed you pusing it off then it could be argued that it is similar. There is at least one model which does this, but the power seems to go on for a fair few seconds after you scoot.

The law is being enforced to some degree, garda have seized loads of scooters. There is no grey area at all, no more than saying the legality of cars or cyclists breaking red lights is a grey area just because you see loads doing it.

Macy0161

ted1 wrote: »

There’s more junkies in town. Should the Gardai take the same approach?

They already do!

plodder

rubadub wrote: »

Only ebikes which require continual pedalling are allowed, you see lads with strap on petrol motors and some electric kit ones can have throttles so are not allowed.

If you had a scooter which required continual scooting and only powered when it sensed you pusing it off then it could be argued that it is similar. There is at least one model which does this, but the power seems to go on for a fair few seconds after you scoot.

The law is being enforced to some degree, garda have seized loads of scooters. There is no grey area at all, no more than saying the legality of cars or cyclists breaking red lights is a grey area just because you see loads doing it.

Agreed.

rubadub

plodder wrote: »

I think even if a mythical scooter existed that only assisted when you were pushing, it would still be illegal, because the 'pedelec' exemption is specifically for bicycles, not scooters.

The only mention of pedelec on www.irishstatutebook.ie is in regards to the bike to work scheme.

The new RSA advise actually suggest that such a scooter would be allowed
https://www.rsa.ie/Documents/VS_Information_Notes/Two_Three_Wheeled_Vehicles/FAQs%20on%20E%20Bikes%20and%20Pedelecs%20and%20battery%20Scooters.pdf

And yes of course I know the RSA are not always right!! Just saying its the only way I can think of them being comparable to pedelecs.

What is the law on eBikes, pedelecs or battery powered scooters? Regardless of the type of bike, its speed or whether it requires a push start, the rules are as follows:
• If it can be powered by mechanical or electrical power alone (i.e. it can continue without you pedalling or scooting it) then it is considered to be a ‘mechanically propelled vehicle’ (MPV).
• Under road traffic law if an MPV is used in a public place it is subject to all of the regulatory controls that apply to other vehicles i.e. it must be roadworthy, registered, taxed and insured.
• The driver of the vehicle must hold the appropriate driving licence and is obliged to wear a crash helmet.

Markcheese

rubadub wrote: »

Only ebikes which require continual pedalling are allowed, you see lads with strap on petrol motors and some electric kit ones can have throttles so are not allowed.

If you had a scooter which required continual scooting and only powered when it sensed you pusing it off then it could be argued that it is similar. There is at least one model which does this, but the power seems to go on for a fair few seconds after you scoot.

The law is being enforced to some degree, garda have seized loads of scooters. There is no grey area at all, no more than saying the legality of cars or cyclists breaking red lights is a grey area just because you see loads doing it.

The pedalec bikes are exempt from being classed as mechanically propelled vehicles... So the Gardaí aren't really looking at electric bikes,
If you ride an electric bike considerably faster than 25kph (or whatever), then you'll be on their radar... It'll be the same with é- scooters, (if they're legalised/ codified), some tit will be zooming along at 40kph on the M50, with no helmet, no lights nothing... And will get busted for it..

plodder

rubadub wrote: »

The only mention of pedelec on www.irishstatutebook.ie is in regards to the bike to work scheme.

The new RSA advise actually suggest that such a scooter would be allowed
https://www.rsa.ie/Documents/VS_Information_Notes/Two_Three_Wheeled_Vehicles/FAQs%20on%20E%20Bikes%20and%20Pedelecs%20and%20battery%20Scooters.pdf

And yes of course I know the RSA are not always right!! Just saying its the only way I can think of them being comparable to pedelecs.

You're right. I remembered seeing something specifically defining pedelecs before, but it is only in relation to BTW scheme.

So, does that mean that the 250W 25km/h limit for ebikes only applies to the BTW scheme, and more powerful e-bikes are otherwise legal, so long as they cut out when you stop pedaling?

tomasrojo

I think the EU definition probably suffices:

Directive 2002/24/EC
Pedelecs with a maximum continuous rated power of more than 0.25 kW and all E-bikes that can be exclusively propelled by the motor do fall within the scope of Directive 2002/24/EC. In this Directive they are classified as low-performance mopeds, i.e. vehicles with pedals, with an auxiliary engine of power not exceeding 1 kW and a maximum design speed not exceeding 25 km/h. As a result, they have to be type-approved but they are excluded from a number of type-approval requirements as listed in Annex I of Directive 2002/24/EC. The note to Annex I sums up the excluded requirements.

