no income tax cuts from irelands "right wing" party

Low wages compared to cost of living is really the main issue in society right now.
The cost of things like education and rent have at least doubled since 2008. But wages are more or less the same.
Insurance premiums are way more expensive and it’s almost impossible for lots of people to buy a home.

Either the wages need to increase or the costs decrease.

Thelonious Monk

I kinda hope they raise social welfare and pensions considerably. I love how it annoys people. Its not like the gov would use the money wisely anyway so may as well be in the pockets of ordinary folk.

suicide_circus

ittakestwo wrote: »

I remember Eurostat did a study on the difference between public and private pay in all the EU countries about 10 years ago. Three counties were way ahead of the rest on the list, Ireland Greece and Portugal..... the only 3 countries that needed an IMF/EU bailout.

very simply it is that these 3 countries were (are) paying their public servants more than the country could afford thereby putting the state in debt which meant we were less able to weather financial shocks when they came. Nothing has changed btw.

facehugger99

rossie1977 wrote: »

All across the country cuts are being made be it post offices, garda stations, hospitals, schools, bus services etc etc despite the fact Ireland is posting budget surpluses. Eventually something will give like it did in France with the yellow vests. Those protests were mainly rural French who had gotten screwed for decades and saw public services disappear while corporations and the top 0.1% in society reaped the benefits.

I must have missed these.

We're pretty much breaking even despite that huge increase in employment numbers. Most of the increases in tax revenues have been frittered away and budgets in Health in particular are spiraling out of control.

Between 2009 and 2013 we had a deficit of over €73 billion! This has been added to the national debt. Public sector workers, pensioners and SW recipients were kept in the style to which they had become accustomed throughout the recession.

We are royally fcuked when the next recession arrives and it's the Private Sector workers who once again will bear the brunt of it.

Thelonious Monk

If we are so screwed when the next recesh comes why does everyone want more tax cuts? Shouldnt there be a moratorium on hiring in non front line public servants too at this stage?

is_that_so

facehugger99 wrote: »

I must have missed these.

We're pretty much breaking even despite that huge increase in employment numbers. Most of the increases in tax revenues have been frittered away and budgets in Health in particular are spiraling out of control.

Between 2009 and 2013 we had a deficit of over €73 billion! This has been added to the national debt.

We are royally fcuked when the next recession arrives.

There might be a surplus this year and next year there was hope of one. Budgets deficits are limited by EU Rules, unless you're France or Germany of course. Deficits are funded by borrowings, which is sovereign debt. Don't confuse it with the normal debt we all have to repay. It's rarely repaid and just rolled over. Repayments on this debt is very manageable and that's what matters. The only way we might be in trouble in the next recession is a return to the very high levels of unemployment at the end of the last decade. We have austerity budgets for that!

Snow Garden

Portsalon wrote: »

Might that be because people aren't paying sufficient tax to enable the HSE to recruit the correct number of specialists that are required to serve the public in a timely manner?

If so, shouldn't you be complaining that we're not paying enough tax?

I am surprised you see it in such simplistic terms even now. I worked for nearly 2 years in the HSE and I saw waste on a grand scale. Sickening waste. I would even call some of it corruption. I was involved in projects relating to technology driven process improvements so I was able to analyse various roles, responsibilities and workflows. The waste and inefficiency overseen by a bloated middle management layer was astonishing. I mean waste in both time and money but especially money. A huge percentage of middle managers did not add any value to what was a complete bureaucracy - a bureaucracy protected by the unions.

Funding isn't the problem in the HSE. It's how those funds are utilised in a bloated bureaucracy. The front line workers are doing their very best under very difficult circumstances.

lawred2

Deleted User wrote: »

Low wages compared to cost of living is really the main issue in society right now.
The cost of things like education and rent have at least doubled since 2008. But wages are more or less the same.
Insurance premiums are way more expensive and it’s almost impossible for lots of people to buy a home.

