Replay: All Ireland SFC Final Dublin v Kerry Saturday 14/09/2019 @ 6pm

RedDevil55

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Not really because London is there as well.
Also O'Connor has played in a lot a qualifiers which pushed up his number of games. Mayo were knocked out early in Connacht a few times recently.
It only stands to reason that the quality of opposition is even lower in the qualifiers leading to more scores.
Plus as I said what real competition does O'Connor have to his freetaking.
It is pure massaging of the stats.

Even this year there was a tussle between Rock and Costello as Dublin's starting freetaker. That has not happened for years in Mayo. Maybe Mortimer and McDonald?
Kerry have O'Shea, Clifford etc

I would like to see a breakdown of O'Connor's scores from play and who they were scored against.

There was an article in the mayo news showing that Cillian's scoring rate increases from the quarter finals onwards. He didn't play against New York this year. The only championship game he failed to score in was vs London in 2016 (black carded in 1st half). Cillian missed most of the qualifiers this year in case anyone has forgotten. Only played round 4 against div 1 side Galway. Gooch also played in numerous qualifiers.

Anyway I'm not comparing players just pointing that out.

gormdubhgorm

jr86 wrote: »

Ha so true - think O'Connor has only played New York once?

OK look at the games where he scored hattricks of goals.

He scored 3-3 against London in a Connaght final 2013
He got 3 goals against Donegal in the AI QF 2013 v Donegal
3 goals against Limerick in 2018.

The only one that seems impressive there for me the Donegal one.


Now factor in the competition he has for free-taking contrasted against the other top counties
Dublin, Kerry, Donegal. Tyrone
It is just not the same.

gormdubhgorm

JRant wrote: »

I'm pretty sure St Cillian of the elbows O'Connor wasn't playing yesterday lads and had little to no impact on the entire championship.

That O'Shea fella for Kerry will beat O'Connor easy at the rate he is going.
Never seems to power them as well.
Reminds me of Byran Sheehan.

Fr Tod Umptious

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Not really because London is there as well.
Also O'Connor has played in a lot a qualifiers which pushed up his number of games. Mayo were knocked out early in Connacht a few times recently.
It only stands to reason that the quality of opposition is even lower in the qualifiers leading to more scores.
Plus as I said what real competition does O'Connor have to his freetaking.
It is pure massaging of the stats.

Even this year there was a tussle between Rock and Costello as Dublin's starting freetaker. That has not happened for years in Mayo. Maybe Mortimer and McDonald?
Kerry have O'Shea, Clifford etc

I would like to see a breakdown of O'Connor's scores from play and who they were scored against.

Some things here for you to read, make of it what you will.
https://www.mayonews.ie/sports/34001-cillian-o-connor-makes-gaa-history

This was up to and including the Kerry game this year when he broke the record.

70% from placed balls
Highest average (of teams he has played more than once) is 8.4 v Dublin.
Got to the record with 30 games to spare over Cooper (and don't tell me Copper did not go deep in the championship, if I recall Kerry even went back door in 2002, 2006, and 2009 at least)

gormdubhgorm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

OK look at the games where he scored hattricks of goals.

He scored 3-3 against London in a Connaght final 2013
He got 3 goals against Donegal in the AI QF 2013 v Donegal
3 goals against Limerick in 2018.

The only one that seems impressive there for me the Donegal one.


Now factor in the competition he has for free-taking contrasted against the other top counties
Dublin, Kerry, Donegal. Tyrone
It is just not the same.

You are really stretching it now. Kerry get to play Limerick every other year, Gooch must of been scoring 3 goals against them every time he played them if its so easy. SOS will likely surpass him at some point, but he is only 27 yet. You should give credit where it is deserved, he is a consistent high scorer for several years.

Fr Tod Umptious

What ever about Cillian O' Connor who had nothing to do with last night, the poor shooting return from what is supposed to be the best forwards in the country in both final games should not be ignored.

It was called on on dontfoul before the last game, Kerry's inside shooting performance is poor.

gormdubhgorm

Deleted User wrote: »

You are really stretching it now. Kerry get to play Limerick every other year, Gooch must of been scoring 3 goals against them every time he played them if its so easy??

Maybe he did I don't know. But when there is only one top dog forward everything has to go through the one fella - frees the lot.

Kerry have had loads of them so it is an unfair comparison when one fella hogs the frees - like in Mayo's case.

If anything when playing Dublin I would be worried if Keegan or McLoughin got the ball. O'Connor never seemed to be the danger from an opponents points of view. Mostly only saw him when a free was awarded. Not only that he missed the real crunch ones more often than not.