Pedelecs with a motor assisting beyond 25 km/h and E-bikes with a maximum design speed exceeding 25 km/h are classified as conventional mopeds (category L1e) and have to be type-approved accordingly.

https://www.bike-eu.com/laws-regulations/artikel/2010/08/eu-regulations-for-e-bikes-pedelecs-part-1-1018836?vakmedianet-approve-cookies=1&_ga=2.140841586.1190331916.1567106316-1248131952.1567106316

That might be out of date now, but I assume you don't necessarily have to define some things in domestic law, if there is an EU equivalent.

tomasrojo

Here's an example (again, maybe out of date), where the UK, before their bid for freedom, were supposed to change their definition to meet the Directive:

Example:
In Great Britan pedelecs with a top speed of 15 mph (22.5 km/h) and 200 Watt motor are classified as bicycles. Pedelecs with a higher top speed or a stronger motor require a type approval.

No later than November 9, 2003, Great Britan must conform to the EU-directive: Pedelecs may have a 250 watt motor and be able to reach a top speed of 16 mph, and still be classified as a bicycle.

http://extraenergy.org/main.php?language=en&id=384

Though that's a bit different, in that Directives have to be translated into domestic law, rather than being a law in their own right. So I suppose we should have a law somewhere that embodies the Directive.

I'm really just guessing here, as you can surely tell.

Zen0

Directives can (or could in the past) be implemented in Irish law through the use of secondary legislation i.e. a statutory instrument signed by the Minister under powers conferred under the European Communities Act. The practice fell foul of the Courts for certain types of Directive (those that could impose a criminal sanction iirc) but I assume this is still an option for certain types of Directive. So the thing could have been done by secondary legislation and wouldn’t appear on the Statute book. It’s a long time since I have dealt with that sort of stuff but that’s the jist of it.

magicbastarder

plodder wrote: »

So, does that mean that the 250W 25km/h limit for ebikes only applies to the BTW scheme

no, the limitation applies the opposite way. there's no link between the regulations on e-bikes applying to the bike to work scheme, but it does operate indirectly in the opposite direction.
the 250W 25km/h reg applies to all e-bikes.
where the limitation applies in the cycle to work scheme is that you're commiting tax fraud if you buy an e-bike which breaches those limits; because legally, it's a moped which you are not allowed purchase on the BTW.

Lumen

It's a mistake to quote bits of legislation out of context.

I tried to work out the law on ebikes and scooters, by inspecting only legislation, and failed.

But IANAL and law is mostly worked out in the courts, and ebikes and scooters don't end up in the courts, and even if they did it would probably be the district courts whose judges aren't the sharpest of tools.

So I am dubious of anyone claiming the law is in any way clear.

plodder

magicbastarder wrote: »

no, the limitation applies the opposite way. there's no link between the regulations on e-bikes applying to the bike to work scheme, but it does operate indirectly in the opposite direction.
the 250W 25km/h reg applies to all e-bikes.
where the limitation applies in the cycle to work scheme is that you're commiting tax fraud if you buy an e-bike which breaches those limits; because legally, it's a moped which you are not allowed purchase on the BTW.

Can you point me to the relevant regulation/law for that?

plodder

tomasrojo wrote: »

That might be out of date now, but I assume you don't necessarily have to define some things in domestic law, if there is an EU equivalent.

As far as I know, you do.

magicbastarder

plodder wrote: »

Can you point me to the relevant regulation/law for that?

this appears to be the *standard* for them, but i suspect not the actual legal declaration that these don't qualify as MPVs.

https://standards.cen.eu/dyn/www/f?p=204:110:0::::FSP_PROJECT,FSP_ORG_ID:37542,6314&cs=11DCF234E608CBEEA798ED6BD89F9CCE5

these appear to be the regulations:
https://ec.europa.eu/growth/sectors/automotive/legislation/motorbikes-trikes-quads_en

Lumen

i crashed a rental e-scooter in Bordeaux a couple of weeks ago whilst experimenting with pothole handling.

