Principal Officer competition 2019

Tr1ckieD1ckie

Maestro123 wrote: »

Hi all, thanks for the very helpful info to date. I'm a current AP and also placed on the PO panel, and at the current rate hopefully will be reached in the Autumn at some point.

I was wondering whether anyone knows if many posts outside Dublin have come up/been offered as yet? Or if there is any info available on numbers of PO positions located within each county/zone? If you recall we were asked to indicate preference for up to 2 counties outside Dublin. The mobility map via DPER website only lists organisations but not which of those have PO positions available.

Many thanks

Just rechecking earlier communications with PAS and realised the number they quoted me was specifically for the Dublin panel- they phrase it there are currently approximately X candidates ahead of you on the Dublin panel- so if you had a particular county in mind and you've recorded your interest there I'm sure they can advise how many if any numbers of people had been placed for that county.

Tr1ckieD1ckie

Latest update- Dublin panel now in the late twenties or thereabouts

Molly Keane

Hi has anyone in this thread or reading this thread been appointed from this panel? Just wondering how it works in these virtual times with remote working the norm - is there a physical induction and an office environment? And how long did it take from offer through clearance to appointment? Thanks

Tr1ckieD1ckie

Pm sent

Grey AP

it seems things are rattling along at the moment. Has anyone at 30 or over been contacted yet?

Molly Keane

Grey AP wrote: »

it seems things are rattling along at the moment. Has anyone at 30 or over been contacted yet?

31 appointed apparently

Grey AP

Molly Keane wrote: »

31 appointed apparently

Excellent - still moving at about five a month. If the panel is 65 (no evidence to the contrary so far), then it is at nearly halfway less than six months from the first appointment. At this pace, it may hit mid 50s by year end.

hardybuck

Grey AP wrote: »

Excellent - still moving at about five a month. If the panel is 65 (no evidence to the contrary so far), then it is at nearly halfway less than six months from the first appointment. At this pace, it may hit mid 50s by year end.

Going back to previous discussion on the topic, that would be in line with our guesstimates that the panel would last until sometime in Q1-Q2 2021, after which point they'd be most likely to run another competition rather than dipping back into the 2019 pot again.

Molly Keane

hardybuck wrote: »

Going back to previous discussion on the topic, that would be in line with our guesstimates that the panel would last until sometime in Q1-Q2 2021, after which point they'd be most likely to run another competition rather than dipping back into the 2019 pot again.

A report in the Examiner last week (can’t find link now) suggested possible recruitment freeze in public service in response to deficit in October budget - hope it’s not the case

hardybuck

Molly Keane wrote: »

A report in the Examiner last week (can’t find link now) suggested possible recruitment freeze in public service in response to deficit in October budget - hope it’s not the case

Can't see it personally - as things stand.

Tr1ckieD1ckie

Molly Keane wrote: »

A report in the Examiner last week (can’t find link now) suggested possible recruitment freeze in public service in response to deficit in October budget - hope it’s not the case

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40025909.html

Grey AP

This report seems to have come out of the release, under FoI, of all the departmental briefings for new ministers. DPER usually sets out a range of very unpalatable measures for a new minister and pay/recruitment/promotion freezes are old favourites, which the fourth estate loves to pick out from the hundreds of pages of briefing. That doesn't mean that they won't happen, as they have been done before, but it has usually been in far bleaker circumstances (eg 1980s, 2008/9 bailout requirements), so this looks more like the opening salvo in preparations for the next public service pay agreement than a genuine budget proposal. (I think it is quite telling also that only one news outlet, as far as I am aware, has reported it.)

There's probably a glass half empty analysis too, but this is how I see it at the moment.

meteoris

Molly Keane wrote: »

31 appointed apparently

I was told today that there were 12 candidates before me in the Dublin panel.

As I am number 42, that means the next candidate is number 30.

This is roughly, but not exactly, in agreement with the numbers reported above. Does anybody have any further details?

