51% of Northern Ireland voters back united Ireland

DEFTLEFTHAND

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I'm as Irish as they come, Roman Catholic, ancient Irish name and not a planters surname in sight on my family tree.

Jesus, Mary, Joseph. Once again that's so many shades of backwardness, bigotry and abject historical ignorance it really is shocking. It's up there with your previously, and sincerely, expressed view that the English "civilised" the Irish. Your almost obsessively (suspicious, in itself) stated animosity to people with a "planters[sic] surname" combined with your actual belief that Roman Catholicism is an Irish religion - eh, the key's in the first word - make John A. Costello look enlightened with his infamous 'I am an Irishman second, I am a Catholic first' remark. At least Costello didn't try to close off a future in our country to people because of the mere surname they have. Forget their qualities, abilities, contribution and focus on some atavistic shít they've no control over. Jesus. Shudder. It's the precise same school of thought which would exclude people from Irishness because of the skin colour and any other feature of a past they had nothing to do with.

Whether you and your fellow Roman Catholic, 26-county-only Catholic state, wannabe English royalists - only an online persona could actually fall off the edge that much - like it, this society is going to have to become more inclusive of all the positive things which the Irish Protestant tradition gives us. That will never include glorifying the savagery of the British Empire, which predictably enough your Europhobic self is quite supportive of. Your blood-based, sectarian intentionally exclusionist conception of Irishness has no place at all in the social or commercial world in which the vast, vast majority of citizens of this state reside in 2019. And thanks be to God for that.

suicide_circus

heart says yes, head says no

circadian

LoughNeagh2017 wrote: »

I would vote for a unified Ireland to annoy the unionists but I don't trust modern southern people, I don't like how liberal things are there these days but you can't discuss that here as you would get banned, you can only discuss things like that on underground areas of the internet as forums are a hive mind you see.

I will throw one comment out there though to get you thinking, how come the same people who are pro abortion are anti suicide? after all "my body, my choice?"

Liberalism is spreading beyond Derry and Belfast. It's pretty much a core component of any political idealolgy in the North that isn't UUP/DUP.

Better get used to it, the younger generation of both communities is freeing themselves of the shackles of the Catholic Church/Orange Order.

The process of divide and conquer that originated in the Dock strikes in Belfast in the early 1900's is finally falling apart. The Orange Order and the Catholic Church in NI needed each other to maintain control and relevance. They will fall behind asthe population becomes more Liberal. Tough **** to them, the behaviour of these organisations have a lot to answer for.

Stevieluvsye

suicide_circus wrote: »

heart says yes, head says no

Heart says no, head says no

maccored

circadian wrote: »

Liberalism is spreading beyond Derry and Belfast. It's pretty much a core component of any political idealolgy in the North that isn't UUP/DUP.

Better get used to it, the younger generation of both communities is freeing themselves of the shackles of the Catholic Church/Orange Order.

The process of divide and conquer that originated in the Dock strikes in Belfast in the early 1900's is finally falling apart. The Orange Order and the Catholic Church in NI needed each other to maintain control and relevance. They will fall behind asthe population becomes more Liberal. Tough **** to them, the behaviour of these organisations have a lot to answer for.

?

The catholic church havent held sway in the north for years. maybe older republicans hang on to religion, but any of them I grew up with certainly didnt give a sh!te about the catholic church

circadian

maccored wrote: »

?

The catholic church havent held sway in the north for years. maybe older republicans hang on to religion, but any of them I grew up with certainly didnt give a sh!te about the catholic church

Exactly, which is why social liberalism is growing in the North. Besides, catholics aren't all republicans.

The church does still hold massive sway in the educational system, it's still largely segregated. I went to Catholic schools in the North and the doctrine was still strict then. In fact the primate of Ireland had just taken over as principal of my secondary school in my last few years there.

statesaver

When the polls in the North are consistently polling at 65% + for a UI come back to me and we'll talk.

maccored

circadian wrote: »

Exactly, which is why social liberalism is growing in the North. Besides, catholics aren't all republicans.

