Principal Officer competition 2019

meteoris

Just got a reply with an update from clearance at publicjobs dot ie:

"There are currently 5 candidates ahead of you on the PO2019 panel."

As I am placed at 42, number 37 should be next.

Grey AP

poundhound wrote: »

Out of curiosity, has anyone here tried to skip a grade in applying for this competition i.e. HEO to PO?

I've only heard of one example of an HEO getting on a PO panel since things opened up - open comps and being able to apply for jobs more than one grade above you. There always seems to be a few AOs chancing their arms, but lack of experience, unless you also have an extensive non-CS CV, could be an issue.

hardybuck

Grey AP wrote: »

I've only heard of one example of an HEO getting on a PO panel since things opened up - open comps and being able to apply for jobs more than one grade above you. There always seems to be a few AOs chancing their arms, but lack of experience, unless you also have an extensive non-CS CV, could be an issue.

I heard of an AO in the recent past who made the jump, no idea how they got on, but extremely rare as you've mentioned.

I wouldn't recommend an AO or HEO chancing their arm for an open competition, the step up would be very tough to deal with, even if you have extensive career experience in the private sector.

Chancing your arm for PO internal competition would be frowned upon in my opinion, although a jump from CO to HEO does happen fairly regularly.

Conovski

hardybuck wrote: »

I heard of an AO in the recent past who made the jump, no idea how they got on, but extremely rare as you've mentioned.

I wouldn't recommend an AO or HEO chancing their arm for an open competition, the step up would be very tough to deal with, even if you have extensive career experience in the private sector.
Chancing your arm for PO internal competition would be frowned upon in my opinion, although a jump from CO to HEO does happen fairly regularly.

I know of at least two EOs who made the jump to AP on internal competitions (one coming very high on the panel in a large dept), but not from HEO to PO.

I think the whiplash for new POs can be severe, from what i hear

Conovski

meteoris wrote: »

Just got a reply with an update from clearance at publicjobs dot ie:

"There are currently 5 candidates ahead of you on the PO2019 panel."

As I am placed at 42, number 37 should be next.

Thanks Meteoris. This is really great to know

Whaleseye

Curious about the clearance process, in particular in relation to references. Would anyone know if they look for just one, or more? And is it done by phone or email, or do they ask them to complete and return a form? Would be handy to have them (referees) lined up.. thanks

Tr1ckieD1ckie

PAS advised me they needed a reference from all my managers in the past three years. In my case that was three different managers.
Form was sent by email afaik.

Whaleseye

Tr1ckieD1ckie wrote: »

PAS advised me they needed a reference from all my managers in the past three years. In my case that was three different managers.
Form was sent by email afaik.

Good to know. Many thanks.

Tr1ckieD1ckie

Conovski wrote: »

I know of at least two EOs who made the jump to AP on internal competitions (one coming very high on the panel in a large dept), but not from HEO to PO.

I think the whiplash for new POs can be severe, from what i hear

Interesting observation Conovski... and one I've heard some serving POs express in different ways also. General consensus is that the transition to PO can be challenging.
Was thinking it might be helpful to pull together an informal network of recently commenced / about to commence POs to support each other, share our experiences and to act as a sounding board etc.

If anyone else thinks a network like this might be something they would find helpful, feel free to dm me.

Conovski

Tr1ckieD1ckie wrote: »

[/B]

Interesting observation Conovski... and one I've heard some serving POs express in different ways also. General consensus is that the transition to PO can be challenging.
Was thinking it might be helpful to pull together an informal network of recently commenced / about to commence POs to support each other, share our experiences and to act as a sounding board etc.

If anyone else thinks a network like this might be something they would find helpful, feel free to dm me.

Thanks Tr1ckie D1ckie, that's a very good idea. DM on its way

bluegreenred

Great idea Trickie. Hope it goes well and that I’ll be in a position to suggest it in the “principal officer competition 2020 or 2021” thread if I make it into the panel.

meteoris

Hi all,

This resource might be of use as you consider your offer or try to get established in your department:
whodoeswhat dot gov dot ie
(Apologies I am not allowed by the system to post the actual URL)

You can choose any of the departments to see the Org Structure down to Principal Officer level.