O'Connor's equaliser from play in the 2016 draw final seems like more an exception rather than the rule.

Happyilylost

Fr Tod Umptious wrote:

What ever about Cillian O' Connor who had nothing to do with last night, the poor shooting return from what is supposed to be the best forwards in the country in both final games should not be ignored.

Fr Tod Umptious wrote:

It was called on on dontfoul before the last game, Kerry's inside shooting performance is poor.

I'm not sure that's fair analysis. Clifford and Geaney must of had eight or nine points between them from play? Poor Kerry shooting for me seemed to be panic when players shot who shouldn't be shooting. Moran must of had three. O Sullivan, Barry I think shot ones too. One thing Dublin are phenomenal at is recycling the ball till a marksman is on the ball or creating an open that is a tap over for a lesser player. Kerrys inside forwards weren't the losing of the game.

RedDevil55

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Maybe he did I don't know. But when there is only one top dog forward everything has to go through the one fella - frees the lot.

Kerry have had loads of them so it is an unfair comparison when one fella hogs the frees - like in Mayo's case.

If anything when playing Dublin I would be worried if Keegan or McLoughin got the ball. O'Connor never seemed to be the danger from an opponents points of view. Mostly only saw him when a free was awarded. Not only that he missed the real crunch ones more often than not.

O'Connor's equaliser from play in the 2016 draw final seems like more an exception rather than the rule.

I would consider Andy Moran a "top dog" forward, but maybe that's just me.

Cillian got 3 points from play in the 2017 final, 2 of which were in the last 10 minutes. Has got big scores (points and goals) from play against Kerry over the years too. Also, as you pointed out yourself, a hat trick against the all Ireland champions Donegal in 2013. People rarely notice the number of assists he gets either. Think he set up 4 points from play against Donegal in the super 8s.

PressRun

RedDevil55 wrote: »

I would consider Andy Moran a "top dog" forward, but maybe that's just me.

Cillian got 3 points from play in the 2017 final, 2 of which were in the last 10 minutes. Has got big scores (points and goals) from play against Kerry over the years too. Also, as you pointed out yourself, a hat trick against the all Ireland champions Donegal in 2013. People rarely notice the number of assists he gets either. Think he set up 4 points from play against Donegal in the super 8s.

This is something people don't pay attention to at all when it comes to him. He's involved in everything, setting up scores and playing others into scoring positions. Say whatever you want about his temperment, but he's a smart man and reads the game well. Mayo are poorer when he's not there.

Not even sure how this turned into a discussion about Cillian O'Connor anyway. People trying to argue with facts again.

RoyalCelt

Is there no thread on here for the Ladies championship? Huge crowd at the finals today.

RedDevil55

PressRun wrote: »

This is something people don't pay attention to at all when it comes to him. He's involved in everything, setting up scores and playing others into scoring positions. Say whatever you want about his temperment, but he's a smart man and reads the game well. Mayo are poorer when he's not there.

Not even sure how this turned into a discussion about Cillian O'Connor anyway. People trying to argue with facts again.

Absolutely. Just thinking back to the Donegal game this summer, Cillian scored 1-4 and assisted another 4. That's a direct involvement in 1-8 of our 1-14 total yet his performance wasn't mentioned. All the plaudits went to Durcan, O'Shea and Moran.

Anyway, I've derailed the thread enough!

BonnieSituation

galwaylad14 wrote: »

This is awfully radical but does football need a shot clock? From being at the game it just seems like it’s too easy to retain possession and do nothing with it. Once Dublin got in front they had no urgency to their play at all and just held possession until they worked a simple shot. Was very frustrating to watch at times I thought.

But Dublin did something with it. Everytime.

Working a simple shot? So what? You'd rather we just did a Kerry and kick ridiculous shots and wides from all over the pitch.

The way we made space with the patient passing was just wondrous. Causing impatience and then "BANG!", off we went.

A shot clock is a ridiculous idea and yet another one to throw at Dublin when it was Kerry who failed to get the ball back. A couple of times when they did try, they managed to cause us trouble and get the ball and break.

Anyway... It's good to see this is the new strawman we have now to deal with for this year.

BonnieSituation

TheCitizen wrote: »

Yes they are different games. However Soccer and Gaelic Football are also different games but what you have now is Dublin playing a brand of possession football like what Barcelona did in soccer.

