Fire in Douglas - See Mod note in post #506

Cork Trucker

kub wrote: »

Perhaps they subbed it out to JD's because I saw one of their trucks being escorted through the back log by a Garda motor cyclist.

You are correct about resources, but if for example, there was a big event on such as a match or some big gathering in the city centre, then it will be policed adequately.
The N40 is as we all know jammed on a daily basis, in these vehicles there are hundreds of people, it has an obvious economic effect also it is a primary route for Ambulances to one of this country's main A&E's.

It is ridiculous that Garda management cannot just put a single Garda on a motorcycle to be there, during rush hours and be ready to intervene in the Event of even a fender bender, that could cause havoc neverlone something more serious.

Fitzpatrick's & JD both have Garda contracts, unless their boundaries have changed due to the recent extension and this is the reason for it, in saying that both of their depots are on the same plot of land in Noeth Esk.

In relation to events, that is funded by either City Hall, the GAA or indeed whoever else that may be, so it isn't coming from the Garda budget.

The N40 has been a hive of activity for all the wriong reasons this morning.

Emergency services even have great difficulty getting through the traffic with bues and twos on.

Harika

Harika wrote: »

http://www.redfm.ie/news/cork/the-car-that-started-a-huge-blaze-at-douglas-village-shopping-centre-was-not-on-fire-when-it-entered-the-multi-storey-car-park/

The center manager

Is the CCTV so good that it can "prove" there was no smoke, "Manager of the shopping centre Bartosz Mieszala says despite initial reports that smoke was seen coming from the car as it entered the car park, CCTV footage from the centre proves that was not the case. "

http://www.redfm.ie/news/cork/the-car-that-started-a-huge-blaze-at-douglas-village-shopping-centre-was-not-on-fire-when-it-entered-the-multi-storey-car-park/

And, no offence to Bartosz but he's no fire chief etc etc etc.

grogi

Augeo wrote: »

Is the CCTV so good that it can "prove" there was no smoke, "Manager of the shopping centre Bartosz Mieszala says despite initial reports that smoke was seen coming from the car as it entered the car park, CCTV footage from the centre proves that was not the case. "

http://www.redfm.ie/news/cork/the-car-that-started-a-huge-blaze-at-douglas-village-shopping-centre-was-not-on-fire-when-it-entered-the-multi-storey-car-park/

And, no offence to Bartosz but he's no fire chief etc etc etc.

Shouldn't it be Mr Mieszala?!

grogi

grogi wrote: »

Shouldn't it be Mr Mieszala?!

Why should it be?

dulpit

Augeo wrote: »

Is the CCTV so good that it can "prove" there was no smoke, "Manager of the shopping centre Bartosz Mieszala says despite initial reports that smoke was seen coming from the car as it entered the car park, CCTV footage from the centre proves that was not the case. "

http://www.redfm.ie/news/cork/the-car-that-started-a-huge-blaze-at-douglas-village-shopping-centre-was-not-on-fire-when-it-entered-the-multi-storey-car-park/

And, no offence to Bartosz but he's no fire chief etc etc etc.

So unsubstantiated rumours > the manager who'd be in the know?

dulpit

dulpit wrote: »

So unsubstantiated rumours > the manager who'd be in the know?

The manager claims CCTV footage from the centre proves that smoke was not seen coming from the car as it entered the car park. I'd not consider that overly concrete as proof to be honest.

It's as unsubstantiated as any rumour really.

dulpit

Augeo wrote: »

The manager claims CCTV footage from the centre proves that smoke was not seen coming from the car as it entered the car park. I'd not consider that overly concrete as proof to be honest.

It's as unsubstantiated as any rumour really.

It's not a rumour when it comes from the source of the CCTV, no? What end does it serve by saying the car wasn't smoking if it was?

dulpit

dulpit wrote: »

It's not a rumour when it comes from the source of the CCTV, no? What end does it serve by saying the car wasn't smoking if it was?

I would be of the view that no smoke shown on the CCTV isn't proof that there was actually no smoke.

As the car went on fire shortly after driving into the centre, and it's widely accepted the source of the fire was the car itself I would think it's certainly not difficult to accept that perhaps the car was smoking as it entered but that this cannot be seen from CCTV.

Again, it's the centre manager speaking from viewing the CCTV, literally it matters SFA what he saw or didn't see.

