Replay: All Ireland SFC Final Dublin v Kerry Saturday 14/09/2019 @ 6pm

mountgomery burns

threeball wrote: »

He was miles off him before Murchan even got the ball. Then the full back and centre back went AWOL. An u10s team wouldn't have left the space down the middle that Kerry did on that play.

I agree it was poor but it was one time where they had to have 8 men positioned in front of their back 6 and they were caught badly. I think as an example it's a good counter argument against anyone saying the dropped too deep at times.

As Bonniedog has said, their defense was much improved and a good part of the reason as to how they were so competitive against a team that is unbeaten in I think 36 championship games. Quality won out, it's as simple as that.

robbiezero

mountgomery burns wrote: »

I agree it was poor but it was one time where they had to have 8 men positioned in front of their back 6 and they were caught badly. I think as an example it's a good counter argument against anyone saying the dropped too deep at times.

As Bonniedog has said, their defense was much improved and a good part of the reason as to how they were so competitive against a team that is unbeaten in I think 36 championship games. Quality won out, it's as simple as that.

Why do teams bother lining up 15 on 15 for the throw-in, is there a rule that says you must have 6 either side of 65 for the throw in?

robbiezero

Still think it was a mistake to concede the kick-outs. Granted they had been opened in the drawn game, from what I remember it was twice, both similar plays with a Dublin lad coming behind the last line of 4 to pluck the ball over a Kerry head (Howard and Rock) and 1-1 was conceded from it, but I thought it had worked quite well and a small bit of work on it might have improved things e.g. a tactical foul if a clean catch by a Dub - Donegal were masters of it this year, the foul that isn't a pull-down and looks almost a genuine tackle attempt, but serves the purpose of slowing the attack.
7 points it is thought the Dubs got from their kick-outs and also the factor of the mental and physical sapping of the Kerry energy from chasing the Dubs for minutes at a time which seemed to take a heavy toll on their last 20 minutes. 3 points conceded directly from 4 long kicks in the first 5 minutes was quite a tactical error too.

Strumms

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What?

I reacted to people calling him a gentleman. A dirty player - one who uses foul play far too often - is not a gentleman in my 'unique' definition of one.

I don't know if it is 'universally' shared or not, nor do I care much. I am sure enough of my own opinion not to be hiding in the herd.

He is a gentleman, pure and simple. Anyone who’d know him would back that up. Does he use his physicality on the pitch to the best of its application ? He does of course. He is though a cultured footballer, a tough as teak defender but with a footballing skill set almost unrivaled for a defender in the game. To call him a dirty player or any such is ignorant I’m afraid and rather a lazy bout of labeling that is also inaccurate. Still it’s easy to be bitter. It takes more humility and intelligence to admit the reality.

rm75

threeball wrote: »

He was miles off him before Murchan even got the ball. Then the full back and centre back went AWOL. An u10s team wouldn't have left the space down the middle that Kerry did on that play.

They did the same with Davey Byrne , probably reckoned wasnt a threat and better off focusing on the danger men!!

Snow Garden

threeball wrote: »

He was miles off him before Murchan even got the ball. Then the full back and centre back went AWOL. An u10s team wouldn't have left the space down the middle that Kerry did on that play.

Strange to see that much open space at throw-in time. Maybe it was a planned move. I have seen it before at club level but it usually involves a give-and-go pass somewhere. Basically the fast fecker waits for the breaking ball and runs towards goal like the wind while most of the forwards drag their markers to the wings. The move is done to take advantage of players not switched on or concentrating in the first minute of the 2nd half.

60% of the time, it works every time.

Superb goal and the ref was great to allow advantage when he was being pulled back by Moran.

Snow Garden

robbiezero wrote: »

Still think it was a mistake to concede the kick-outs. Granted they had been opened in the drawn game, from what I remember it was twice, both similar plays with a Dublin lad coming behind the last line of 4 to pluck the ball over a Kerry head (Howard and Rock) and 1-1 was conceded from it, but I thought it had worked quite well and a small bit of work on it might have improved things e.g. a tactical foul if a clean catch by a Dub - Donegal were masters of it this year, the foul that isn't a pull-down and looks almost a genuine tackle attempt, but serves the purpose of slowing the attack.
7 points it is thought the Dubs got from their kick-outs and also the factor of the mental and physical sapping of the Kerry energy from chasing the Dubs for minutes at a time which seemed to take a heavy toll on their last 20 minutes. 3 points conceded directly from 4 long kicks in the first 5 minutes was quite a tactical error too.

