Shell companies

James Brown

I know we're 'a great little country to do business', but what's in it for the lowly tax payer?

Looks like many of the large multinationals in Ireland are only here to dodge tax and launder money... shocker.

Almost two-thirds of Irish FDI is ‘phantom’ – IMF study
Nearly half of the phantom FDI the researchers identified was in Luxembourg and the Netherlands. Other countries in which less than half of FDI is “genuine” included Malta, Ireland, Switzerland and a number of British overseas territories and crown dependencies, according to the study’s authors.

Brad Setser, an international economist at the Council on Foreign Relations in New York, said the study showed that “these structures - phantom companies or phantom investments - are optimised for minimising firms’ global tax”.

“Apple does not produce its iPhones in Ireland, nor does Apple design them or develop the majority of its operating system in Ireland [BUT]one of the most valuable US foreign direct investments now is Apple’s ownership stake in Apple Ireland,” Mr Setser said.

Nearly two-thirds of Ireland’s inward investment is “phantom”, the IMF study found.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/almost-two-thirds-of-irish-fdi-is-phantom-imf-study-1.4012191

This includes Apple. How much tax take are we getting off these lads?

Stevieluvsye

Thought this was going to be about Petrol

ArnoldJRimmer

What we get are lots of jobs, both directly and indirectly, and thats part of what keeps the country going. The fact that the little man pays substantially more tax than the companies themselves may be unpalatable, but thats the way of things until someone comes up with a meaningful alternative.

James Brown

ArnoldJRimmer wrote: »

What we get are lots of jobs, both directly and indirectly, and thats part of what keeps the country going. The fact that the little man pays substantially more tax than the companies themselves may be unpalatable, but thats the way of things until someone comes up with a meaningful alternative.

I've heard that but I don't know the numbers. Are we helping companies dodge taxes elsewhere for many jobs? Just wondering if it's not more worth our while to tax these companies more? Are we engaged in a race to the bottom for scraps?

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I've heard that but I don't know the numbers. Are we helping companies dodge taxes elsewhere for many jobs? Just wondering if it's not more worth our while to tax these companies more? Are we engaged in a race to the bottom for scraps?

6,000 people are directly employed by Apple at their Holyhill plant. What do they do, count FDI?

There are thousands more indirectly employed and others at other Apple centres.

Hardly call that scraps.

blanch152

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/apple-s-secretive-cork-facility-opens-up-to-an-extent-1.3346124


"So low-key that some media coverage of the tech giant’s presence in Ireland would almost have you believe its Hollyhill campus is little more than a postal address from which the company seeks to divert its hefty profits to avoid paying taxes."

Seems like this thread fell into the same trap.

"Among the functions the facility houses are customer care, finance, localisation, logistics, manufacturing, finance, sales support and transport management. In more recent times, it has also taken responsibility for iTunes after the business relocated from Luxembourg.

Apple organises the supply of products to more than 147 countries through Cork, either through online, retail or resellers. The company supplies more than 110 physical stores and 24 online stores, which typically chalk up more than a billion visits a year, as well as a large number of direct and indirect resellers."

Some busy people working there, hardly call it a shell company. Disappointing when people fall for the anti-Ireland agenda of others.

ArnoldJRimmer

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I've heard that but I don't know the numbers. Are we helping companies dodge taxes elsewhere for many jobs? Just wondering if it's not more worth our while to tax these companies more? Are we engaged in a race to the bottom for scraps?

We could tax them more, but then then what would the impact be to attracting more foreign investment as a whole or even retaining what we have? The world is not fair, and while I think describing it as a race to the bottom is a bit over the top, the country needs to be competitive, in this case through low taxation. In general FDI has been a real positive for Ireland, and the benefits outweigh the perceived unfairness.

Not saying its an either/ or scenario, but are you old enough to remember the country when it was run by the Catholic church? I am, and trust me, society is in a much much better place. So again, until someone comes up with a fairer alternative, I can live with some companies perhaps paying less than their share

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

6,000 people are directly employed by Apple at their Holyhill plant. What do they do, count FDI?

There are thousands more indirectly employed and others at other Apple centres.

Hardly call that scraps.

It was a question not a claim.
Thanks for your input.

blanch152 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/apple-s-secretive-cork-facility-opens-up-to-an-extent-1.3346124


"So low-key that some media coverage of the tech giant’s presence in Ireland would almost have you believe its Hollyhill campus is little more than a postal address from which the company seeks to divert its hefty profits to avoid paying taxes."

Seems like this thread fell into the same trap.

"Among the functions the facility houses are customer care, finance, localisation, logistics, manufacturing, finance, sales support and transport management. In more recent times, it has also taken responsibility for iTunes after the business relocated from Luxembourg.

Apple organises the supply of products to more than 147 countries through Cork, either through online, retail or resellers. The company supplies more than 110 physical stores and 24 online stores, which typically chalk up more than a billion visits a year, as well as a large number of direct and indirect resellers."