Grey AP

meteoris wrote: »

I was told today that there were 12 candidates before me in the Dublin panel.

As I am number 42, that means the next candidate is number 30.

This is roughly, but not exactly, in agreement with the numbers reported above. Does anybody have any further details?

Waiting to hear back from PAS on the current position, but it can be hard to work out exactly what the information they give you means. For example, if you are at 42 and they say there are twelve people ahead of you, they could have made offers to people up to six places ahead of you, but another six ahead of them might have not accepted an offer yet or might be in clearance or holding out for a rural post.

It would be easier if PAS put up a table for each current panel, showing, in our case, nos. 1-65 and their status eg offer made, offer accepted, in clearance, appointment date agreed, appointed, withdrawn, waiting for non-Dublin offer etc. It could be updated weekly, would not breach confidentiality as numbers only and would save them a lot of work in answering queries. It would also make it a lot clearer where you stand, which is all we really want to know.

Grey AP

Well, the number of candidates that PAS says are ahead of me would indicate that the panel is only up to number 28, which we seem to be beyond.

I can only think that some replies from PAS are all the people ahead of you who are not actually in a post yet (including still under offer etc and those waiting for a non-Dublin offer) and some are the number reached on the panel, whether or not those ahead of them have accepted a job, left the panel and so on. I suppose it is a small enough difference but it is a bit unclear.

Molly Keane

I was told 10 days ago there were 5 ahead of me and I’m at number 36...so I posted we were at number 31! Now I’m really confused

Grey AP wrote: »

Well, the number of candidates that PAS says are ahead of me would indicate that the panel is only up to number 28, which we seem to be beyond.

I can only think that some replies from PAS are all the people ahead of you who are not actually in a post yet (including still under offer etc and those waiting for a non-Dublin offer) and some are the number reached on the panel, whether or not those ahead of them have accepted a job, left the panel and so on. I suppose it is a small enough difference but it is a bit unclear.

Conovski

Thanks for all the updates everyone.

Just wondering - I recall from previous competitions that PAS take batches for clearance. Would this have some impact on where people were told where the panel was?

meteoris

Molly Keane wrote: »

I was told 10 days ago there were 5 ahead of me and I’m at number 36...so I posted we were at number 31! Now I’m really confused

I think we are all confused. The system lacks clarity.

Tr1ckieD1ckie

If it helps I can confirm that at least 28 have been contacted and assigned to roles. I'm roundabout that number myself and have been appointed and have a start date confirmed with my new department.

I was contacted approximately one month ago to advise that my place on the panel had been reached and I had been assigned so unless things have ground to a complete halt..(which is possible given the time of year)... I'd guess the panel must be at least somewhere in the early thirties by now.

Grey AP

Perhaps it depends on what question you ask. This time, I asked what the current position on vacancies and appointments from this panel is and previously I've asked how many appointments have been made. I think next time I'll just ask what number the panel is up to.

Triapin

Do you have any say in what department you are placed in? Do they match you to your experience/skills?

An Ri rua

Triapin wrote: »

Do you have any say in what department you are placed in? Do they match you to your experience/skills?

No, not at any grade.

Conovski

The panel has reached 32, based on an update I received today about the number of people ahead of me on the panel

Grey AP

Triapin wrote: »

Do you have any say in what department you are placed in? Do they match you to your experience/skills?

As An Ri Rua said, strictly speaking the answer is no. We have been recruited as generalists onto a general panel, so we are expected to go anywhere as we have shown the core competencies and skills to carry out the PO role. In any event, PAS don't solicit vacancies, departments send them in, so they can't keep your place until something matching your skills or preferences comes up or keep such a post until your place on the panel comes up.

Informally, however, it may be useful to ask PAS about your preferences - if they have a bunch of vacancies come in together, they may be able to provide a sort of least unsuitable service to you. Similarly, your new department may have a post that fits your skills and it is certainly worthwhile, for a senior posting, contacting their HR unit once you have an offer. This may vary between departments, but in my experience HR in most places do their best for new entrants - no guarantees but you won't know if you don't ask.