Grey AP

Not sure that there is a particularly reliable source of information at the moment. Whodoeswhatdotgovdotie used to go down to PO level but doesn't appear to any more and it has not been updated for the new departments under this government. Wwwdotgovdotie is a bit of a mishmash, directing you to external sites which have a mix of updated and outdated information and sites don't present info on structures in the same way. You would think that all those information officers and offices would get everyone into line on simple information about how our government works, like showing the SG, ASGs and roles, POs under each ASG etc and what they do. I am quite disappointed in my own colleagues here.

richardjjd

meteoris wrote: »

Just got a reply with an update from clearance at publicjobs dot ie:

"There are currently 5 candidates ahead of you on the PO2019 panel."

As I am placed at 42, number 37 should be next.

Any news @Meteoris? There are some who are below you in the list and wondering how things are going!

Whaleseye

As a matter of interest, would anyone know if they tell you what department you’re being offered when you’re contacted for Clearance, or do you only find out having gone through that process?
Thanks,

Tr1ckieD1ckie

Whaleseye wrote: »

As a matter of interest, would anyone know if they tell you what department you’re being offered when you’re contacted for Clearance, or do you only find out having gone through that process?
Thanks,

Hi Whaleseye.

Yes in my experience they do. The format of my notification was:
Your place on the panel has been reached and you have been provisionally assigned to X.

Also included a contact person in the department for any informal queries
Best
TD

Whaleseye

Tr1ckieD1ckie wrote: »

Hi Whaleseye.

Yes in my experience they do. The format of my notification was:
Your place on the panel has been reached and you have been provisionally assigned to X.

Also included a contact person in the department for any informal queries
Best
TD

Ah that’s good to know. Thanks TrickieD!

Maestro123

richardjjd wrote: »

Any news @Meteoris? There are some who are below you in the list and wondering how things are going!

Hi folks, I have it on good authority (another 'petit oiseau'!) that no. 38 has just been called for clearance - hope that helps!

meteoris

richardjjd wrote: »

Any news @Meteoris? There are some who are below you in the list and wondering how things are going!

Hi richardjjd and all,

I was just told that there is only one candidate ahead of me for the Dublin panel, so that means lots of progress this week as 41 is due next.

Conovski

Thanks Meteoris, that's some movement alright. Cheers for sharing the update

Grey AP

Grey AP wrote: »

Not sure that there is a particularly reliable source of information at the moment. Whodoeswhatdotgovdotie used to go down to PO level but doesn't appear to any more and it has not been updated for the new departments under this government. Wwwdotgovdotie is a bit of a mishmash, directing you to external sites which have a mix of updated and outdated information and sites don't present info on structures in the same way. You would think that all those information officers and offices would get everyone into line on simple information about how our government works, like showing the SG, ASGs and roles, POs under each ASG etc and what they do. I am quite disappointed in my own colleagues here.

Correction here. I mentioned to a colleague that whodoeswhatdotgovdotie no longer seems to show POs, but they pointed out that if you click on the assistant secretary's name above their photo, not the division or title underneath, you will see the POs in that division and their roles. However, it still largely hasn't been updated for the new government and departments (for example, my own dept features quite a few retired POs and now redundant posts), though it will give you a general walk around of your new department.
And well done to all the newly appointed so far this month (I think it is about eight) and it'd be nice to hear of your experiences and first impressions.

hardybuck

Grey AP wrote: »

Correction here. I mentioned to a colleague that whodoeswhatdotgovdotie no longer seems to show POs, but they pointed out that if you click on the assistant secretary's name above their photo, not the division or title underneath, you will see the POs in that division and their roles. However, it still largely hasn't been updated for the new government and departments (for example, my own dept features quite a few retired POs and now redundant posts), though it will give you a general walk around of your new department.
And well done to all the newly appointed so far this month (I think it is about eight) and it'd be nice to hear of your experiences and first impressions.

Transfer of functions process not completed and therefore new Departments don't exist yet.

meteoris

hardybuck wrote: »

Transfer of functions process not completed and therefore new Departments don't exist yet.