Some busy people working there, hardly call it a shell company. Disappointing when people fall for the anti-Ireland agenda of others.

Disappointing when you can't ask a series of genuine questions without someone taking umbrage for some reason.
I would suggest looking after the tax payer is more 'pro-Ireland' than helping multinationals dodge tax.

“Apple does not produce its iPhones in Ireland, nor does Apple design them or develop the majority of its operating system in Ireland [BUT]one of the most valuable US foreign direct investments now is Apple’s ownership stake in Apple Ireland,” Mr Setser said.

Nearly two-thirds of Ireland’s inward investment is “phantom”, the IMF study found.

Peaked my curiosity as to us being 'a great little country' for multinationals avoiding tax 'to do business' is all. Been going on long before this government I'd imagine. Maybe we need 'change the way we do business'?

jimgoose

blanch152 wrote: »

..."some media coverage of the tech giant’s presence in Ireland would almost have you believe its Hollyhill campus is little more than a postal address from which the company seeks to divert its hefty profits to avoid paying taxes."...

I was up that way earlier this afternoon, as it happens. The place is a like a small town-within-a-city. :pac:

OP, I've been working for the Yanks all my life. Yes, the tax situation can be somewhat, shall we say, complex, but such is life. These outfits plough a hell of a lot of wealth back to their host countries.

jimgoose

Matt Barrett wrote: »

...Peaked my curiosity as to us being 'a great little country' for multinationals avoiding tax 'to do business' is all. Been going on long before this government I'd imagine. Maybe we need 'change the way we do business'?

Everyone who is in business, big, small or wherever in the middle, goes to considerable trouble to minimise their tax liability. Anyone who does not do this is an idiot.

James Brown

jimgoose wrote: »

Everyone who is in business, big, small or wherever in the middle, goes to considerable trouble to minimise their tax liability. Anyone who does not do this is an idiot.

I get that. However we lose when they save. We have a bad habit of treating private business like they're on the tax payers side. The article peaked my curiosity.

Eric Cartman

And what do you think sending these companies away or taxing them would achieve ?

Because if the answer is ‘more money for the government to spend’ or ‘more jobs’ I can assure you, its the exact opposite of that

James Brown

Eric Cartman wrote: »

And what do you think sending these companies away or taxing them would achieve ?

Because if the answer is ‘more money for the government to spend’ or ‘more jobs’ I can assure you, its the exact opposite of that

Serenity now.
Was asking were we losing more than we were making is all.
A multinational saving billions in tax to cough up a percentage okey doke. A fiver increase on the dole Christmas bonus, all hell breaks loose

Eric Cartman

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Serenity now.
Was asking were we losing more than we were making is all.
A multinational saving billions in tax to cough up a percentage okey doke. A fiver on the Christmas bonus, all hell breaks loose

We are definitely benefitting massively from this, it is an industry in itself is this ‘tax dodging’ . We wouldnt be in the top 10 richest countries without it.

Does it help the ‘working people’ - a bit
Does it hurt them - definitely not

Tell me how

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Serenity now.
Was asking were we losing more than we were making is all.
A multinational saving billions in tax to cough up a percentage okey doke. A fiver increase on the dole Christmas bonus, all hell breaks loose

What do you think?

James Brown

Tell me how wrote: »

What do you think?

I don't know. If I knew I wouldn't have asked. Obviously hit several nerves.

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I get that. However we lose when they save. We have a bad habit of treating private business like they're on the tax payers side. The article peaked my curiosity.

Yes, we could be the new Cuba, or Venezuela. If the nutters in the North don't like it, we could even be the new Syria or Lebanon.

Tell me how

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I don't know. If I knew I wouldn't have asked. Obviously hit several nerves.

Well, the fact that you don't even have an opinion indicates you started the thread to provoke some sort of a reaction rather than find a definitive answer.

blanch152

Tell me how wrote: »

Well, the fact that you don't even have an opinion indicates you started the thread to provoke some sort of a reaction rather than find a definitive answer.

That is clear from how the responses to the OP were subsequently challenged, or labelled as touching a nerve.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

Yes, we could be the new Cuba, or Venezuela. If the nutters in the North don't like it, we could even be the new Syria or Lebanon.

Japers blanch talk about hyperbole. Is tax communism for you?

Tell me how wrote: »

Well, the fact that you don't even have an opinion indicates you started the thread to provoke some sort of a reaction rather than find a definitive answer.

That's assuming a lot. I have an opinion but not based on all the facts hence the questions. That's how discussion works. Not sure what's upsetting you about it TBH.

blanch152 wrote: »

That is clear from how the responses to the OP were subsequently challenged, or labelled as touching a nerve.

You seem to have taken offence and are hitting out. Very odd, maybe not for you.
I'm not the one moving off topic to get personal but I am responding in kind I suppose, so mission accomplished Blanch. Close down another discussion you don't approve of or like.

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Japers blanch talk about hyperbole. Is tax communism for you?



