Whiskey and Wealth Club

Mellor · 17-09-2019 3:03pm

EndaHonesty wrote: »

The future price is not guaranteed.

By making my investment I have entered into an agreement whereby my casks are stored for a period of up to 5 years.

After the initial 5 years I can extend the storage for €50 per cask per year. That includes insurance.

I can sell the casks at any point but realistically not until the liquid becomes whiskey after 3 years.

My own intention is to keep the casks for long term as a speculative punt. I hope to be retired in 30 years so a windfall then would be very useful...

https://www.thespiritsbusiness.com/2018/02/macallan-sets-new-record-for-1989-cask-sale/

Realistically, is anyone other than WCD going to buy it from you? They’ll know the validity of its contents but other might not.
The Macallen cask was held in a bonded warehouse. I looked into buying a cask here. But the lack of “certified” contents, age, etc put me off.

bcklschaps · 17-09-2019 3:12pm

I watched the promotional video and was actually giggling to myself. Its absolute tosh.

No guarantee of what the whiskey from this unknown distillery will be worth in 5 yrs time. They talk about experience, tradition and craft etc. They haven't sold a feckin drop of Whiskey yet. Any really expensive Whiskey or Whisky is old or very old....and rare. This is what makes it expensive.

There's a Whiskey distillery sprouting up in every backwater in the country. They can't all be making top quality stuff?? Even if they accidentally hit the jackpot with a super product....they are unknown and do you think the existing big Irish Whiskey distillers with big name products are not going to fight back in any way.

<snip> Tread carefully boardsies.

Meanwhile, anyone for a few Tuilip bulbs ??? Swear to God they'll be a global shortage in a couple of years.... this time will be DIFFERENT.

Jim2007 · 17-09-2019 3:16pm

EndaHonesty wrote: »

My investment is with West Cork Distillers. A successful, profitable company with a proven track record.

Can you post a link to their financials? The only reference I can see is to a turn over of about 20m, which means they are not even a micro cap => that means they are not investment grade no matter why you make think.

It is basically speculating in commodities.

EndaHonesty · 17-09-2019 3:34pm

Mellor wrote: »

Realistically, is anyone other than WCD going to buy it from you? They’ll know the validity of its contents but other might not.
The Macallen cask was held in a bonded warehouse. I looked into buying a cask here. But the lack of “certified” contents, age, etc put me off.

My whiskey is held in a bonded warehouse. It's certified.

I agree that WCD are the most likely purchaser, but they are not the only one. There is an active commercial market for bulk whiskey.
Where do you think Conor McGregor got his whiskey from? He doesn't have a distillery.

He's not the only one either, all the new brands will need product before they distill their own. There will always be a market for the whiskey.

EndaHonesty · 17-09-2019 3:40pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

Can you post a link to their financials? The only reference I can see is to a turn over of about 20m, which means they are not even a micro cap => that means they are not investment grade no matter why you make think.

It is basically speculating in commodities.

By that measure Amazon were at one point "not investment grade".

WCD are bigger than Teeling.

Jim2007 · 17-09-2019 6:25pm

EndaHonesty wrote: »

By that measure Amazon were at one point "not investment grade".

WCD are bigger than Teeling.

And the same rules applied. You want to take unnecessary risks that is entirely up to you.

Jim2007 · 17-09-2019 6:27pm

EndaHonesty wrote: »

My whiskey is held in a bonded warehouse. It's certified.

A bonded warehouse relates to taxes and duties, so I have no idea what you have certified.

EndaHonesty · 17-09-2019 6:50pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

And the same rules applied. You want to take unnecessary risks that is entirely up to you.

I don't consider this investment risky.

EndaHonesty · 17-09-2019 6:51pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

A bonded warehouse relates to taxes and duties, so I have no idea what you have certified.

I know exactly what a bonded warehouse is. My casks are stored in a bonded warehouse.

Mellor · 17-09-2019 11:26pm

bcklschaps wrote: »

No guarantee of what the whiskey from this unknown distillery will be worth in 5 yrs time. They talk about experience, tradition and craft etc. They haven't sold a feckin drop of Whiskey yet.

The future price of an investment is rarely guaranteed. That’s hardly a valid criticism.
I understand you tread carefully stance. But saying they haven’t sold a drop of whiskey yet suggests you probably aren’t very familiar with the Irish whiskey market.

EndaHonesty wrote: »

Where do you think Conor McGregor got his whiskey from? He doesn't have a distillery.

He pays a distillery to produce it entirely. He isn’t buying casks in bulk.
Bulk purchasing occurs. But it’s typically small producers buying from large stock. Not independents owners. Of course it’s possible.

EndaHonesty · 18-09-2019 3:17am

Mellor wrote: »

He pays a distillery to produce it entirely. He isn’t buying casks in bulk.
Bulk purchasing occurs. But it’s typically small producers buying from large stock. Not independents owners. Of course it’s possible.