I think they're fundamentally dangerous, but that's no reason to maintain their illegal status, because they're also fun, and most fun things are dangerous.

If, however, this legalisation results in mandatory hi-vis being applied to bicycle riding, my grief will be bottomless and my rage will burn like the fire of a thousand suns.

plodder

Lumen wrote: »

i crashed a rental e-scooter in Bordeaux a couple of weeks ago whilst experimenting with pothole handling.

I think they're fundamentally dangerous, but that's no reason to maintain their illegal status, because they're also fun, and most fun things are dangerous.

If, however, this legalisation results in mandatory hi-vis being applied to bicycle riding, my grief will be bottomless and my rage will burn like the fire of a thousand suns.

I think they will be classified differently. It would make no sense to treat them the same as bikes, and there is even a realisation that there isn't a single category of "powered transporter". The pedelec is an exception because of the assistance angle and it really is still a bicycle at heart. if you think about what it would take to make an e-scooter legal (under current rules) it changes them fundamentally, and maybe makes them even more dangerous.

That said of course, I still think they should be legalised and different rules applying to them...

ted1

Lumen wrote: »

It's a mistake to quote bits of legislation out of context.

I tried to work out the law on ebikes and scooters, by inspecting only legislation, and failed.

But IANAL and law is mostly worked out in the courts, and ebikes and scooters don't end up in the courts, and even if they did it would probably be the district courts whose judges aren't the sharpest of tools.

So I am dubious of anyone claiming the law is in any way clear.

???

The law is quite clear in its description of electric bikes...

plodder

ted1 wrote: »

???

The law is quite clear in its description of electric bikes...

Where is it defined though? If it is clear, it has to be written down somewhere.

ted1

plodder wrote: »

Where is it defined though? If it is clear, it has to be written down somewhere.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2005/si/412/made/en/print


(2) These Regulations do not apply to—

d. cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0.25 kW of which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 km/h, or sooner, if the cyclist stops pedalling,






***************************
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2019-03-05/section/389/

I am aware of the increasing use of eScooters, electrically/powered skateboards etc. on our roads. I have requested the Road Safety Authority to research how such vehicles (classified as mechanically propelled vehicles in the Road Traffic Acts) are dealt with (i.e. regulated) in other countries, particularly other Member States. I am keen to understand the road safety implications of the use of such vehicles on public roads, especially when interacting with other vehicles.

I will make a decision on whether or not to amend existing legislation when I have received the outcome of the Authority’s research.

Electric bicycles are a different issue from eScooters. Where a bicycle has an electric motor attached which may be used as an alternate means of propulsion, the vehicle is defined as a mechanically propelled vehicle under the Road Traffic Acts whether or not the motor is being used. However, under Article 1 (h) of EU Directive 2002/24/EC E-bikes are defined as “cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0.25 kW, of which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 km/h, or sooner, if the cyclist stops pedalling”. Legal advice obtained by the Department confirms that as bikes of this type require continuous effort on the part of the cyclist, they are considered to be pedal cycles.

Pedal assisted cycles with a maximum continuous rated power of more than 0.25 kW and E-bikes that can be exclusively propelled by the motor are classified in the Directive as low-performance mopeds, i.e. vehicles with pedals, with an auxiliary engine of power not exceeding 1 kW and a maximum design speed not exceeding 25 km/h. Such vehicles are subject to Road Traffic legislation, with the rider obliged to have registration, tax, insurance, and an appropriate driving licence where the vehicle is to be used in a public place.
************************************

plodder

ted1 wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2005/si/412/made/en/print


(2) These Regulations do not apply to—

d. cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0.25 kW of which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 km/h, or sooner, if the cyclist stops pedalling,






***************************
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2019-03-05/section/389/

I am aware of the increasing use of eScooters, electrically/powered skateboards etc. on our roads. I have requested the Road Safety Authority to research how such vehicles (classified as mechanically propelled vehicles in the Road Traffic Acts) are dealt with (i.e. regulated) in other countries, particularly other Member States. I am keen to understand the road safety implications of the use of such vehicles on public roads, especially when interacting with other vehicles.

I will make a decision on whether or not to amend existing legislation when I have received the outcome of the Authority’s research.