Agree, big mistake to allow Dublin easy kickouts. Cluxton had them pitch perfect too. I thought Dublin would win handy when I saw the easy possession.

threeball

mountgomery burns wrote: »

threeball wrote: »

He was miles off him before Murchan even got the ball. Then the full back and centre back went AWOL. An u10s team wouldn't have left the space down the middle that Kerry did on that play.

I agree it was poor but it was one time where they had to have 8 men positioned in front of their back 6 and they were caught badly. I think as an example it's a good counter argument against anyone saying the dropped too deep at times.

As Bonniedog has said, their defense was much improved and a good part of the reason as to how they were so competitive against a team that is unbeaten in I think 36 championship games. Quality won out, it's as simple as that.

If these blanket defences are so effective why are teams coughing up bigger scores than ever. The average score in matches is gone through the roof. The fact is there is zero accountability. For decades the average winning score in games was around the 14 to 15pt range. We now have games routinely with over 25pts, sometimes without goals being scored. Yes on a heavy crap pitch you might limit a good team to 10pts. Once you get to Croker you're done for. Look what happened to Tyrone two years ago. I'm not saying the better team didn't win but Kerry didn't do themselves any favours setting up as they did and conceding possession from every kick out.

threeball

Snow Garden wrote: »

threeball wrote: »

He was miles off him before Murchan even got the ball. Then the full back and centre back went AWOL. An u10s team wouldn't have left the space down the middle that Kerry did on that play.

Strange to see that much open space at throw-in time. Maybe it was a planned move. I have seen it before at club level but it usually involves a give-and-go pass somewhere. Basically the fast fecker waits for the breaking ball and runs towards goal like the wind while most of the forwards drag their markers to the wings. The move is done to take advantage of players not switched on or concentrating in the first minute of the 2nd half.

60% of the time, it works every time.

Superb goal and the ref was great to allow advantage when he was being pulled back by Moran.

Don't think it was pre-planned as Moran should have caught the throw in but randomly punched it instead straight in the Murchans path and the Dublin CF and FF ran for the wing. Now whatever about the CB following his man in that position there's no excuse for a FB to leave the edge of the square. The danger was obvious 45m out but the FB persisted in following O Callaghan. Basic defending is lost in this unaccountable muddle that the defensive systems are. Everyone is too reliant on having 2 or 3 others to give them a dig out and are less than useless when they get isolated.

blanch152

mountgomery burns wrote: »

Don't agree with this at all to be honest with you. The perfect example being the goal, one instance when there is no argument that Kerry had a conventional setup for that play and Murchan tore down the middle of the defense unopposed.

I thought that was poor enough from Kerry but it would contradict your point about going man on man. As would there defensive frailities in previous games up until the final. Kerry's tactic of lumping the ball in early yielded no dividends and meant that they gave away a 4 points head start. They also conceded the goal, if neither of those had happened they would have been right there at the death.

No doubt the better team won the match, but Kerry did enough to keep themselves in it against the best team in the Country so I would be slow to criticize them tactically. Ultimately, over the course of 150 minutes of football class is going to win out. That's what happened on Sunday. Giving the Dubs more space by pushing up the field would have been kamikaze stuff. I don't think Kerry were overtly negative they just weren't naive.

Just on the shot clock thing, surprised people even responding to that. Absolute nonsense

The goal came direct from the throw-in. You can’t set up with a sweeper from a throw-in, neither are you pressing the opposition kick-out, so it is a unique situation, and one that Dublin have targeted for scores.

blanch152

robbiezero wrote: »

Still think it was a mistake to concede the kick-outs. Granted they had been opened in the drawn game, from what I remember it was twice, both similar plays with a Dublin lad coming behind the last line of 4 to pluck the ball over a Kerry head (Howard and Rock) and 1-1 was conceded from it, but I thought it had worked quite well and a small bit of work on it might have improved things e.g. a tactical foul if a clean catch by a Dub - Donegal were masters of it this year, the foul that isn't a pull-down and looks almost a genuine tackle attempt, but serves the purpose of slowing the attack.
7 points it is thought the Dubs got from their kick-outs and also the factor of the mental and physical sapping of the Kerry energy from chasing the Dubs for minutes at a time which seemed to take a heavy toll on their last 20 minutes. 3 points conceded directly from 4 long kicks in the first 5 minutes was quite a tactical error too.