Whiskey isn't whiskey until 3 years after distilling. McGregor didn't start his brand 3 years ago. He literally bulk bought casks. They bought all the casks available last year.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/food-and-drink/drink/conor-mcgregor-s-new-whiskey-a-taste-test-1.3634848

a quick turnaround is only possible by purchasing whiskey already produced on the stills of Midleton, Bushmills, West Cork, Cooley or the tiny Cooley-controlled Locke’s Distillery

Jim2007 · 18-09-2019 9:21am

EndaHonesty wrote: »

I know exactly what a bonded warehouse is. My casks are stored in a bonded warehouse.

And the certified bit you stated... who certified what?

Jim2007 · 18-09-2019 9:39am

EndaHonesty wrote: »

I don't consider this investment risky.

I’m sure you don’t, but then neither did the people who invested in the various forestry schemes, private property schemes and now closed alternative investment funds.

Commodity investing is a high risk game and I see nothing in this current proposal to suggest that even the basic steps to minimize the risks have been applied.

It is the exact same story line as you come across in Southern Europe only this time it’s whiskey rather than wine, olives, lemons or oranges.

EndaHonesty · 18-09-2019 10:13am

Jim2007 wrote: »

I’m sure you don’t, but then neither did the people who invested in the various forestry schemes, private property schemes and now closed alternative investment funds.

Commodity investing is a high risk game and I see nothing in this current proposal to suggest that even the basic steps to minimize the risks have been applied.

It is the exact same story line as you come across in Southern Europe only this time it’s whiskey rather than wine, olives, lemons or oranges.

It's only the "exact same story" to hurlers on the ditch...

Mellor · 18-09-2019 11:06am

EndaHonesty wrote: »

Whiskey isn't whiskey until 3 years after distilling. McGregor didn't start his brand 3 years ago. He literally bulk bought casks. They bought all the casks available last year.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/food-and-drink/drink/conor-mcgregor-s-new-whiskey-a-taste-test-1.3634848

I’m well aware how how it takes to make whiskey and what the process is. McGregor didn’t buy up all the whiskey from all of those suppliers. Read the start of that sentence.

”Many new entrants to the market...

That’s how new entrants produce whiskey older than their business.
On the other hand McGregors whiskey is made by Bushmills. Which is the other option.

EndaHonesty · 18-09-2019 11:26am

The full sentence...

Many new entrants to the market, including McGregor purchase whiskey from already mature stocks held by the existing distillers and label it under their own branding.

Mellor wrote: »

That’s how new entrants produce whiskey older than their business.
On the other hand McGregors whiskey is made by Bushmills. Which is the other option.

McGregor's whiskey is not 100% Bushmills, it's not 100% anything, they bought casks from several distilleries.

Mellor · 18-09-2019 12:43pm

EndaHonesty wrote: »

McGregor's whiskey is not 100% Bushmills, they bought casks from several distilleries.

It’s a blend of single malts made by Bushmills. And IDL grain distillate owned/aged by Bushmills for original and Black Bush (they only distill single malt in Antrim). Bushmills have a lot of stock.

Best of luck with your cask. You got a good price.

Boards.ie: Niamh · 26-09-2019 3:42pm

Hi guys,
Whiskey & Wealth Club have been reading this thread and wanted to clarify a few things that have come up in it. They can't post in reply to you so if you have any further questions after reading this, I'd encourage you to contact them directly. Thanks.

Whiskey & Wealth Club wrote:

Thanks for all the comments. We’d like to respond to a few of them to set the record straight and provide facts for people to base their own opinions on.

In response to the question around returns, and why distilleries aren’t doing it themselves. Distilleries are absolutely doing this. It’s their entire business model. They make whiskey and sit on it until it matures and becomes more valuable and then bottle, sell and profit. It is the exact same thing we offer to investors. However, for the distillery, it’s a capital-intensive model. They invest money to buy the grain, make the whiskey, and pay the staff and run the distillery for 5 years before they can recoup any money back on it. So some distilleries opt to sell a percentage of their production to cover the annual running costs while laying the rest of their spirit to mature for bottle and profit later.

We sell for less than the actual distillery because we buy in huge quantity. One misconception we’d like to make clear - clients are not investing in us. We are the intermediary. We’re buying from the distillery in bulk and guaranteeing them a certain volume. We then immediately sell to investors after we add our margin (while keeping it at an investor friendly price point). Once you have your certificate of ownership, we’re out of the deal unless the investor chooses to use us as a broker down the line to sell on the cask.

