Principal Officer competition 2019

bg007

VillageIdiot71 wrote: »

I'd hate to say anything that would put someone off competing - maybe you would be successful, and a suitable vacancy would emerge. At the same time, I do appreciate that you'd like some idea of the situation.

There are Principal jobs, and even Assistant Secretary jobs, in regional locations. But, indeed, as you go into more senior roles, the number of jobs declines. And if you are tied to one single location, then it will be a relatively small pool of opportunity - and dependent on whether one of a small number of people moves on from a Principal role in a particular year.

What I would say (and other can contradict if they feel otherwise) is that if you are participating in the competition, you'd likely need to be open to taking a vacancy over a broader area than Galway. Between Galway, Mayo, Limerick and Westmeath there might be a big enough pool for some vacancies to come through in the life of the panel, as you have sizeable parts of the Departments of Education, Agriculture, Revenue Commissioners and others across those areas.

But, even then, it will still be much harder to connect to a Principal vacancy that it would to a job in a more junior grade. I know that folk in regional locations have qualified for the panel in the past, and simply found that no suitable vacancy arose in the areas they were interested in.

Hope that's of some use.

Thanks very much for taking the time to write a detailed and very informative reply.

It is lots of use to me, I'll finish out the process and hopefully the whole process will benefit me again should other opportunities arise on public jobs.

Thanks again

Whaleseye

This video may be of interest to anyone due to start as PO - interesting presentation about 42 mins in about what’s expected of a PO.

The presentation from the speaker before that then may be of interest to folks going through the application process still.

Best of luck

https://youtu.be/kpBUWAI6mnQ

Conovski

Hi all
echoing Grey AP's sentiments above, best of luck to all going through the process at the moment, and to those panelists waiting on the email for clearance, it will happen. As the past three months have shown, the positions seem to come in batches. There was no movement for about 10 weeks from September to mid-November, but then there seems to have been seven since. I have been called in this last group and am due to start in a Dept. in January, like Meteoris.

Re. Dublin and regional panels - to add to VillageIdiot71's advice:
in February when the panels were being formed, I got to select two counties in addition to Dublin. I could have opted not to be included on the Dublin panel (an option I did not exercise). Over the past few months as I inquired on the progress of the panels, PAS reported back on where i was on each of the panels - Dublin and each of the two other counties, Louth and Meath in my case). During that time, perhaps three or four positions arose in Louth and Meath, judging by where i was at on each in February and November. Once you take a position you come off all panels. If you decline a position, you come off that panel, but stay on the others. There is no guarantee that your place will be reached on a panel. it is definitely work widening your scope as much as you can to increase your chances of getting a post.

MCQ71

Is it true that for the 2018 Assistant Principal competition there were lots of regional panels that no-one was called from?
I think there’s more APs than POs in most regions cos there a lower grade so does that mean there’s less chances of PO jobs coming up? Unless Departments are filling vacancies themselves? Maybe the POs are older and more of them are retiring?

Grey AP

MCQ71 wrote: »

Is it true that for the 2018 Assistant Principal competition there were lots of regional panels that no-one was called from?
I think there’s more APs than POs in most regions cos there a lower grade so does that mean there’s less chances of PO jobs coming up? Unless Departments are filling vacancies themselves? Maybe the POs are older and more of them are retiring?

There are simply many more AP and PO posts in Dublin than outside Dublin, so the chances of posts becoming vacant are much greater.

Nocrac

Hopefully we will get the results of the video interview next week or do you think it will be later?

Paddy Orwell

Last time it took just under 2 weeks - so they should be out early next week.

Beige Breeze

Does anyone know what the next step is if you get through the interview assessment ie is it an e tray exercise or a presentation ?

Asimov2004

Beige Breeze wrote: »

Does anyone know what the next step is if you get through the interview assessment ie is it an e tray exercise or a presentation ?