I didn't say it's a rumour, I said it's as unsubstantiated as any roumour..... CCTV footage is rarely as good as one would like it to be. My point is essentially that I don't believe CCTV footage can prove what he claims it has done "CCTV footage from the centre proves that was not the case"

zilog_jones

If it was the known issue with the blower resistor pack in the Zafira, smoke would be flowing into the cabin of the car first. It wouldn't be easy to identify that from CCTV footage.

the beer revolu

Either the car was smoking on entering the carpark or it wasn't.
No one here knows for sure whether it was or it wasn't.
We have no reliable evidence or report that it was smoking.
We have a reliable report that it was not smoking on entering (not bullet proof evidence, granted).

Why are people so keen to believe that it was on fire/smoking going in?
Is it because it's a juicy story?
Is it because it involves someone doing something kinda dumb?
Or is it because people spread the rumour gleefully and don't want to be wrong?

I don't get it.

the beer revolu

the beer revolu wrote: »

.............
We have a reliable report that it was not smoking on entering (not bullet proof evidence, granted)........................

This report was described as "proof".
What's reliable about CCTV viewing ? I don't get why this is deemed so reliable. CCTV is rarely as good as you'd like it to be.

airy fairy

Passed earlier, as a passenger!
The place looks shambolic!
I honestly can't see how they're going to patch up certain areas of the structure without compromising the rest.
The smoke and fire clearly licked through the concrete floors, fire damage clear to be seen.

the beer revolu

Augeo wrote: »

This report was described as "proof".
What's reliable about CCTV viewing ? I don't get why this is deemed so reliable. CCTV is rarely as good as you'd like it to be.

Why do you want the car smoking on entry to be the truth?

the beer revolu

the beer revolu wrote: »

Why do you want the car smoking on entry to be the truth?

I never suggested I "want" that at all.
I'm merely pointing out that the manager's comments are based on viewing CCTV so aren't proof of anything.

Do you want the car not smoking on entry to be the truth?

the beer revolu

Augeo wrote: »

Do you want the car not smoking on entry to be the truth?

It's the option with some evidence for it.
The other option has nothing backing it up.

But the stupid woman driving into the car park with her car on fire is a much better story!

the beer revolu

the beer revolu wrote: »

............
But the stupid woman driving into the car park with her car on fire is a much better story!

As mentioned by someone if it was the suspected blower resistor pack in the Zafira, smoke would be flowing into the cabin of the car first. The car wouldn't appear to be on fire as such

I can see why the shopping centre manager is very keen to "prove" the car wasn't smoking on entry .......... this ladies account of events suggests that when it was actually on fire things were still quite chillaxed in the centre.......

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/everything-was-moving-very-slowly-shopper-describes-fire-which-engulfed-douglas-car-park-947529.html

"I could see a small fire and some smoke. I was a little nervous because at that stage I didn't know where it was coming from so I turned my car back in the opposite direction. I was at the junction where you can turn right to exit or turn left to head towards Level Two. I parked further down on Level One and got out to see what was happening. I wish now I had parked further away.


.....



"I could see a small fire and some smoke. I was a little nervous because at that stage I didn't know where it was coming from so I turned my car back in the opposite direction. I was at the junction where you can turn right to exit or turn left to head towards Level Two. I parked further down on Level One and got out to see what was happening. I wish now I had parked further away.


"At that point, there was a couple of people standing around looking at what was happening. At first, I thought maybe there was a fire in Dennehy's Gym but a man said it was a car. There were shoppers returning to their cars and the group of people watching grew.

"There was no panic at all at that stage. It was around 7pm. About 20-25 people had gathered. I did not hear a fire alarm going off and no sprinklers came on. We were standing around for about 10 minutes watching," she said.

Ms Forde, from Rochestown Road, said she saw just one security guard at that point and no-one seemed to be moving. Then the security guard started to move people along.

"My impression was that everything was moving very slowly. The reaction was slow. It did not look as if the fire was being dealt with," she said.

The security guard moved the shoppers towards the travelator. Ms Forde said the smoke had started to thicken. As they made their way to the travelator she didn't notice a steel door lowering and she hit her head. The shoppers were then asked to leave their shopping at the top of the travelator and to go downstairs. They were told the fire brigade was on the way."

TheChizler

The first rumour I heard was that the cctv showed the car smoking at it went in, it kind of disproves that one.

zilog_jones

run_Forrest_run wrote: »

sprinklers are already fitted in areas where sprinklers would have an effect, they would have done nothing to stop what happened.

It was posted somewhere here (or in a similar thread) where an assessment was done on a similar recent car park fire in the UK, and it was suggested sprinklers could have effectively mitigated the spread of fire, or at the very least have reduced temperatures in the area of the fire.