Regarding risk, of course all investment carries risk – however, we deal with great distilleries that have award winning brands, we secure in a bonded facility, we ensure all casks are fully insured against fire, theft and damage. It’s safe and steady and in a market, that’s been trending upwards (in double digits) for over 21 years and set to continue on this double-digit growth path for another 20+ years. Data from the IWSR (International Wine and Spirits Record) who are the global benchmark on beverage data and intelligence, along with the IWA (Irish Whiskey Association) show this.

With regards to the lack of Irish voices. I am an Irishman writing this. Our founder is an Irishman who runs the business alongside two seasoned entrepreneurs, one English and one Australian. We have four other Irish employees (6 total). Irrespective of nationality, our team are passionate and dedicated. We have over 45 (5 star) trust pilot reviews from real clients and have personally met over 80% of our customers face to face. Not to mention plenty of video testimonials on our website.

Again thanks for the comments and interest in what we do. We’d be happy to speak to anyone on here, take them to tour the distillery, not to sell you anything, but more so to show you what it actually is and how it works on a deeper level.

Company contact number for further questions: +44 20 3129 1639

Mellor · 27-09-2019 12:27am

One misconception we’d like to make clear - clients are not investing in us. We are the intermediary. We’re buying from the distillery in bulk and guaranteeing them a certain volume. We then immediately sell to investors after we add our margin (while keeping it at an investor friendly price point).

I don't think that was a misconception. If anything, that was the main criticism.

Darc19 · 27-09-2019 8:19am

It's one hell of a margin that is being added and I simply cannot find any value whatsoever in what they are offering.

Buy it as a interesting hobby, but the whiskey and wealth club prices are highly unlikely to provide you an investment profit.

boysinblack · 31-12-2019 7:16pm

EndaHonesty wrote: »

The minimum investment is 1 pallet - 6 casks.

I bought a pallet of casks in the West Cork Distillery offering. The pallet cost just under 16,000.

We (the investors) were taken on a tour of the distillery to meet the owners of the distillery, to taste the whiskey and to see our casks, so I know the investment is genuine.

Just to throw some perspective on this thread.

West cork are selling casks for 1k, that can be bought directly from them.

So that’s a markup of 1,500 on each cask that was bought through the club on that offering .

West Cork also had an independent valuer assign a value of 1,300 on the cask once it hits 5 years mark.

Anyone who believes a cask of Irish whiskey is worth 5/6k on an open market is in for a rude awakening.

lawrencesummers · 01-01-2020 10:46pm

I was considering investing in WCD, but doing research I came across some information about a person heavily involved in them that put me off. There is every possibility that some distilleries will fail, some businesses are well run and some are not.

I know the precise details of A few founding father Dingle distillery casks and the investors have done very well.

Whiskey looks to be a great investment, the worldwide markets that exist along with how well Ireland promotes its products could make us compete with scotch down the road. Coming from a market share that is so small the only way is up.

bcklschaps · 05-01-2020 11:57am

This article should serve as a wake-up call to anybody who thinks there's goin to be a scarcity of Irish Whiskey in the future. It looks like every man and his dog is settin up a Whiskey distillery.....soo the opposite will likely be the case

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/whiskey-rush-as-distillery-numbers-hit-120-year-high-38834515.htmlfff

You don't have to be a mastermind to figure out whats goin to happen to quality, reputation and prices for Irish Whiskey in the not too distant future.

bcklschaps · 05-01-2020 12:08pm

as an addendum to my previous post

https://www.businesspost.ie/hospitality/teeling-warns-of-shake-out-in-whiskey-sector-990b1b11

finbarrk · 06-07-2021 12:26pm

Anyone know how this whiskey investment thing is going? I was just reading about it earlier.

Cazale · 16-12-2021 10:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117602841#Comment_117602841

Securities Commissioner Travis J. Iles entered an emergency cease and desist order to stop an illegal international whiskey investment scheme. The order names Whiskey & Wealth Club Limited, a firm based in England and Scotland, as well as its principals and sales agents.

According to the order, Whiskey & Wealth Club is advertising the scheme through the internet – using a website, and promoting advertisements published in Reddit, and social media platforms such as Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, and LinkedIn. It is also allegedly using other media to bolster its legitimacy, including various press releases and articles published in Forbes, Bloomberg, Yahoo Finance and Fox Business News.

The pitch is simple: whiskey improves with age and investing in whiskey improves returns over time. Investors purchase casks of whiskey from foreign distilleries, store the whiskey in overseas facilities and then sell the whiskey for a profit. Whiskey & Wealth Club is touting the returns – claiming investors can earn between 12 and 20 percent annualized returns if investors hold their whiskey for at least three years and preferably five to 10 years. Whiskey & Wealth Club purportedly provides discounted brokerage services, permitting investors to liquidate their whiskey for a below-market fee.

https://www.ssb.texas.gov/news-publications/risky-whiskey-securities-commissioner-stops-international-investment-scheme