The problem is in Gaelic Football you can keep it longer using hand passes and fielding. You’ve got Cluxton with pin point kick outs and so the element of 50/50 ball with matched up players around the pitch is minimised.

Dublin have perfected it to their own benefit which is great for them but for neutrals they’re choking the life out of the game. If there’s no compulsion on them to attack they can tip it around the pitch wearing out the opposition and killing the game, which would be normal with a few minutes left but if it’s happening with 20 minutes left then you’ve got a serious problem with Gaelic Football as a spectacle.

Did you come away from that game yesterday and the first day out thinking it wasn't a great game or enjoyable?

BonnieSituation

TheCitizen wrote: »

That’s what I said a couple of pages back. Yes it is radical, and we know the GAA are notoriously resistant to change, but yes a shot clock is necessary In Gaelic Football now. Otherwise as a spectator sport it’s dead.

Loads of spectators there yesterday had a great day. Why do people constantly look for something to moan about after a spectacle like that?

Where were you last week with your shot clock ideas? Jesus.

BonnieSituation

TheCitizen wrote: »

If they do nothing it’s dead. The game is evolving as all games do, the GAA are usually to slow to keep up with the game evolving.

I think you should go back to watching more soccer.

How you took "Gaelic football is dead" from yesterday is beyond me.

I'm sure you'll stick around for the rest of the year to tell us more of your ideas.

sk9

Some ****e about COC being spouted here (and I'm a Dubs fan)


Rank Player Team Scores Tally Games Era Average

1 Cillian O'Connor Mayo 25-298 373 55 games 2011- 6.8

2 Colm Cooper Kerry 23-283 352 84 games 2002-2017 4.1

3 Mikey Sheehy Kerry 29-205 292 49 games 1973-1988 6.0

4 John Doyle Kildare 8-260 284 67 games 1999-2014 4.2

5 Pádraic Joyce Galway 12-229 265 66 games 1997-2012 4.0

6 Bernard Brogan Dublin 21-197 260 59 games 2006- 4.4

7 Paddy Bradley Derry 17-202 253 44 games 1999-2012 5.8

8 Steven McDonnell Armagh 18-197 251 67 games 1999-2011 3.7

9 Maurice Fitzgerald Kerry 12-205 241 45 games 1988-2001 5.4

10 Conor McManus Monaghan 7-227 248 56 games 2005- 4.5

11 Brian Stafford Meath 9-206 233 41 games 1986-1995 5.7

12 Oisin McConville Armagh 11-197 230 52 games 1994-2008 4.4

13 Jimmy Keaveney Dublin 15-182 227 42 games 1964-1980 5.4

14 Dean Rock Dublin 9-199 226 41 games 2013- 5.5

15 Peter Canavan Tyrone 9-192 219 58 games 1989-2005 3.8

16 Sean Cavanagh Tyrone 9-181 208 89 games 2002-2017 2.3

17 Michael Murphy Donegal 4-195 207 54 games 2007- 3.7

18 Colin Corkery Cork 5-182 197 32 games 1993-2004 6.2

19 Ross Munnelly Laois 6-174 192 74 games 2003- 2.6

20 Dara O'Cinneide Kerry 11-149 182 54 games 1995-2005 3.4


The stats speak for themselves. How a top scoring player is not considered as a top player by some people here is beyond me.

BonnieSituation

TheCitizen wrote: »

Yep. They need to do something about it. A shot clock was my suggestion but they need some kind of mechanism to force/encourage a team to continue to attack even when they’re ahead to make it more possible and frequent for turnovers of possession.

This is literally the first time that "keep-ball" has become the cry of the pearl clutchers. And you're making out it's been and ongoing problem for a long stint that "they" need to do something about "it".

BonnieSituation

TheCitizen wrote: »

Holding the ball with a couple of minutes left is natural. Holding the ball with 25 minutes left kills the game for spectators, for TV companies. Contrast with hurling which is a brilliant end to end game. Gaelic Football just mimicking soccer isn’t the way to go if they care about the game being attractive for viewers and supporters.

Did you watch the AIH final? It was dire.

BonnieSituation

fergus1001 wrote: »

both teams were as guilty as each other on this and ruined the game for us neutrals

Oh my God, quick, get onto Peter and Jim and tell them they ruined the game for ye.

That's a cast iron motion for Congress right there.

BonnieSituation

JRant wrote: »

If holding on to the ball is so easy then why don't other teams do it more.

I'll tell you why, it's incredibly difficult to do it and is easier to have lads fall back into a blanket defense. It takes a lot of movement and skill to hold on to it for 3 minutes in a game.