Either the wages need to increase or the costs decrease.

taxes have substantially increased since 2008 as well

lawred2

ittakestwo wrote: »

@second paragraph. FG came to power in early 2011 and unemployment was 15% and a huge social problem. It's now 5%. Alot of people have got back to work and are not on the dole.

@OP Ireland is going through a boom. If we learned any economic lesson from the last boom it's not to pour fuel on a boom with tax give away budgets..... because when the business cycle eventaly goes bad you have to take it back and that's when you really hear about peoples self of entitlement.

Irelands capital budget was smashed in the recession and are biggest social problem today is housing problem. To me they shouldn't have a giveaway budget but put any extra cash back into the capital budget.

so you would believe that an Irish government to actually act counter cyclically?

If Ireland hits the skids post Brexit you can be damn sure you'll see personal taxes increased.

is_that_so

Snow Garden wrote: »

I am surprised you see it in such simplistic terms even now. I worked for nearly 2 years in the HSE and I saw waste on a grand scale. Sickening waste. I would even call some of it corruption. I was involved in projects relating to technology driven process improvements so I was able to analyse various roles, responsibilities and workflows. The waste and inefficiency overseen by a bloated middle management layer was astonishing. I mean waste in both time and money but especially money. A huge percentage of middle managers did not add any value to what was a complete bureaucracy - a bureaucracy protected by the unions.

Funding isn't the problem in the HSE. It's how those funds are utilised in a bloated bureaucracy. The front line workers are doing their very best under very difficult circumstances.

The problems stretch right down to the front line staff, who for some reason always get a free pass. They too are vested interests. The admin issue is known and they've attempted to clear house a few times. Often it's more a question of how those admin work. Hospital management IMO is where the real trouble lies. Most seem incapable of managing a budget and rely on the tried and trusted wailing of having no money to blackmail the DOH into coughing up more cash.

Idbatterim

If like another poster says , there is seven hundred million available to spend , allowing for the massive overspend with the nch etc. seven hundred million with a “ booming “ economy. Lol if the **** hits the fan!!! Lol!

NIMAN

Are they not being prudent?

It makes sense not to be giving loads of people tax cuts or rises in pension/dole, when we have no idea how Brexit is going to affect the economy and country.

For me its wise to wait and see, and then they can be more generous should Brexit not have too bad an effect.

Idbatterim

https://m.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/anger-over-affordable-redevelopment-where-buyers-will-need-to-earn-at-least-108k-per-year-and-have-42k-savings-38489598.html

More comedy there! 420,000 for a three bed , that your neighbor gets for free! So 420,000 after a thirty year mortgage and after tax! They are effectively giving the free house brigade over a million euro in housing supports , if given a property for say fifty years with a market rent of e1250 ( which would get you a kennel in Dublin ) !

lawred2

Idbatterim wrote: »

https://m.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/anger-over-affordable-redevelopment-where-buyers-will-need-to-earn-at-least-108k-per-year-and-have-42k-savings-38489598.html

More comedy there! 420,000 for a three bed , that your neighbor gets for free! So 420,000 after a thirty year mortgage and after tax! They are effectively giving the free house brigade over a million euro in housing supports , if given a property for say fifty years with a market rent of e1250 ( which would get you a kennel in Dublin ) !

morally bankrupt really

drunkmonkey

NIMAN wrote: »

Are they not being prudent?

They've wasted money left right and center. You can't put FG and prudent in the same sentence anymore.
Look over in the work and jobs thread and see public servants wanting to leave as they actually have nothing to do in their jobs and there getting a pay rise. It beggers belief, nothing has been learned after the recession.

weldoninhio

kneemos wrote: »

He actually said there won't be an increase for the dole and pensioners.

Mr Donohoe also said that increases will be made to social welfare payments.

is_that_so

weldoninhio wrote: »

Mr Donohoe also said that increases will be made to social welfare payments.