That's assuming a lot. I have an opinion but not based on all the facts hence the questions. That's how discussion works. Not sure what's upsetting you about it TBH.



You seem to have taken offence and are hitting out. Very odd, maybe not for you.
I'm not the one moving off topic to get personal but I am responding in kind I suppose, so mission accomplished Blanch. Close down another discussion you don't approve of or like.

You can relax, I haven't taken offence, but thanks for your concern.

As for getting personal, I can't say I have seen it. Some commentary on the nature of the contributions with the first one being "Disappointing when you can't ask a series of genuine questions without someone taking umbrage for some reason", but haven't seen anything I would remotely consider personal.

The topic is a bit like a Junior Cert economics question, with the value of FDI to the country being questioned. That may have added an edge to some of the responses, but apologies if you felt that way.

dublinbando

Hey I have no problem with Ireland having a 12.5% corporate tax rate but I do have a problem with companies not actually paying the 12.5% rate, which was the case with Apple, I don't know how they did it but they were paying 1% back in 2003 and then 0.005% back in 2014.

James Brown

dublinbando wrote: »

Hey I have no problem with Ireland having a 12.5% corporate tax rate but I do have a problem with companies not actually paying the 12.5% rate, which was the case with Apple, I don't know how they did it but they were paying 1% back in 2003 and then 0.005% back in 2014.

I remember an article a year or so ago about Russian/Putin affiliated oil companies using Ireland to funnel money from one company to another and they were paying very little tax then of course there's the vulture/property companies also paying little tax. I was wondering is it worth our while giving these type of 'companies' low tax rates? What are we getting back?

dublinbando

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I remember an article a year or so ago about Russian/Putin affiliated oil companies using Ireland to funnel money from one company to another and they were paying very little tax then of course there's the vulture/property companies also paying little tax. I was wondering is it worth our while giving these type of 'companies' low tax rates? What are we getting back?

Yeah we don't get that much back do we? we get a housing crisis, and a corrupt incompetent government who do sweet **** all to solve any problem affecting the average citizen.

James Brown

It seems par for the course. FF would have had a hand in the way we operate before FG came in to "change the way we do business" but didn't.
It's not corruption just lack of interest in looking after the tax payer.

dublinbando

Matt Barrett wrote: »

It seems par for the course. FF would have had a hand in the way we operate before FG came in to "change the way we do business" but didn't.
It's not corruption just lack of interest in looking after the tax payer.

Oh the government is very much corrupt, look at the swing-gate scandal for example, PSC card scandal which is currently ongoing, I'd say a lot of politicians made bank off the childrens hospital fiasco, and there's a tonne of other stuff I couldn't be arsed ranting on about.

James Brown

dublinbando wrote: »

Oh the government is very much corrupt, look at the swing-gate scandal for example, PSC card scandal which is currently ongoing, I'd say a lot of politicians made bank off the childrens hospital fiasco, and there's a tonne of other stuff I couldn't be arsed ranting on about.

Morally, not legally. Doing sweet deals or being 'inappropriate' isn't great for the tax payer but it's likely not illegal.
I just wish we'd as much thought and effort put into taxing multinationals as we do for....

is_that_so

The types of companies involved do this anywhere and are facilitated either by a blind eye or special deals. Amazon, for example, have reaped billions in the US for location costs, money they don't need at all. They are also aided by the inability of countries worldwide to address the question globally. On top of that, poor tax regimes have allowed them to cherry pick countries, in the EU in particular, who are prepared to tolerate a level of funnelling in return for good local tax returns.

Meanwhile other EU countries have belatedly noticed the huge sums involved and realised they should be taking more from them and all the while the US tax system which is largely at the heart of the avoidance continues unreformed.

dublinbando

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Morally, not legally. Doing sweet deals or being 'inappropriate' isn't great for the tax payer but it's likely not illegal.
I just wish we'd as much thought and effort put into taxing multinationals as we do for....

Um the PSC was deemed illegal and the government are taking the data protection commission to court over it while continuing to break the law. Also Maria Bailey committed insurance fraud.

Tell me how

dublinbando wrote: »

Oh the government is very much corrupt, look at the swing-gate scandal for example, PSC card scandal which is currently ongoing, I'd say a lot of politicians made bank off the childrens hospital fiasco, and there's a tonne of other stuff I couldn't be arsed ranting on about.

Your definition of very much corrupt is considerably different to most people worldwide I'd imagine if you think swinggate is the worst of it.

You're just throwing out the political issues of the day and suggesting they are route in personal financial motivations without there being evidence this is the case.

They are issues, they're not evidence we're very much corrupt.

dublinbando

Tell me how wrote: »

Your definition of very much corrupt is considerably different to most people worldwide I'd imagine if you think swinggate is the worst of it.

You're just throwing out the political issues of the day and suggesting they are route in personal financial motivations without there being evidence this is the case.

They are issues, they're not evidence we're very much corrupt.

You talk like you are a member of the government.