Grey AP

And congratulations to Trickie Dickie on your appointment. That's great news.

Whaleseye

Hello,
Many thanks to all the posters for these very useful posts. I am on the panel with OOM in the 40’s. I’ve found it difficult to get much information on progress, timelines etc further than how many are ahead of me currently on the panel. As of last week, I understood that it was at around 33.
I just wondered if anyone had a sense of how long approximately it can take from your place being reached on the panel to actually starting in a new post (understanding of course that it can vary from dept to dept - I’m just wondering in general what to expect). I’m coming from outside the CS so this process is all very new to me.
Many thanks.

Xofpod

Whaleseye wrote: »

Hello,
Many thanks to all the posters for these very useful posts. I am on the panel with OOM in the 40’s. I’ve found it difficult to get much information on progress, timelines etc further than how many are ahead of me currently on the panel. As of last week, I understood that it was at around 33.
I just wondered if anyone had a sense of how long approximately it can take from your place being reached on the panel to actually starting in a new post (understanding of course that it can vary from dept to dept - I’m just wondering in general what to expect). I’m coming from outside the CS so this process is all very new to me.
Many thanks.

If you're in the 40s I'd imagine there can't be more than 10 or so ahead of you.
Re timelines, I was CS, promoted in my existing Dept and the process took 2-3 weeks for paperwork, etc. If they have to do full clearance for you I'd image it would be double that at least. Pure guesstimates on my part but hope it's some way helpful.

Xofpod

Sorry reread your message. You understand that the panel is currently at person #33? Sounds about right from what I hear.

celticfan1

Folks - just a thought.
Given the talk amongst some of a possible embargo on recruitment.
Is it possible that we could see some Departments rushing to this panel to fill posts in the near future ??

Whaleseye

Xofpod wrote: »

If you're in the 40s I'd imagine there can't be more than 10 or so ahead of you.
Re timelines, I was CS, promoted in my existing Dept and the process took 2-3 weeks for paperwork, etc. If they have to do full clearance for you I'd image it would be double that at least. Pure guesstimates on my part but hope it's some way helpful.

That’s really helpful. Thanks so much! First straight answer I’ve managed to get

Tr1ckieD1ckie

Whaleseye wrote: »

Hello,
Many thanks to all the posters for these very useful posts. I am on the panel with OOM in the 40’s. I’ve found it difficult to get much information on progress, timelines etc further than how many are ahead of me currently on the panel. As of last week, I understood that it was at around 33.
I just wondered if anyone had a sense of how long approximately it can take from your place being reached on the panel to actually starting in a new post (understanding of course that it can vary from dept to dept - I’m just wondering in general what to expect). I’m coming from outside the CS so this process is all very new to me.
Many thanks.

Might happen faster than you think- from reaching my place on the OOM, it took PAS 8 days to complete clearance (and I'm an external applicant) and some of that was taking in my chasing up one of my referees. Took another couple of weeks to agree a confirm date with my new Department and receive the contract- and with a notice period to serve in my current role, will be starting in a few weeks time, roughly 7 weeks after my place was reached in the OOM.

hardybuck

It will depend on what Department you're being assigned to and how many addresses you've lived at.

If you're being sent to somewhere like D/Justice you'll have to do a more specific vetting process. I know people waiting 2 months for the vetting process to be completed when going there.

If you've lived multiple places around the country, or abroad, that might impact your timelines too.

I'd say about a month is about right between getting everything ready to go - including vetting, references and agreeing a starting date.

Whaleseye

Tr1ckieD1ckie wrote: »

HI There

Might happen faster than you think- from reaching my place on the OOM, it took PAS 8 days to complete clearance (and I'm an external applicant) and some of that was taking in my chasing up one of my referees. Took another couple of weeks to agree a confirm date with my new Department and receive the contract- and with a notice period to serve in my current role, will be starting in a few weeks time, roughly 7 weeks after my place was reached in the OOM.