Absolutely right, Kerry lost this on the sideline with those tactics. What made it worse was they spent the first fifteen minutes lobbing aimless ball into the full-forward line.

Couldn’t understand it at all, as they got the tactics to beat Dublin right first time out. Ironically, if Clifford had played as well the first day, they would have won, or if Keane had used the same tactics the second day......

Dublin were inevitable winners the way Kerry set up the second day, must say I was very surprised at how far Kerry retreated into their shell.

Strumms

blanch152 wrote: »

Absolutely right, Kerry lost this on the sideline with those tactics. What made it worse was they spent the first fifteen minutes lobbing aimless ball into the full-forward line.

Couldn’t understand it at all, as they got the tactics to beat Dublin right first time out. Ironically, if Clifford had played as well the first day, they would have won, or if Keane had used the same tactics the second day......

Dublin were inevitable winners the way Kerry set up the second day, must say I was very surprised at how far Kerry retreated into their shell.

I couldn’t understand those tactics either. The only thing that I’m thinking of was maybe they were hoping to catch our full back line cold, not letting them settle , a mistake or two under a high ball might lead to a goal or two early doors and have Dublin try to play catch-up.

Whatever tactic it failed miserably.

mountgomery burns

blanch152 wrote: »

The goal came direct from the throw-in. You can’t set up with a sweeper from a throw-in, neither are you pressing the opposition kick-out, so it is a unique situation, and one that Dublin have targeted for scores.

Yeah exactly the point I was making that Kerry would have been Ill advised to setup in that fashion for most of the game.

Dublin aren't naive defensively either since 2014.

FrancieBrady

Strumms wrote: »

He is a gentleman, pure and simple. Anyone who’d know him would back that up. Does he use his physicality on the pitch to the best of its application ? He does of course. He is though a cultured footballer, a tough as teak defender but with a footballing skill set almost unrivaled for a defender in the game. To call him a dirty player or any such is ignorant I’m afraid and rather a lazy bout of labeling that is also inaccurate. Still it’s easy to be bitter. It takes more humility and intelligence to admit the reality.

I'm not a bit bitter.
You can have your opinion but I think like blanch152 you are just ignoring the 'lives on the edge' a facet of his game.
My point is, he frequently and willingly tips over that edge if he can't get the job done fairly. Plenty like him in GAA, who would be perfectly normal people off the field, I'm not accusing him of being a master crim...calm down like. :rolleyes:

robbiezero

Strumms wrote: »

I couldn’t understand those tactics either. The only thing that I’m thinking of was maybe they were hoping to catch our full back line cold, not letting them settle , a mistake or two under a high ball might lead to a goal or two early doors and have Dublin try to play catch-up.

Whatever tactic it failed miserably.

Ya possibly. Was thinking also that it might be that they wanted to force the Dublin sweeper to stay in around the square rather than playing in front of the full back line and also covering kick passes down the wings.
Kicks were poorly executed, and the breaks were well covered by defenders.
Was a brilliant flick from Small from a ball punched out by Cluxton. Had a Kerry forward on his back and facing his own goal and just flicked on the ball over his right shoulder into the path of an outgoing team-mate.

DFS UTD

I'm being a bit of an anorak here - but does anyone know who the unused subs were for both teams in the drawn game (name and number) ?

Cheers

DFS

Field east

mountgomery burns wrote: »

Don't agree with this at all to be honest with you. The perfect example being the goal, one instance when there is no argument that Kerry had a conventional setup for that play and Murchan tore down the middle of the defense unopposed.

I thought that was poor enough from Kerry but it would contradict your point about going man on man. As would there defensive frailities in previous games up until the final. Kerry's tactic of lumping the ball in early yielded no dividends and meant that they gave away a 4 points head start. They also conceded the goal, if neither of those had happened they would have been right there at the death.