Last time it was a two part process with both completed on the same day. One part is a presentation based on information you are given on the day. You have 30 minutes (I think) to consider the paperwork you have been given and to put together a presentation. You then present your findings to a two person board, if I remember correctly your presentation has to be less than 10 minutes and then the interviewers ask questions for another 10 minutes. The second part is a competency based interview based on your application form. This is with a separate three person board. I think that one lasted 30 minutes or there about. Apologies that I'm not accurate with the timings but went through the process in early January so I'm a bit hazy on some of the aspects.
Not sure how they will do these aspects this time, previously they were done in person in Chapter House in Dublin but I'm assuming they will have to be virtual because of Covid. Incidentally, all interviews for internal competitions within my Department have been done virtually so I assume it will be Webex or some other e-platform. Best of luck to everyone still going through the process.

Roscoe69

Got the email and passed.

Reckon I'm low enough on order of merit so many not get called to Stage 3.

Stage 3 due to happen over a number of days in Feb.

Tangtastic

104 here. No idea if that is high enough to be called for next stage??

Xofpod

Tangtastic wrote: »

104 here. No idea if that is high enough to be called for next stage??

Last time around 140 called to final stage and panel of approximately 65 made from that. Roughly a 50% cut seems to be the model so number called probably depends on how big a second panel they want to make. If 50 places, would suggest they'd call 100 to final stage.

Maybenever

Did fairly well in that. Any idea how the scoring works overall? I'm sure I read is somewhere. Does stage 2 count?

1Caroline

Tangtastic wrote: »

104 here. No idea if that is high enough to be called for next stage??

I would expect so and I’m just behind you in the placings. Does anyone know how much notice PAS will give when they call candidates for the next stage?

Bowiegal

Maybenever wrote: »

Did fairly well in that. Any idea how the scoring works overall? I'm sure I read is somewhere. Does stage 2 count?

It’s an even playing field for Stage 3, Stage 2 results don’t count.

froggiegirls

Got my result this morning - number 21

Calculator123

Is there an appeals process?

I did not receive a score as they considered my experience insufficient and so did not review the rest of my answers. Who reviews the videos and determines this?

I'm dumbfounded by this as I have vast experience of leading and building large teams across the world at a senior management level in the private sector. A move to he public sector would involve an enormous pay cut but I was always been inspired by public service and was looking for a change in career.

I cannot get my head around this whole selection process experience. Leaves a very sour taste

hardybuck

Calculator123 wrote: »

Is there an appeals process?

I did not receive a score as they considered my experience insufficient and so did not review the rest of my answers. Who reviews the videos and determines this?

I'm dumbfounded by this as I have vast experience of leading and building large teams across the world at a senior management level in the private sector. A move to he public sector would involve an enormous pay cut but I was always inspired by public service and looking for a change in career.

I cannot get my head around this whole selection process experience. Leaves a very sour taste

If you Google 'PAS Appeals Process' you should see the relevant information there. Unlike the Private Sector PAS are bound to a set of standards which are reviewed by an external regulator - the Commission for Public Sector Appointments.

Irishder

Calculator123 wrote: »

Is there an appeals process?

I did not receive a score as they considered my experience insufficient and so did not review the rest of my answers. Who reviews the videos and determines this?

I'm dumbfounded by this as I have vast experience of leading and building large teams across the world at a senior management level in the private sector. A move to he public sector would involve an enormous pay cut but I was always been inspired by public service and was looking for a change in career.

I cannot get my head around this whole selection process experience. Leaves a very sour taste

Same happened me, bundles of experience but did not pass. What score do you need to get to pass? I got 35

Best of luck to all that got through

Roscoe69

Calculator123 wrote: »

Is there an appeals process?

I did not receive a score as they considered my experience insufficient and so did not review the rest of my answers. Who reviews the videos and determines this?

I'm dumbfounded by this as I have vast experience of leading and building large teams across the world at a senior management level in the private sector. A move to he public sector would involve an enormous pay cut but I was always been inspired by public service and was looking for a change in career.

I cannot get my head around this whole selection process experience. Leaves a very sour taste

That's annoying - I'd be similar to you in terms of private sector background, motivation etc. I don't think I would have passed the interview only I read a post on here about how someone else had done it.

I had the interview response to each question in a Word doc on the screen in front of me, had it timed to exactly three minutes and had it well rehearsed. Essentially, no different from a submission in written form. I would have struggled to get a comprehensive response across otherwise.