Ah that’s interesting - not too long then overall. Thanks for that, much appreciated.
Many congrats on your appointment. Hope it goes really well.
It will be strange for us starting a new job in these times. Presume it’s work from home for now at least? Is there a good induction process do you know? Possibly depends on the dept..?

Thanks again.

Whaleseye

hardybuck wrote: »

It will depend on what Department you're being assigned to and how many addresses you've lived at.

If you're being sent to somewhere like D/Justice you'll have to do a more specific vetting process. I know people waiting 2 months for the vetting process to be completed when going there.

If you've lived multiple places around the country, or abroad, that might impact your timelines too.

I'd say about a month is about right between getting everything ready to go - including vetting, references and agreeing a starting date.

Ah good to know. I’ve had vetting done before for another role (relatively recently), so that may or may not help. We’ll see!
Many thanks.

Tr1ckieD1ckie

hardybuck wrote: »

It will depend on what Department you're being assigned to and how many addresses you've lived at.

If you're being sent to somewhere like D/Justice you'll have to do a more specific vetting process. I know people waiting 2 months for the vetting process to be completed when going there.

If you've lived multiple places around the country, or abroad, that might impact your timelines too.

I'd say about a month is about right between getting everything ready to go - including vetting, references and agreeing a starting date.

Agreed, I've lived in about 6 addresses some in Ireland and overseas and the Garda Clearance process was still super quick- completed in 2/3 days though as you note the process would be more intense and could take a lot longer for certain security sensitive roles like Justice or AGS. Because my period overseas was over a decade ago PAS didn't require a police cert from the other country so that could have slowed things down if it was more recent

Tr1ckieD1ckie

Whaleseye wrote: »

Ah good to know. I’ve had vetting done before for another role (relatively recently), so that may or may not help. We’ll see!
Many thanks.

So had I, but I believe each potential organisation is required to complete a separate vetting process with AGS

Tr1ckieD1ckie

Whaleseye wrote: »

Ah that’s interesting - not too long then overall. Thanks for that, much appreciated.
Many congrats on your appointment. Hope it goes really well.
It will be strange for us starting a new job in these times. Presume it’s work from home for now at least? Is there a good induction process do you know? Possibly depends on the dept..?

Thanks again.

Thanks for the good wishes, looking forward to it but also a little apprehensive in the circumstances. I've been given to understand primarily working remotely, which brings its own challenges!

Some interesting advice here about what to expect https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058106990

Suggests there might not be too much by way of structured induction given the seniority of the role.

Hope you're not waiting too long either
Best
TD

Whaleseye

Tr1ckieD1ckie wrote: »

Thanks for the good wishes, looking forward to it but also a little apprehensive in the circumstances. I've been given to understand primarily working remotely, which brings its own challenges!

Some interesting advice here about what to expect

Suggests there might not be too much by way of structured induction given the seniority of the role.

Hope you're not waiting too long either
Best
TD

Most excellent! Many thanks

bluegreenred

Great to see some on here getting placed - congratulations! And left field question for those on the inside, is PO the best chance for an external candidate to get into the civil service tent? What chance getting promoted elsewhere and targeting assistant secretary in the future? I assume it’s very difficult to break in at that level but I could be wrong. Very hypothetical I know.

Tr1ckieD1ckie

bluegreenred wrote: »

Great to see some on here getting placed - congratulations! And left field question for those on the inside, is PO the best chance for an external candidate to get into the civil service tent? What chance getting promoted elsewhere and targeting assistant secretary in the future? I assume it’s very difficult to break in at that level but I could be wrong. Very hypothetical I know.