No doubt the better team won the match, but Kerry did enough to keep themselves in it against the best team in the Country so I would be slow to criticize them tactically. Ultimately, over the course of 150 minutes of football class is going to win out. That's what happened on Sunday. Giving the Dubs more space by pushing up the field would have been kamikaze stuff. I don't think Kerry were overtly negative they just weren't naive.

Just on the shot clock thing, surprised people even responding to that. Absolute nonsense

I could be wrong, but I watched the whole game and I think that Dublin won possession of every ball that ‘spilled’ or became a 50/50 ball. And it was not that Dublin knew where the ball was going to spill to in most cases. A classical example was the play from the throw in to that goal. The Kerry player fisted the ball from the throw in and it landed into the hands of the goal scorer and away he went
I know that it is a ‘What if’, but if Kerry converted even quarter of its many wides their energy might have been higher. There is nothing as depressing as driving wide after wide.
It is obvious how Dublin go about processing their scores - especially points. Ie pass the ball from player to player until one player is in close enough and roughly in front of the goal to take aim

blanch152

Field east wrote: »

It is obvious how Dublin go about processing their scores - especially points. Ie pass the ball from player to player until one player is in close enough and roughly in front of the goal to take aim

That requires huge tactical discipline, superb execution of the basic skills of passing from hand and foot, as well as brilliant decision-making in knowing when not to shoot, as well as when to shoot. Only a team of brilliant individuals can play like that.

gormdubhgorm

DFS UTD wrote: »

I'm being a bit of an anorak here - but does anyone know who the unused subs were for both teams in the drawn game (name and number) ?

Cheers

DFS

Having a nose at the progamme -

Dublin -

Subs:

Paddy Small for Macauley 51 mins; Diarmuid Connolly for Howard 67 mins; Cormac Costello for Mannion 67 mins; Kevin McManamon for Scully 70 mins.

Unused Subs:

Evan Comerford (16), Paddy Andrews (17), Darren Daly (20), Philly McMahon (21), Eoin Murchan (23), Peadar O'Cofaigh-Byrne (24), Cian O'Sullivan (25)



Kerry -

Subs:

Killian Spillane (1-01) for Adrian Spillane 44 mins; Jack Sherwood for White 48 mins; Tommy Walsh (0-01) for Ó Beaglaoich 52 mins; Jonathan Lyne for Crowley 67 mins; Dara Moynihan for Barry 72 mins; Mark Griffin for Stephen O’Brien 77 mins.


Unused Subs:

Brian Kelly (16), Graham O'Sullivan (22), Diarmuid O'Connor (23), Killian Young (25)

Bonniedog

Just seeing Daly's name there. Got little game time this year. Really is a competitive set up/

gormdubhgorm

Bonniedog wrote: »

Just seeing Daly's name there. Got little game time this year. Really is a competitive set up/

Yes and no.
Just looking at it overall.
Most of those subs have being around a long time - (as I argued that other dublin dominance thread)
Daly is no spring chicken either.
Jim always picks the same 'auld lads' as first choice subs Costello, Kevin Mc, Philly/COS, Paddy Andrews, Connolly/Brogan - Daly who you mentioned
The only fella he seems to be trying to 'fast track' as a sub is Paddy Small.

Murchan looks like he has starting position in future and McCarthy will probably stay in the middle - it's where he prefers to play anyway. MDM days are numbered I think. (as the replay demonstrated)

It says something when most Dublin supporters could have a good stab at getting not only the starting 15, but what the bench will be most games.
It always returns to very familiar names in a very settled side.

I know it probably sounds a bit silly after a five a row. But it had the feeling of 'job done' not only will this mean the players will switch off a bit - it also means the likes of Paddy Small, P O'C-Byrne, Bugler, Archer, McDaid have to 'step up' to replace the auld lads - the auld legends.
I am not sure it is going to be as simple a transition as some people expect in the next few years.

Bonniedog

I suppose. Don't think any of the squad that played Underdogs are still about, maybe there was an under 20 or two?

Even out of 20s this year, you'd imagine Archer is nailed on for a few runs in early year, probably O Cofaigh Byrne. Maybe Mathews? Can't see the same sort of through put as with Gavin and Farrell teams.

So, basically the same 40 in January fighting for the same spots with some predictable retirements, although none announced so far.