Useful observation Hardybuck. Thanks! When is the transfer of functions process expected to be completed?

hardybuck

meteoris wrote: »

Useful observation Hardybuck. Thanks! When is the transfer of functions process expected to be completed?

Probably in advance of the budget so they'll know what allocation they have next year.

tea and coffee

Some (all?) were approved by Cabinet this week afaik

Grey AP

Delegation orders for junior ministers are starting to roll in also.

Grey AP

Any numbers updates? I just got a reply indicating that the panel is up to number 38, but going on recent replies, I think this must mean 38 appointments rather than offers, as Meteoris said a couple of weeks ago that 41 is next (ie up to 40).

Whaleseye

Grey AP wrote: »

Any numbers updates? I just got a reply indicating that the panel is up to number 38, but going on recent replies, I think this must mean 38 appointments rather than offers, as Meteoris said a couple of weeks ago that 41 is next (ie up to 40).

Yes, zero movement in the last two weeks. 41 is next apparently (as confirmed to me by PAS last week too) and I have it on good authority (little oiseau etc!) that 41 has not been contacted to date.

meteoris

Grey AP wrote: »

Any numbers updates? I just got a reply indicating that the panel is up to number 38, but going on recent replies, I think this must mean 38 appointments rather than offers, as Meteoris said a couple of weeks ago that 41 is next (ie up to 40).

Hi Grey AP,

I got confirmation this week that the status for the Dublin Panel was the same as the update I received two week ago.

If 38 does not refer to appointments, then the only way I can reconcile what they are telling you with what they are telling me is to assume that some of the people between 38 and 41 may not be in the Dublin Panel...

I do not understand how they are managing to make a simple list look so complicated.

Conovski

meteoris wrote: »

Hi Grey AP,

I got confirmation this week that the status for the Dublin Panel was the same as the update I received two week ago.

If 38 does not refer to appointments, then the only way I can reconcile what they are telling you with what they are telling me is to assume that some of the people between 38 and 41 may not be in the Dublin Panel...

I do not understand how they are managing to make a simple list look so complicated.

Thanks Meteoris/Grey AP
I haven't sought an update from PAS, but I did hear that a Dept took three in one go from the panel recently (in the past couple of weeks) which would broadly tally with the numbers moving from 37/8 to 40 around then (16/18th Sept).

Grey AP

meteoris wrote: »

Hi Grey AP,

I got confirmation this week that the status for the Dublin Panel was the same as the update I received two week ago.

If 38 does not refer to appointments, then the only way I can reconcile what they are telling you with what they are telling me is to assume that some of the people between 38 and 41 may not be in the Dublin Panel...

I do not understand how they are managing to make a simple list look so complicated.

That makes sense. I think it would be a lot easier if PAS just posted a table, numbered 1-65 and updated weekly, with columns for offer made, accepted/refused, in clearance, appointed. It's anonymous and would save PAS a lot of work and us a bit of anxiety and confusion.

celticfan1

Folks - any movement on this panel - seems to have slowed up somewhat!

meteoris

celticfan1 wrote: »

Folks - any movement on this panel - seems to have slowed up somewhat!

I have not heard of any progress for the last four weeks.

Whaleseye

meteoris wrote: »

I have not heard of any progress for the last four weeks.

Ditto

Grey AP

There were some appointments to my dept in September (welcome everyone and congratulations :)) but as they seem to be mostly non-CS, and would have had to do clearance, I assume they were counted in August or before by PAS.

PS Not quite sure how a smiley face arrived at the top of this - only meant to be after the congrats.

Whaleseye

I wonder whether departments are waiting for budget allocations before progressing?

Seems strange to have had almost a month now with seemingly no movement at all...

hardybuck

There's always a lot of movement around the system in September. Everyone is back from holidays and the engine of Government business kicks up a gear.

I suspect that there was a lot of movement in early September which led to a bit of a lull afterwards.

I don't think the 2021 budget would have had much of an impact. There will be more public spending, but I don't think you'll see much of an increase for additional payroll in Civil Service organisations, particularly at PO level.