Not a civil servant (yet!) so not really qualified to comment. However, in case it helps the Top Level Appointments Commission handle recruitment at A/Sec and Sec Gen (possibly other executive grades also, I'm not sure)

They don't appear to have published a report for a few years (least not on PER's website) but it contains some interesting data about the source of applicants to TLAC and the relative success of internal/external candidates. If I'm reading the stats right for 2017 5.5% of the successful candidates are external.


https://assets.gov.ie/5728/170119155115-624da66a3b9043e28efea61b7f267c9a.pdf

ps (Anyone any sense of an equivalent stat for this open PO competition??)

bluegreenred

Thanks very much. Answers the question perfectly. Pretty grim reading if trying to get in from the outside. Just 8% even if you are public but not civil service. And yeah 5.5% if private sector. Though 2017 appears to be low on both counts relative to the average of previous years.

In a way I’m a good example. Lost out in the final stage on one score in the presentation. My mistake was trying to be more tactful than a blow in with incomplete information making sweeping recommendations on a massive decision in a toxic environment. Think I took the role play too seriously!!! If I was inside the tent, I would say I’d have been warned against that.

bluegreenred

Maybe my last post was too pessimistic. A PO told me that few in the service get the open competition first time and that my mistake is pretty common. Though civil servants also have internal competitions. Does this ring true or was she just trying to make me feel better �� hopefully another PO competition in March!

Whaleseye

Anyone any sense of how things are moving this month? Seems to have been a lot slower movement in August (probably to be expected given holiday time). Hoping September might move quicker.. Anyone in the 30’s been called yet?

Grey AP

Up to 35 now, according to PAS, so that's maybe six or seven for the month. A few here just about to be contacted, I'd say.

Whaleseye

Grey AP wrote: »

Up to 35 now, according to PAS, so that's maybe six or seven for the month. A few here just about to be contacted, I'd say.

Ah interesting, thanks for that update. Hopefully will pick up a bit now over coming weeks.

AndrewJRenko

bluegreenred wrote: »

Maybe my last post was too pessimistic. A PO told me that few in the service get the open competition first time and that my mistake is pretty common. Though civil servants also have internal competitions. Does this ring true or was she just trying to make me feel better �� hopefully another PO competition in March!

There is certainly an element of 'practice makes perfect' in relation to the process for competitions, both the tests and perhaps more especially, the interviews. Interview practice is important, and coaching from an expert can be a big help too.

bluegreenred

Thanks AJR. The numbers are pretty much where months ago Grey AP said they would be. Fair play and to your “petit oiseau”! Looks like the panel will indeed be exhausted by around year end.

poundhound

Out of curiosity, has anyone here tried to skip a grade in applying for this competition i.e. HEO to PO?

Grey AP

bluegreenred wrote: »

Thanks AJR. The numbers are pretty much where months ago Grey AP said they would be. Fair play and to your “petit oiseau”! Looks like the panel will indeed be exhausted by around year end.

Cheers, BGR. Unfortunately, I have no little bird for the lottery numbers....

If that is the case (and it is looking likely as POs decide to retire in increasing numbers, having had that taste of freedom), then I think PAS would probably run a new PO comp fairly quickly. The retirements aren't going to stop and, in my dept and others, there is a shortage at that level already so demand will continue.

The only insect in the unguent is if the Govt decides to have a recruitment/promotion freeze, as a budgetary measure. However, that would be a pretty pointless gesture at PO level, given a panel of 65 POs would only cost the Exchequer around six or seven million to employ in full year costs, but non-replacement would involve significant management risk. (Psst - don't tell anyone, but if they were minded to do something, a pay freeze or cut would bring a far bigger return, in the realm of a few hundred million across the public service. DPER prefers big ticket savings.)

bluegreenred

Great news for all those left on the panel and for me waiting for the next competition! As you say, the budget could be an issue. Could even delay things until final choices are made. But I suspect there is too much riding on this government being a success for at least two of the parties involved for them to risk mismanagement in devising and implementing policies.