The church does still hold massive sway in the educational system, it's still largely segregated. I went to Catholic schools in the North and the doctrine was still strict then. In fact the primate of Ireland had just taken over as principal of my secondary school in my last few years there.

Yeah but politically the church havent had any influence for many, many years

Junkyard Tom

statesaver wrote: »

When the polls in the North are consistently polling at 65% + for a UI come back to me and we'll talk.

65% will make little difference to 50% +1 as those steadfastly against a UI won't feature in the pro-UI vote in both counts.

daheff

kneemos wrote: »

Fifty one percent isn't really a resounding lets do it.

its enough to go an do a no deal Brexit apparently.



I just hope to god that people of the Republic vote no.

why do we want to take on that basket case of a country?


If anything, they should leave the UK first and try to become a country in their own right -functioning parliament/democracy/economy & all that. Then see about joining the Republic.

Donald Trump

lawred2 wrote: »

Any transition arrangement would take a decade or more with the UK contributing towards it's share of liabilities and responsibilities.

Even after a transition period, any pensions accrued while in the United kingdom would be paid by the crown in perpetuity..

Well given how reasonable they have been about paying their calculated 39bn of liabilities to the EU, I reckon it would be no problem






The Brits might be still looking for payback for the land annuities too

steddyeddy

What's substantial in this debate is the fact is that a vote to join the republic is also a vote to rejoin the EU. Most of the people in NI voted remain. They're being pulled out against their will.

blanch152

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/irish-unity-poses-greater-risks-to-northern-ireland-than-brexit-does-1.4016373


John Fitzgerald brings a little bit of reality to the debate.

"If the North came without an albatross of UK debt, then the Northern Ireland deficit to be shouldered by a united Ireland would be €8.4 billion, not €11.4 billion. However, even with this lower sum, if Ireland had to take over funding services in the North, it would reduce gross national income (GNI) in Ireland by over 3 per cent and would reduce Irish consumption by about 8 per cent. This reduction in the Irish standard of living could leave the standard of living in the North around 20 per cent higher than in the South, sustained by transfers from poorer southern households, possibly giving rise to resistance to the idea of unification."

"This would only be the start of the economic problems. If welfare payments in the North were brought to Irish levels, this would probably add another 50 per cent to the cost of supporting the North."


Pretty much what I have been saying all along.

begsbyOnaTrain

"This would only be the start of the economic problems. If welfare payments in the North were brought to Irish levels, this would probably add another 50 per cent to the cost of supporting the North."

It is a particular staggering difference that I'm not sure most people are aware of. In the UK the dole is £73 versus E180ish in the Republic.

I'd be interested to see the figures for how much trade NI does with the rest of the UK versus the Republic.

blanch152

begsbyOnaTrain wrote: »

"This would only be the start of the economic problems. If welfare payments in the North were brought to Irish levels, this would probably add another 50 per cent to the cost of supporting the North."

It is a particular staggering difference that I'm not sure most people are aware of. In the UK the dole is £73 versus E180ish in the Republic.

I'd be interested to see the figures for how much trade NI does with the rest of the UK versus the Republic.

From the same article:

"while the North would gain access to the wider EU market, this would not offset the major economic costs of losing the British market, where most of their exports are sold today. The economic costs of leaving the UK would certainly be bigger than the costs for Northern Ireland of Brexit."

I have always said that the better result for Northern Ireland economically is a border on this island, while the better result for the South is a border down the Irish Sea (of course, no Brexit is the best result).

This research confirms that view.

maccored

blanch152 wrote: »

From the same article:

"while the North would gain access to the wider EU market, this would not offset the major economic costs of losing the British market, where most of their exports are sold today. The economic costs of leaving the UK would certainly be bigger than the costs for Northern Ireland of Brexit."

I have always said that the better result for Northern Ireland economically is a border on this island, while the better result for the South is a border down the Irish Sea (of course, no Brexit is the best result).

This research confirms that view.

jaysus people - for the last time ..... the idea of the south taking over and paying for the north as is, is an incredibly stupid and silly idea. For a UI to happen, a nationwide debate would first have to occur and literally a brand new, inclusive state set up.

begsbyOnaTrain

blanch152 wrote: »

From the same article:

Well I should do some reading of links in future Cheers.

begsbyOnaTrain

maccored wrote: »

jaysus people - for the last time ..... the idea of the south taking over and paying for the north as is, is an incredibly stupid and silly idea. For a UI to happen, a nationwide debate would first have to occur and literally a brand new, inclusive state set up.