"Focused" and "targeted" increases.

weldoninhio

tayto lover wrote: »

They should give it to the army people who have very poor wages.

https://www.defence.ie/rates-pay-and-allowances-permanent-defence-forces

Yeah, it's not like someone can look up the pay before they join. :rolleyes:

is_that_so

drunkmonkey wrote: »

They've wasted money left right and center. You can't put FG and prudent in the same sentence anymore.
Look over in the work and jobs thread and see public servants wanting to leave as they actually have nothing to do in their jobs and there getting a pay rise. It beggers belief, nothing has been learned after the recession.

A link to 2005 for comparison. It could have been written recently!

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/with-a-little-care-public-projects-can-cost-much-less-1.442219

Ulysses Gaze

Dunno why any of you are voting in General Elections.

It's either FF, the ideology free zone who tend to bankrupt the county. Or FG that are good for a 5 year term to clean up FF's inevitable ****-ups but after that they become redundant.

I gave up voting in GEs and now only vote in Referenda.

Saves me the aggravation and high blood pressure.

drunkmonkey

is_that_so wrote: »

A link to 2005 for comparison. It could have been written recently!

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/with-a-little-care-public-projects-can-cost-much-less-1.442219

Unreal. There literally FF without a global financial crisis to worry about.

lawred2

is_that_so wrote: »

"Focused" and "targeted" increases.

voting pensioners in other words

is_that_so

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Dunno why any of you are voting in General Elections.

It's either FF, the ideology free zone who tend to bankrupt the county. Or FG that are good for a 5 year term to clean up FF's inevitable ****-ups but after that they become redundant.

I gave up voting in GEs and now only vote in Referenda.

Saves me the aggravation and high blood pressure.

Clearly not, if you're bashing your keyboard on here! It's the same model worldwide. The problem with this type of argument here is there is little credibility to other wannabee government parties. If they are so bad you should be telling them and not just venting here.

is_that_so

lawred2 wrote: »

voting pensioners in other words

All pensioners vote regardless.

piplip87

Let's call a spade a spade here. The social welfare bill is far too high but no government are willing to take it on. We have certain types

Firstly Type 1 : we all know lads who've been on the dole too long, there living at home, throwing 40 or 50 quid a week to the mother and are left with 150 a week to spend as they wish. They go out every weekend, and buy the latest Xbox games with a bag of weed to pass the time.

Then we have the Margaret Cash types. 7 or 8 kids, council house, back to school, children's allowance, medical card who could be getting 40-50K yearly in social welfare payments without any of the tax, medical costs, rent, etc. Thes types are better off with more disposable income than somebody working earning 70K a year. Many type 1 ambition is to one day have enough to kids to live like this.

Then we have the dole bums for life. Signed on at 18 will attend JobPath, courses and even the odd CE scheme to keep the dole payment. They spend Thier days drinking cans and listening to country music, blaming foreigners for them been out of work.....

These people are gaming the system and screwing us all. These are the ones that should be cut, given supermarket vouchers for food, nappies etc and basically just enough to survive on.

Then we have the fella who lost a job lately with a mortgage, kids and ****load of bills where the social welfare payment is just about keeping his head above water. He is using social welfare as it is ment to be used.

We have a young woman who is 34 and worked right up until her diagnosis, she has MS that means she cannot work until it is stabilized and even after that some days she will be in severe pain and it's a struggle to get out of bed, she fears that if she misses a day or two of work she cannot feed her kids but life on disability payments is not who she is.

I know somebody in the position of the last two people.on this list. They should be taken care off and in first 6-9 Months of losing a job the social welfare payment should match your take home pay, retraining/up-skilling provided and then a small 2% levy on your wages to help repay it back when you return to work.

As for those with a disability or illness the fear of numerous sick days or missing pay should be taken away from them. Disability payments should be separated from the social welfare rates as in many cases the person would work if well enough, remove the barriers to work for them, but make sure government assistance is there for them of there are periods where they cannot work and give employers incentives to employ people with illnesses such as MS.