Sprinklers would invariably have slowed down what happened....perhaps to an extent that when the fire brigade arrived they'd have had a smaller issue.

run_Forrest_run

zilog_jones wrote: »

It was posted somewhere here (or in a similar thread) where an assessment was done on a similar recent car park fire in the UK, and it was suggested sprinklers could have effectively mitigated the spread of fire, or at the very least have reduced temperatures in the area of the fire.

it was also posted here that given the type of fire and the stuff that comes out of sprinklers they would have had no impact mitigating the spread of the fire, anyway, as the old fella says, that ship has sailed.

zilog_jones

What evidence are you referring to? Was there anything to back up such claims?

run_Forrest_run wrote: »

...the stuff that comes out of sprinklers...

It's called water And you know what the fire brigade used to put out the fire?

https://www.engineersireland.ie/EngineersIreland/media/SiteMedia/groups/Divisions/structures/SCOSS-Alert-Fire-in-Multi-Storey-Car-Parks.pdf?ext=.pdf

• A sprinkler system was effective at controlling a developing fire.
• A sprinkler system was equally as effective at controlling a fully developed fire.
• Without sprinklers, fire is likely to spread from car to car.
• With sprinklers, spread of fire is unlikely.

The NFCC (UK National Fire Chiefs Council) recommend that consideration is given to installing sprinklers in open sided car parks to protect
property, including the fabric of the building. While there have been few incidences of fatalities in car parks,
there have been recorded fatalities to firefighters due to structural collapse abroad.

If it meant a sprinkler system could have prevented structural damage to the car park, that would have made a significant difference to this whole mess.

A car going on fire shouldn't really result in a shopping centre being out of business for 12 months.
There are posters here seemingly defiant that nothing could have been done to avoid this.

Sprinklers wouldn't have helped ? :pac:
Sweet Jebus ........... that's laughable.

It wasn't mandated by law to install them in Douglas so therefore they weren't ....... some RA was no doubt carried out ......fair enough. To argue sprinklers wouldn't have resulted in less damage is totally and utterly ridiculous....... or do we need the centre's manager's view on this ?

zilog_jones

Well, everyone was safely evacuated from the building and there were no injuries - safety was acceptable by those standards.

It's the structural damage leading to loss of services and business that was not considered. It will be interesting to see if sprinklers or something else is implemented in a different way when it is reconstructed.

marno21

Westbound carriageway backed up to the Douglas flyover from the tunnel mouth atm.

Something badly needs to get done to address it

Cork Trucker

marno21 wrote: »

Westbound carriageway backed up to the Douglas flyover from the tunnel mouth atm.

Something badly needs to get done to address it

I got stuck in it in the last hour, nearly had a van drive into the back of me.

Cork Trucker

Cork Trucker wrote: »

I got stuck in it in the last hour, nearly had a van drive into the back of me.

It’s insane...the minute you pass Tesco it starts moving. They have to do something about it

Cork Trucker

Armando Spicy Smugness wrote: »

It’s insane...the minute you pass Tesco it starts moving. They have to do something about it

Yeah, i was coming from the N28 to the N40 via Bloomfield, As you say, once you pass Tesco the speed picks up again, i thought with the day that was in it traffic may have been backed up from the KRR, but nope, rubberneckers galore, sadly i don't see anything being done about it unless there is a fatality as a result and even then there will be some excuse not to erect a screen.

beer enigma

Saw this in the paper during the week, fairly extensive demolition

Sonics2k

Rubber necking has always been bad in Cork, but lately it's been even worse.

Someones going to end up seriously hurt because of this.

dulpit

Wonder if either of those cars will survive?

beer enigma

At the contractor meeting this afternoon Gardai have confirmed that the contractors are to erect screening to prevent the rubbernecking.

grogi

beer enigma wrote: »

At the contractor meeting this afternoon Gardai have confirmed that the contractors are to erect screening to prevent the rubbernecking.

Great news - but why the hell is this pushed onto contractors? Motorway maintenance should be responsible for that...

Markcheese

Thanks be to....
It'll still take a week or so to get back to normal...
And Christmas traffic is probably kicking in...

Ludo

They will prob put big ads on the hoarding which people will slow down to read.

beer enigma

Ludo wrote: »

They will prob put big ads on the hoarding which people will slow down to read.

I remember a good few years back in London they put a wonderbra advert on a billboard and the accident rate went through the roof, they had to remove it

Markcheese

beer enigma wrote: »

I remember a good few years back in London they put a wonderbra advert on a billboard and the accident rate went through the roof, they had to remove it

What? The bra ? That would have increased the accident rate...

murphym7

beer enigma wrote: »

At the contractor meeting this afternoon Gardai have confirmed that the contractors are to erect screening to prevent the rubbernecking.