It also needs to be said that the onus is on the defending team to win it back not be gifted it by a stupid shot clock or other such drivel.

You want the ball, earn it. Push up, tackle hard, take chances, track runners etc. It's not rocket science.

Perfect retort.

pimpmyhat

RoyalCelt wrote: »

Is there no thread on here for the Ladies championship? Huge crowd at the finals today.

Obviously not.

Seadin

Anyone know in the rte montage after the Saturday game about the dublin five in a row. There is a clip of cluxton wheelan and alan Brogan watching and involved in a training session. Anyone know what year that was taken? Cluxton looked very young in it, im guessing early 2000s?

RoyalCelt

Seadin wrote: »

Anyone know in the rte montage after the Saturday game about the dublin five in a row. There is a clip of cluxton wheelan and alan Brogan watching and involved in a training session. Anyone know what year that was taken? Cluxton looked very young in it, im guessing early 2000s?

Back in the amateur days. Leinster was something else back then.

Seadin

RoyalCelt wrote: »

Back in the amateur days. Leinster was something else back then.

Between 1998 and 2006 i be thinking.

TheCitizen

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

As always your posts make no sense and end in disappointment :pac:

Not sure about that. I think I made an impression on the Bonnie Situation there:pac:

TheCitizen

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Did you come away from that game yesterday and the first day out thinking it wasn't a great game or enjoyable?

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Loads of spectators there yesterday had a great day. Why do people constantly look for something to moan about after a spectacle like that?

Where were you last week with your shot clock ideas? Jesus.

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I think you should go back to watching more soccer.

How you took "Gaelic football is dead" from yesterday is beyond me.

I'm sure you'll stick around for the rest of the year to tell us more of your ideas.

BonnieSituation wrote: »

This is literally the first time that "keep-ball" has become the cry of the pearl clutchers. And you're making out it's been and ongoing problem for a long stint that "they" need to do something about "it".

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Did you watch the AIH final? It was dire.

Here Bonnie. I saw some of the Womens Gaelic Football game there. They have hooters to call time, they're more advanced than the mens game. All they need is a shot clock and they'd be making huge advances.

gormdubhgorm

Seadin wrote: »

Anyone know in the rte montage after the Saturday game about the dublin five in a row. There is a clip of cluxton wheelan and alan Brogan watching and involved in a training session. Anyone know what year that was taken? Cluxton looked very young in it, im guessing early 2000s?

I think I know when it was it was from a behined the scenes documentary back in 2005 when Pillar Caffery was in charge - "The Dubs: The Story of a Season"

On RTE player still -

https://www.rte.ie/player/movie/the-dubs-the-story-of-a-season/76848680330

Also on a facebook page -

https://www.facebook.com/HumansofGAA/videos/documentary-the-dubs-the-story-of-a-season/1623506171101474/

To be honest even as Dub I found it a bit embarrassing at the time - as Dublin got thier own documentary, but had really done nothing to deserve it.
I remember they had the players nicknames in brackets in the captions.
Stephen Cluxton 'Clucko' etc

Seadin

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I think I know when it was it was from a behined the scenes documentary back in 2005 when Pillar Caffery was in charge - "The Dubs: The Story of a Season"

On RTE player still -

https://www.rte.ie/player/movie/the-dubs-the-story-of-a-season/76848680330

Also on a facebook page -

https://www.facebook.com/HumansofGAA/videos/documentary-the-dubs-the-story-of-a-season/1623506171101474/

To be honest even as Dub I found it a bit embarrassing at the time - as Dublin got thier own documentary, but had really done nothing to deserve it.
I remember they had the players nicknames in brackets in the captions.
Stephen Cluxton 'Clucko' etc

Pillar did alot of damage to Dublin at the time i thought. They were dark days for Dublin football. His handling of the 2006 semi against Mayo summed him up for me. He shouldered one of the mayo selectors when mayo warmed up in front of the hill. He should have got on with business and beat Mayo on the scoreboard. He was beaten before the ball was thrown in.

Gilroy came along then and made a great job of the team. He was very likeable modest and with a few years of heartache he got them over the line in 2011 and set up some of the platform for Gavin to continue on with the success. They are the best team now ever to play the game. Not only have Dublin a great team they have a genius of a manager.

JRant

TheCitizen wrote: »

Here Bonnie. I saw some of the Womens Gaelic Football game there. They have hooters to call time, they're more advanced than the mens game. All they need is a shot clock and they'd be making huge advances.