Electric bicycles are a different issue from eScooters. Where a bicycle has an electric motor attached which may be used as an alternate means of propulsion, the vehicle is defined as a mechanically propelled vehicle under the Road Traffic Acts whether or not the motor is being used. However, under Article 1 (h) of EU Directive 2002/24/EC E-bikes are defined as “cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0.25 kW, of which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 km/h, or sooner, if the cyclist stops pedalling”. Legal advice obtained by the Department confirms that as bikes of this type require continuous effort on the part of the cyclist, they are considered to be pedal cycles.

Pedal assisted cycles with a maximum continuous rated power of more than 0.25 kW and E-bikes that can be exclusively propelled by the motor are classified in the Directive as low-performance mopeds, i.e. vehicles with pedals, with an auxiliary engine of power not exceeding 1 kW and a maximum design speed not exceeding 25 km/h. Such vehicles are subject to Road Traffic legislation, with the rider obliged to have registration, tax, insurance, and an appropriate driving licence where the vehicle is to be used in a public place.
************************************

Thanks for the link. So, the regulations above seem to relate to type approvals for 2 and 3 wheel motor vehicles, not pedal cycles, which the bit in bold acknowledges is what pedelecs are (at least for the main purpose of the road traffic acts).

More specifically, even if you accept that the regulation does apply to e-bikes > .25kW or 25 km/h it seems to relate to matters around their sale, not usage .......

I'm not arguing for the sake of it, by the way, and I'm happy to be proved wrong, but I'd really like to pin down where this is defined.

Incidentally, the FAQ document quoted above from the RSA doesn't mention any 25km/h or 250W limit on e-bikes. Obviously, that isn't conclusive either, but it does contribute to the lack of clarity around the issue. Also, it's interesting from the minister's reply, that the legal basis for pedelecs depends on "legal advice" which suggests they weren't 100% clear about it themselves.

CramCycle

plodder wrote: »

Thanks for the link. So, the regulations above seem to relate to type approvals for 2 and 3 wheel motor vehicles, not pedal cycles, which the bit in bold acknowledges is what pedelecs are (at least for the main purpose of the road traffic acts).

More specifically, even if you accept that the regulation does apply to e-bikes > .25kW or 25 km/h it seems to relate to matters around their sale, not usage .......

I'm not arguing for the sake of it, by the way, and I'm happy to be proved wrong, but I'd really like to pin down where this is defined.

Incidentally, the FAQ document quoted above from the RSA doesn't mention any 25km/h or 250W limit on e-bikes. Obviously, that isn't conclusive either, but it does contribute to the lack of clarity around the issue. Also, it's interesting from the minister's reply, that the legal basis for pedelecs depends on "legal advice" which suggests they weren't 100% clear about it themselves.

It reads to me that they are motor vehicles but in the case of ebikes which are under a certain power and are pedal assist, they are exempt from needing to comply with the regulations, ie they are road worthy vehicles, whereas the scooters must comply as they do not have an exemption.

rubadub

There was a long thread on ebikes a few months ago with lots of info about the legality.

Many manufacturers claim the motor is only 250W but in reality it is more, this of course would be hard to spot/test.

Can't remember the details but I came away from it definitely thinking 25km/hr was a definite limit anyway. It was questioned since reputable bike shops are selling ebikes with 45km/hr limits and marketing them as commuters, also questioned since people had difficulty spotting the law that said otherwise but I think it was found in the end.

ED E

rubadub wrote: »

There was a long thread on ebikes a few months ago with lots of info about the legality.

Many manufacturers claim the motor is only 250W but in reality it is more, this of course would be hard to spot/test.

Can't remember the details but I came away from it definitely thinking 25km/hr was a definite limit anyway. It was questioned since reputable bike shops are selling ebikes with 45km/hr limits and marketing them as commuters, also questioned since people had difficulty spotting the law that said otherwise but I think it was found in the end.

Finance No2 of 2008. Not Road Traffic as you'd expect. And as above, pedal cycles only. Not one wheels, not scooters, not trikes.

tomasrojo

plodder wrote: »

As far as I know, you do.

Yeah, I don't know much about it. I know the point of EU Directives is that it's up to the state to decide how to implement them, but there seems to be something called "direct effect" where Directives are treated by the ECJ as if they're already in domestic law when they haven't been implemented, or even if domestic law contradicts them, provided the date by which the Directive was supposed to have been implemented has passed.