Thankfully common sense has prevailed, maybe our little thread made a difference (probably not), still, very happy this is finally going to be erected.

Ironically we'll have a slow down and rubbernecking while the screen is installed as people slow to look at the screen going up!

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Its-amazing-nobody-has-been-killed-Screen-to-be-erected-at-Douglas-flyover-fcaaf812-5245-46a3-abb8-9876761340e5-ds

beer enigma

murphym7 wrote: »

Thankfully common sense has prevailed, maybe our little thread made a difference (probably not), still, very happy this is finally going to be erected.

Ironically we'll have a slow down and rubbernecking while the screen is installed as people slow to look at the screen going up!

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Its-amazing-nobody-has-been-killed-Screen-to-be-erected-at-Douglas-flyover-fcaaf812-5245-46a3-abb8-9876761340e5-ds

Our little thread did indeed get thrown into the mix

TheChizler

I remain to be convinced, there was always a slowdown there, even before the shopping centre was built.

kub

The scaffolding for the screen is flying up.

beer enigma

Heard this morning from someone I know (reliable) in the retail trade that TK Maxx have indicated they have no interest in going back into the centre when it reopens. There's apparently a minimum tenancy agreement but that would have expired by the time (if) the centre reopens. With Born now in Mahon and Merchants Quay I can't see them going back in either.

Cork Trucker

beer enigma wrote: »

Heard this morning from someone I know (reliable) in the retail trade that TK Maxx have indicated they have no interest in going back into the centre when it reopens. There's apparently a minimum tenancy agreement but that would have expired by the time (if) the centre reopens. With Born now in Mahon and Merchants Quay I can't see them going back in either.

Would be good to get an idea of exactly how many of the existing units will reopen.

the dark phantom

TheChizler wrote: »

I remain to be convinced, there was always a slowdown there, even before the shopping centre was built.

Those who suffer from the 'fear' slam on the brakes when they realise there is no hard shoulder there, Its all too much for their feeble brains to take in.

beer enigma

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Would be good to get an idea of exactly how many of the existing units will reopen.

It's the anchor ones that could affect it although the smaller units in the middle took the bigger hit on livelihoods.

O'Briens always did a good trade, but apart from traffic through Tesco, I don't remember seeing many of the others jammed so will be interesting. M&S always seemed quiet, especially the cafe, Starbucks you could always get a seat, new chemist opposite the centre could do for the one that was there. Bresnans are unlikely to go back in, no Born, and with Lidl opening as well.

Will be interesting

snotboogie

beer enigma wrote: »

It's the anchor ones that could affect it although the smaller units in the middle took the bigger hit on livelihoods.

O'Briens always did a good trade, but apart from traffic through Tesco, I don't remember seeing many of the others jammed so will be interesting. M&S always seemed quiet, especially the cafe, Starbucks you could always get a seat, new chemist opposite the centre could do for the one that was there. Bresnans are unlikely to go back in, no Born, and with Lidl opening as well.

Will be interesting

I got a delivery from Bresnans a few weeks ago and he said he had been trying to get into Douglas Court for weeks but they wouldn't take his calls! Not sure on your other takes, I always though Starbucks were doing a far better trade than O'Briens, M&S just expanded before the fire, really doubtful that they were struggling. Ultimately as long as they get Tesco, M&S and TK Max back, others will follow.

Truckermal

dulpit wrote: »

Wonder if either of those cars will survive?

I thought all those cars were removed..

the beer revolu

the dark phantom wrote: »

Those who suffer from the 'fear' slam on the brakes when they realise there is no hard shoulder there, Its all too much for their feeble brains to take in.

The incline of the flyover seems to slow some, too.

kub

the beer revolu wrote: »

The incline of the flyover seems to slow some, too.

It is a section of road that does have what road engineers call ' Phantom Traffic Jams '


Here is an explanation of same


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3iOE_ymE_w


I cannot help but imagine the fun ahead of us all there when the motorway from Ringaskiddy slips west bound to join the constant stream that will be coming up from Dunkettle..........in 50 or so years time

Chris_5339762

The weeks of rubbernecking are likely a good indication of what traffic on the south ring will be like once Dunkettle is done and the M28 is built. Blocked up to the tunnel both rush hours.

zilog_jones

Truckermal wrote: »

I thought all those cars were removed..

Cars in structurally compromised areas were not removed, except for the car that started the fire.