Hope you get some joy from the appeals process.

froggiegirls

41 is the pass mark

froggiegirls

ThumbTaxed wrote: »

I am convinced people lie or the people reviewing the videos are just lacking any business sense.

I can't go into any details but there is something certainly wrong.

Wow! That’s quite the allegation

froggiegirls

ThumbTaxed wrote: »

I assume you have managed massive teams. Operating at PO level already?

Yes I have managed significant teams . I’m not currently a Po, I’m an AP higher

ThumbTaxed

froggiegirls wrote: »

Yes I have managed significant teams . I’m not currently a Po, I’m an AP higher

Exactly.

froggiegirls

ThumbTaxed wrote: »

Exactly.

Sorry I’m not sure what point you’re making ?

froggiegirls

ThumbTaxed wrote: »

Below the standard of many applicants but yet rank higher.

Always another reason and we know what it is.

Wow you really are a bitter individual aren’t you. You have no idea of my ‘standard’. If you haven’t come up to the mark that’s on you not me. Maybe if you concentrated on yourself instead of blaming other people you might get a little further in life

MrsBean

Talking to a brick wall OP. A quick jaunt through his post history and he seems transfixed on the idea that women are the reason for his lack of success. Probably saw red when he saw your username has the word 'girls' in it. Seriously.

His point doesn't even make much sense as arguably a person at AP Higher is one of the best placed for a PO position but sure that wouldn't fit his warped sexist conspiracy narrative. Despicable attitude.

froggiegirls

MrsBean wrote: »

Talking to a brick wall OP. A quick jaunt through his post history and he seems transfixed on the idea that women are the reason for his lack of success. Probably saw red when he saw your username has the word 'girls' in it. Seriously.

His point doesn't even make much sense as arguably a person at AP Higher is one of the best placed for a PO position but sure that wouldn't fit his warped sexist conspiracy narrative. Despicable attitude.

Thanks for that mrs bean. I was really taken aback at his comment . He knows nothing about me yet decides that I’ve gotten through not on my ability but because I’m already in the civil service . I have many years of experience at AP and I have gone for PO before and didn’t get it. But I didn’t whinge and blame other people- I gave myself a shake, got my feedback and worked to improve the areas I fell down on. He wouldn’t have a hope in hell of doing well as a PO with his attitude - he’d be lucky to last a few weeks and he certainly wouldn’t get through probation

Conovski

froggiegirls wrote: »

Thanks for that mrs bean. I was really taken aback at his comment . He knows nothing about me yet decides that I’ve gotten through not on my ability but because I’m already in the civil service . I have many years of experience at AP and I have gone for PO before and didn’t get it. But I didn’t whinge and blame other people- I gave myself a shake, got my feedback and worked to improve the areas I fell down on. He wouldn’t have a hope in hell of doing well as a PO with his attitude - he’d be lucky to last a few weeks and he certainly wouldn’t get through probation

Well said. You're spot on

froggiegirls

MrsBean wrote: »

Talking to a brick wall OP. A quick jaunt through his post history and he seems transfixed on the idea that women are the reason for his lack of success. Probably saw red when he saw your username has the word 'girls' in it. Seriously.

His point doesn't even make much sense as arguably a person at AP Higher is one of the best placed for a PO position but sure that wouldn't fit his warped sexist conspiracy narrative. Despicable attitude.

He also wrote another response sayinh that he was essentially discriminated against and it wouldn’t be ok if it was about race 🀷ðŸ»*♀️. He clearly lost his bottle and deleted it but it showed up in my notifications

Asimov2004

Roscoe69 wrote: »

That's annoying - I'd be similar to you in terms of private sector background, motivation etc. I don't think I would have passed the interview only I read a post on here about how someone else had done it.

I had the interview response to each question in a Word doc on the screen in front of me, had it timed to exactly three minutes and had it well rehearsed. Essentially, no different from a submission in written form. I would have struggled to get a comprehensive response across otherwise.

Hope you get some joy from the appeals process.

Roscoe69, I think that was my tip, delighted it worked for you, congrats!

Roscoe69

Asimov2004 wrote: »

Roscoe69, I think that was my tip, delighted it worked for you, congrats!

Thanks!