EDIT: I think this was the case I was reading about:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pubblico_Ministero_v_Ratti

rubadub

Moflojo wrote: »

Be very wary of the RSA's approach to e-scooters. They appear to be trying to lobby for the wearing of PPE (helmets & hi-vis) as a condition for using e-scooters

I found the actual RSA page
https://www.rsa.ie/en/Utility/News/2019/recommendations-following-the-review-of-current-practice-and-safety-implications-of-electric-mobility-devices/

While I do not propose making PPE mandatory, users should be encouraged to wear helmets and high visibility clothing, as per our recommendation for cyclists.

That Irish Times article was poor, it made it seem they were in favour of footpath use. They also left out the very important speed limit.

Devices permitted on Irish roads should adhere to minimum safety standards e.g. maximum speed of 20km/h. In addition, design features for devices permitted on Irish roads should prioritise safety features, such as brakes, lighting and audible warning mechanisms.

Some jurisdictions allow such devices on footpaths provided they do not exceed a speed of 6km/h. From a practical perspective this would be very difficult to enforce, and therefore because of the risk which the use of these devices would pose to pedestrians if travelling at higher speeds, I recommend that they should not be used on footpaths.

I believe there is merit, also on safety grounds, to limit their use to roads with a speed limit of 50km/h or less. Ideally, their use should be curtailed to 30km/h zones. They could be used in cycle lanes, where available.

magicbastarder

rubadub wrote: »

I found the actual RSA page

an interesting use of the first person there; looks like they published an opinion stated by one person, as if it's the opinion of the whole RSA?

magicbastarder

Senior gardaí concerned over mooted legalisation of e-scooters
Fears include vehicle interaction with cyclists in bike lanes, and speed and helmet criteria
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/senior-garda%C3%AD-concerned-over-mooted-legalisation-of-e-scooters-1.4004425

Salary Negotiator

magicbastarder wrote: »

Senior gardaí concerned over mooted legalisation of e-scooters
Fears include vehicle interaction with cyclists in bike lanes, and speed and helmet criteria
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/senior-garda%C3%AD-concerned-over-mooted-legalisation-of-e-scooters-1.4004425

Heard that this morning, it’s a bit ironic considering they don’t seem to share the same concerns about the actual and in many cases intentional dangers created by poor driving.

CramCycle

As I cycled through estates in South Dublin this morning, I seen a few e-scooters, but can only remember one of them. It reminds me of what some motorists see of cyclists, and what some cyclists see of motorists. We forget the 95% who are reasonably safe and cause no harm, we interact with them almost by instinct, with very little personal interaction, basically, safe but forgettable for the most part. Then you have that one Tulip, so astounding in their ignorance, attitude, and often simply down right laziness that they are all you can remember. This one guy came through the lights at a T while pedestrians had a green. Seeing someone lean into a turn like they were riding the Manx TT while doing 15kmph was interesting, not as interesting had it been 2 seconds earlier and they hit the two kids crossing but how and ever. Come to the bottom of the hill and he stops but edges across the line, waiting for the clear path. A green is 15seconds away but he sees his few seconds and guns it, at walking pace. At least he could hop off and run if the car didn't slow for him. Straight through the next yellow, and then left on red like a pro :rolleyes: into crossing traffic. It is like watching a nature documentary where all the rules say he should get hit or hit something, that Darwinism will win out, but he escapes and lives on to scoot another day.

This is my impression of scooterists for the day, it is biased, unfair on those who are reasonable and safe, and people must remember to look around and see, that for every assh*t, there are 19 people who are civil and just want to get where they are going safely, for them and others. I'd be happy if gardai just busted assh@ts under driving without due consideration and the punishment for that was for the scooter to be siezed and donated to something or someone else.

Duckjob

magicbastarder wrote: »

Senior gardaí concerned over mooted legalisation of e-scooters
Fears include vehicle interaction with cyclists in bike lanes, and speed and helmet criteria
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/senior-garda%C3%AD-concerned-over-mooted-legalisation-of-e-scooters-1.4004425

It never ceases to fascinate me how sensitised certain people can be towards "potential" (one might say "unproven") dangers involving anything that is not a car and at the same time be completely desensitised, and frankly blind, to the very real and very proven dangers involving cars and driver behaviours.