Agreed, I always saw some kind of confederation tbh. But regardless, in the meantime of that "debate" there are economic realities which would have to ironed out.

kneemos

maccored wrote: »

jaysus people - for the last time ..... the idea of the south taking over and paying for the north as is, is an incredibly stupid and silly idea. For a UI to happen, a nationwide debate would first have to occur and literally a brand new, inclusive state set up.

Could have a union, like Scotland.


The British Government is also the biggest employer in the north. Presumably this would also disappear

blanch152

maccored wrote: »

jaysus people - for the last time ..... the idea of the south taking over and paying for the north as is, is an incredibly stupid and silly idea. For a UI to happen, a nationwide debate would first have to occur and literally a brand new, inclusive state set up.

I would take the views of John Fitzgerald over an anonymous internet poster every day.

I heard part of his interview on Newstalk yesterday. The most interesting part was around the quality of the education system in the North and how this was the major problem with resolving issues up there.

piplip87

While the idea of a United Ireland appeals to plenty here, even myself. It's a romantic vision. In fairness how would it work ?

The NHS for example do we roll out the HSE in the north and expect them to start paying at hospitals and GP surgeries ? Do we roll out free healthcare for all down south ? If we don't harmonise it, thousands will flood the North for healthcare ?

What about social welfare ? Do we up the norths to 203 weekly or lower the dole down south ?

Property tax, water charges, bin collection would all have to be brought inline ?

Income tax, USC, PRSI would all have to be lined up ?

No party advocating a United Ireland have given enough answers to this ?

What would be the UKs role in the immediate aftermath of a United Ireland ?

What about the PSNI ? Surely there will be some unionists there that will oppose a United Ireland ?

What about unionist traditions ? Will the 12th but a national bank holiday ? This is something hard-line republicans won't go for as they see a United Ireland as a chance for vengeance against unionists for past discrimination.

The UDA, UVF etc are a worry but a United Ireland should not be stopped to appease them.

The only way I can see it working to to split Ireland into 5 regions.

Munster, Dublin/Commuter belt/, Connaught +Donegal, Leinster (+Cavan, Monaghan) and leave NI to themselves.

Give each area greater control over local issues. While a smaller national Parliament. Similar to how things are done on a state level in the states.

Sinbad_NI

I think the only way it will ever work (if you want by in from all in NI) is to create a new state.

Incorporating NI into ROI simply will never get acceptance from a very large party of the NI community.

I'm very sure many in ROI wouldn't want this, so all I can see is a huge mess down the line... if we're to learn anything from the shambles that is Brexit.

maccored

blanch152 wrote: »

I would take the views of John Fitzgerald over an anonymous internet poster every day.

I heard part of his interview on Newstalk yesterday. The most interesting part was around the quality of the education system in the North and how this was the major problem with resolving issues up there.

You keep that head in the sand there blanch152

begsbyOnaTrain

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

I think the only way it will ever work (if you want by in from all in NI) is to create a new state.

Incorporating NI into ROI simply will never get acceptance from a very large party of the NI community.

I'm very sure many in ROI wouldn't want this, so all I can see is a huge mess down the line... if we're to learn anything from the shambles that is Brexit.

That and the unification of Germany. Too much, too soon can lead to decades of sorting out the quick fix.

DEFTLEFTHAND

votecounts wrote: »

So let the terrorists win!!!

What Terrorist's? UDA and UVF at the present time operate as organised crime groups like the dissident Republicans in the north.

The worry here is that the two could go to war again in their full capacity if Brexit doesn't work out.

Sam Quentin

NIMAN wrote: »

Don't know why the NHS is held up as something special.

Its a mess, and in as much a state of chaos as our own health service.

That may well be the case!?
But you don't see it or feel it on the ground so much or as much as you do in Ireland.... And that's where it matters most when it comes to health services.