Not sure how much further I'll get - seems to be low % of private sector applicants that work their way through. If I get the call in February, I'll give it a crack anyway.

Asimov2004

Roscoe69 wrote: »

Thanks!

Not sure how much further I'll get - seems to be low % of private sector applicants that work their way through. If I get the call in February, I'll give it a crack anyway.

Yes that seems to be true, us existing Civil Servants have more experience with the competency based interview as it is what we have been used to for many years now. The important thing to focus on when answering the questions is to clearly demonstrate you understand the role and the key skills you are expected to have under each competency, have a look at the competency descriptors that were included in the information pack or have a search for them on the PAS website. If you can show how your skills align with those competencies and how you could use them in a Civil Service setting that would be a big benefit at the interview. Best of luck with the rest of the process!

MrsBean

Some people also pay for interview prep that is tailored for these civil service positions, particularly at AP and PO level. It can be of particular help for those coming from the private sector into the public service and learning how to approach the competency based interview. I have not used any so can't recommend any in particular but you will find some online. They can be steep enough so not an option for everybody.

Grey AP

Private sector entry is not unusual at AP level but seems to be rarer at PO - however, that may be because there are far fewer posts available at PO level. In my experience, most non-CS PO entrants have at least some wider public service experience. So saying, interviewers consider private sector experience to be just as valuable, as long as examples demonstrate the competencies required.

hardybuck

Grey AP wrote: »

Private sector entry is not unusual at AP level but seems to be rarer at PO - however, that may be because there are far fewer posts available at PO level. In my experience, most non-CS PO entrants have at least some wider public service experience. So saying, interviewers consider private sector experience to be just as valuable, as long as examples demonstrate the competencies required.

To be fair PO is a totally different ballgame to AP also.

Someone coming in as an AP will have to get used to the system, but they'll probably be able to get by without too much interaction with the political side of things for the first couple of years at least. A PO won't get that opportunity in most cases.

AlanPG

On the AP Higher remarks, it is the exact same grade as standard AP in all aspects apart from the pay element.

Some people have a different view but what I've stated is the actual offical view of it.

It arose from an obscure pay agreement in the 90's. The awarding of it is different across the Civil Service - often simply awared to the person longest in the role. Each agency dept has a % of 'higher' allowances they can award. It can be a contentious issue because it often is not clear how its being awarded and it does not require extra responsibilities.

I know of an AP higher and an AP standard that went for the recent PO competition. The AP higher did not make the panel, the AP standard did.

hardybuck

AlanPG wrote: »

On the AP Higher remarks, it is the exact same grade as standard AP in all aspects apart from the pay element.

Some people have a different view but what I've stated is the actual offical view of it.

It arose from an obscure pay agreement in the 90's. The awarding of it is different across the Civil Service - often simply awared to the person longest in the role. Each agency dept has a % of 'higher' allowances they can award. It can be a contentious issue because it often is not clear how its being awarded and it does not require extra responsibilities.

I know of an AP higher and an AP standard that went for the recent PO competition. The AP higher did not make the panel, the AP standard did.

This is the regular old chestnut that pops up periodically.

They're different grades with very similar roles. Officials in the treasury Departments have held higher scales since before the foundation of the State AFAIK.

The 90s pay award probably refers to the higher scales in the line Departments, which brought about a situation where a certain % of staff in line Departments got awarded the higher scale without getting additional responsibilities or taking part in a competitive process. This creates obvious confusion regarding the two grades.

VillageIdiot71

Just to say, got a reply from PAS today that suggests they've reached number 52 for Dublin appointments on the current panel.

I'd guess that's it for 2020, but I suspect that means the existing panel will be finished in early 2021 (so if folk are doing round 3 in February, it would look like the new panel formed will be live pretty much as soon as formed).

Best of luck to all who got through the recent Stage 2 - I'd say it will be well worth putting in the prep for Stage 3.

AlanPG

Hopefully there is a new competition next year. Congrats to all those who made the panel and good luck in the new roles. A very tough competition to get through.

AlanPG

hardybuck wrote: »

This is the regular old chestnut that pops up periodically.

They're different grades with very similar roles. Officials in the treasury Departments have held higher scales since before the foundation of the State AFAIK.