There has also been mention of people holding on for the 2% pay increase in October. While there are definitely some people in this boat, I think the numbers will be low - there is no way I'd be hanging on for another year or two for such a small financial bonus.

I actually think there's going to be more people holding on for a while who had previously intended to retire by now. Can't go anywhere to enjoy the retirement and can work from home while this whole COVID thing continues.

VillageIdiot71

Whaleseye wrote: »

Yes, zero movement in the last two weeks. 41 is next apparently (as confirmed to me by PAS last week too) and I have it on good authority (little oiseau etc!) that 41 has not been contacted to date.

Just to confirm, I got an update from PAS yesterday that basically means no advance on that.

Grey AP

VillageIdiot71 wrote: »

Just to confirm, I got an update from PAS yesterday that basically means no advance on that.

Same. Looks like depts have squared their debts to the open panel and are promoting from within at the moment.

Tr1ckieD1ckie

Grey AP wrote: »

Same. Looks like depts have squared their debts to the open panel and are promoting from within at the moment.

My new department has recently launched an Internal PO competition which closes this week.

Guess maybe they didn't like the look of the external candidates who arrived of late!

On a more serious note, the waiting is undoubtedly tough, but hang in there and stay positive. It'll happen in due course for those waiting on the panel, I've no doubt

hardybuck

Tr1ckieD1ckie wrote: »

My new department has recently launched an Internal PO competition which closes this week.

Guess maybe they didn't like the look of the external candidates who arrived of late!

On a more serious note, the waiting is undoubtedly tough, but hang in there and stay positive. It'll happen in due course for those waiting on the panel, I've no doubt

Departments will invariably want to promote the best internal candidates before they lose them to open panels.

They'll look at their current stock, decide how many they'd like to see at the next level, and take a chance on external candidates for the balance of the remaining positions.

VillageIdiot71

Tr1ckieD1ckie wrote: »

It'll happen in due course for those waiting on the panel, I've no doubt

Being positive, is it fair to say that it looks like only 25 of the original 65 people are left.

The panel is meant to last "up to" two years. I think in started in February 2020 - which suggests it could run to February 2022. Plenty of time left.

Grey AP

VillageIdiot71 wrote: »

Being positive, is it fair to say that it looks like only 25 of the original 65 people are left.

The panel is meant to last "up to" two years. I think in started in February 2020 - which suggests it could run to February 2022. Plenty of time left.

Yep, it's not hold your breath time yet.

The general rule is that a PO vacancy should first be offered to the PO mobility scheme (which doesn't really affect a panel as a vacancy is created by the transfer). If a post isn't filled that way, it goes to any existing panels (two appointments from external panels for each internal appointment). A department can continue making internal appointments, but it will owe a debt to the external panel, which must be repaid by external appointments at some stage, at the 2:1 ratio.

Since most depts have been appointing from our panel lately, they may not have a debt or may be in credit, so we should see quite a few internal competitions in the next while. However, as 40 appointments have been made from our panel in ten months, it seems likely that another 25 will be made in the next fourteen months, given the number of vacancies now and coming up.

Whaleseye

Anyone any thoughts as to when things might start moving again on this panel? Are we talking about the new year at this stage now would you think (given there’s internal panel recruitment going on now - assume that’ll take several months to work through)? Can’t get a straight answer from PAS re timelines, though I guess to be fair to them they don’t know..

meteoris

Hi Grey AP.

Thanks for your note.

What do you mean by "given the number of vacancies now and coming up."

Is there any visibility to the current number of vacancies?

Thanks, Meteoris

P.S. Has anybody got any update on progress or lack of?

Conovski

No movement Meteoris, from what I hear. Still around the 40 mark. I think that makes it about 8-10 weeks since there was any change

Irishder

Hi All,
I applied for this originally and just got called for Stage 2.

Actually forgot all about it

ShellyMCD

Any advice for stage 2?

Maybenever

Same as! Can't open the booklet though, link is dead.

SpringColour

Same here!! Really surprised.

I've emailed PAS re the link.