CalamariFritti

If you look across Europe we're one of the lowest income tax countries. Also this OP is rather weird. it has a big quote and then everyone including the OP rambles on about things that were absolutely not in that text.

I'm as left as they come and I disagree with a lot this government does most importantly that market umber alles mantra. However they have kept us on the straight, they conduct themselves well in the whole Brexit thing and with Brexit looming now is the time to be prudent. Not sure what they're supposed to be saying tbh.

You guys need to get over that petty my-neighbour-pays-40- a-week-for -the-same-house thing. If its that great why don't you give up your job and get yourself a 40-a-week house too?

piplip87

CalamariFritti wrote: »

If you look across Europe we're one of the lowest income tax countries. Also this OP is rather weird. it has a big quote and then everyone including the OP rambles on about things that were absolutely not in that text.

I'm as left as they come and I disagree with a lot this government does most importantly that market umber alles mantra. However they have kept us on the straight, they conduct themselves well in the whole Brexit thing and with Brexit looming now is the time to be prudent. Not sure what they're supposed to be saying tbh.

You guys need to get over that petty my-neighbour-pays-40- a-week-for -the-same-house thing. If its that great why don't you give up your job and get yourself a 40-a-week house too?

No we would not be one of the lowest income tax countries. The too marginal tax rate here is 52% on incomes over 70,000 look at this table and see around Europe what you have to earn in other countries to get 52% taken in tax.
https://taxfoundation.org/top-individual-income-tax-rates-europe-2019/


The thine about the houses is inequality. It is unequal that a neighbor who has never worked a day in Thier life pays 40 quid a week for the exact same house as somebody working round to clock to provide for a family. That's not fair.

The blame for this lies with the government for not building social houses thougn

NIMAN

drunkmonkey wrote: »

They've wasted money left right and center. You can't put FG and prudent in the same sentence anymore.
Look over in the work and jobs thread and see public servants wanting to leave as they actually have nothing to do in their jobs and there getting a pay rise. It beggers belief, nothing has been learned after the recession.

Every Gov wastes money, its nearly their job description. Give me an example of a Gov in Ireland that hasn't and I'll vote for them.

And maybe all the more reason to show a little caution in this budget? The unending hole in the health service, our huge social welfare bill, Brexit, the childrens hospital, the housing crisis. There is plenty of places to spend money in this country without handing everyone a few quid extra a week to buy their vote, is there?

And you can hardly blame FG for civil servants sitting around doing sweet FA. They have been doing that since the civil service was created, every previous Gov did the same.

tjhook

CalamariFritti wrote: »

If you look across Europe we're one of the lowest income tax countries.

But that's like the "we all went mad spending" quote when talking about the Celtic Tiger. Some truth in it overall, but plasters over the differences between people.

When you delve down into the figures, there are approx. a third of all workers who pay no income tax. As a worker's pay increases, his/her tax direct pay relative to European countries grows.

It's obvious when you consider that higher-paid professionals are offered a deduction in income tax to persuade them to come here - our income tax rates would be uncompetitive at that level.

If we are to have direct taxes like other European countries, it's the lower paid who will be affected the most. I don;t think that's a bad thing by the way, I think everybody should have a stake in the country's well-being.

lawred2

CalamariFritti wrote: »

If you look across Europe we're one of the lowest income tax countries. Also this OP is rather weird. it has a big quote and then everyone including the OP rambles on about things that were absolutely not in that text.

I'm as left as they come and I disagree with a lot this government does most importantly that market umber alles mantra. However they have kept us on the straight, they conduct themselves well in the whole Brexit thing and with Brexit looming now is the time to be prudent. Not sure what they're supposed to be saying tbh.

You guys need to get over that petty my-neighbour-pays-40- a-week-for -the-same-house thing. If its that great why don't you give up your job and get yourself a 40-a-week house too?

fallacy