A shot clock?
Jaysus, the odd shot or two would have been an improvement today nevermind a clock

The_Kew_Tour

I think football is fine way it is. Like why try punish the team that was not sitting back

Bonniedog

JRant wrote: »

A shot clock?
Jaysus, the odd shot or two would have been an improvement today nevermind a clock

Dublin scored 1 - 17 from play. I won't embarrass you by stating where that stands statistically in the records for finals.

You ought to do some research.

bucketybuck

Bonniedog wrote: »

You ought to do some research.

How ironic.

The_Kew_Tour

Bonniedog wrote: »

Dublin scored 1 - 17 from play. I won't embarrass you by stating where that stands statistically in the records for finals.

You ought to do some research.

All teams would put 15 men behind ball with shot clock.

It’s a absurd suggestion

gormdubhgorm

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I think football is fine way it is. Like why try punish the team that was not sitting back

Unless they limited the amount of players a team could keep back beyond a certain point of the pitch. A shot clock is more than likely going to backfire.

The_Kew_Tour

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Unless they limited the amount of players a team could keep back beyond a certain point of the pitch. A shot clock is more than likely going to backfire.

True

Let’s say we had a shot clock yesterday, and let’s say you could only have 10 players in own half.(insert how many ya like)

The game yesterday would have been over after 20 minutes.

That strategy actually helps the Dublins rather then so called weaker teams.

Bonniedog

bucketybuck wrote: »

How ironic.

I seem to recall you saying a while back that nobody wanted tickets for the final, and that nobody was really interested in watching it

fergus1001

gormdubhgorm wrote:

Unless they limited the amount of players a team could keep back beyond a certain point of the pitch. A shot clock is more than likely going to backfire.

second this your forwards shouldn't be able to come back beyond mid field, stop blanket defenses, all teams are guilty of it at this stage including the dubs

fergus1001

The_Kew_Tour wrote:

That strategy actually helps the Dublins rather then so called weaker teams.

well It does help weaker counties since dublin would no longer be able to put all men in front of the ball when other teams are attacking

bucketybuck

Bonniedog wrote: »

I seem to recall you saying a while back that nobody wanted tickets for the final, and that nobody was really interested in watching it

You seem to have confused me with somebody else.

Regardless, why not check again which game the poster was actually referring to.

The_Kew_Tour

fergus1001 wrote: »

well It does help weaker counties since dublin would no longer be able to put all men in front of the ball when other teams are attacking

Ya good luck getting the ref to keep on top of that.

fergus1001

The_Kew_Tour wrote:

Ya good luck getting the ref to keep on top of that.

linesman and a tv ref would do it

JRant

Bonniedog wrote: »

Dublin scored 1 - 17 from play. I won't embarrass you by stating where that stands statistically in the records for finals.

You ought to do some research.

Hey Bonnie, I was talking about the ladies final today my good man.

If you have a read of my previous posts you will see we are on the page

The_Kew_Tour

fergus1001 wrote: »

linesman and a tv ref would do it

Oh great, let's slow the game down

JRant

fergus1001 wrote: »

linesman and a tv ref would do it

Hahahaha, I'm not sure if you're serious or not.
The same linesmen that couldn't spot an elephant cycling a bike past them.
Linesmen in GAA are only beaten in ineptitude by umpires (jolly merchants out for a free meal).

threeball

A shot clock is not the answer. Kerry went deep and zonal yesterday and it served them badly. They should have went man for man. That would have forced Dublin into longer kickouts, it wouldn't allow them to play pass the parcel across the 45 and would have prevented the spare man overlap which was always there due to their defensive tactics.

If teams want to stop clock management from another team then they need to employ tactics that prevent it. Many teams are trying to be far too clever now and have ignored the benefits of a more traditional approach where it's merited.

The_Kew_Tour

This is class

https://twitter.com/FitnessCoachG/status/1173172967318196225?s=19

The_Honeybadger

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

This is class

https://twitter.com/FitnessCoachG/status/1173172967318196225?s=19

Fair play to him. And well done to Dublin on a fine win. Kerry a bit short of what is needed yet.

By all accounts a nice guy. But just out of curiosity, how is he doing the handshake rounds so late and on his own?

corny

Deleted User wrote: »

But just out of curiosity, how is he doing the handshake rounds so late and on his own?

He was a mess after the final whistle. Crying into Murchans shoulder like a little girl.:D

Seemed to be genuinely overawed by the achievement anyway. That or the criticism (some from Dublin supporters) might have got to him between games.