The 90s pay award probably refers to the higher scales in the line Departments, which brought about a situation where a certain % of staff in line Departments got awarded the higher scale without getting additional responsibilities or taking part in a competitive process. This creates obvious confusion regarding the two grades.

I respect your view but disagree and I don't want to derail the thread. For anyone interested, read the PCW agreement (which applies to all standard v higher grades btw) and also the circulars on higher competitions. There are 3 departments in Dubin which I think you are referring to there, its not the case the Higher scales are seen as a 'better' one apart from pay. There is a lot of history to the arrangements and a lot of argument about the application of these. Again don't want to derail - will leave it there. Maybe for a seperate thread.

hardybuck

AlanPG wrote: »

I respect your view but disagree and I don't want to derail the thread. For anyone interested, read the PCW agreement (which applies to all standard v higher grades btw) and also the circulars on higher competitions. There are 3 departments in Dubin which I think you are referring to there, its not the case the Higher scales are seen as a 'better' one apart from pay. There is a lot of history to the arrangements and a lot of argument about the application of these. Again don't want to derail - will leave it there. Maybe for a seperate thread.

Indeed. Perhaps another thread for a PO Higher Competition!

Grey AP

hardybuck wrote: »

To be fair PO is a totally different ballgame to AP also.

Someone coming in as an AP will have to get used to the system, but they'll probably be able to get by without too much interaction with the political side of things for the first couple of years at least. A PO won't get that opportunity in most cases.

Where private sector applicants do seem to have a high strike rate at PO level is for specialist posts, legal, accountancy, clinical, press and communications and so on.

Irishder

Congratulations to all that got through.

I got 35 in question 2 so failed to meet the standard, which is 41.

I sent in an informal appeal as i believe i do have the required management experience.

Does anyone know what the success rate of the appeal process, not holding out much hope.

bluegreenred

Irishder wrote: »

Congratulations to all that got through.

I got 35 in question 2 so failed to meet the standard, which is 41.

I sent in an informal appeal as i believe i do have the required management experience.

Does anyone know what the success rate of the appeal process, not holding out much hope.

I wouldn’t hold my breath but also see the mark for what it is. This is a very structured process and many candidates “fail to demonstrate” skills they already have. I guess it’s a function of having to filter so many candidates. My informal stage 3 appeal led to a standard formal letter affirming the integrity of the assessors. Again, very rigid. I wasn’t questioning this and just wanted them to have another look. So be prepared for similar. It’s a tough process but being through it once seems to stand to you if you go for it again.

Great news for those on the existing panel by the way. Good luck in your new or soon to be new posts. And for anyone moving to stage 3, definitely prepare!

ShellyMCD

Is it possible to prepare for the presentation exercise? Do PAS send out a sample exercise in advance? Thanks

Conovski

Grey AP wrote: »

Where private sector applicants do seem to have a high strike rate at PO level is for specialist posts, legal, accountancy, clinical, press and communications and so on.

https://www.policingauthority.ie/en/about-us/careers-detail/principal-officer-head-of-governance-and-corporate-services
I see this was advertised over the weekend. It seemed at first that the post would have been ripe for taking from the existing PO panel. However, I note accountancy registration is a desirable requirement.

Ravelleman

Irishder wrote: »

Congratulations to all that got through.

I got 35 in question 2 so failed to meet the standard, which is 41.

I sent in an informal appeal as i believe i do have the required management experience.

Does anyone know what the success rate of the appeal process, not holding out much hope.

PAS annual reports give numbers on appeals, if I recall correctly. Successful appeals are very low, which is bad for disappointed candidates but good for the system overall, I suppose.

Conovski

hardybuck wrote: »

This is the regular old chestnut that pops up periodically.

They're different grades with very similar roles. Officials in the treasury Departments have held higher scales since before the foundation of the State AFAIK.

The 90s pay award probably refers to the higher scales in the line Departments, which brought about a situation where a certain % of staff in line Departments got awarded the higher scale without getting additional responsibilities or taking part in a competitive process. This creates obvious confusion regarding the two grades.

AlanPG wrote: »

I respect your view but disagree and I don't want to derail the thread. For anyone interested, read the PCW agreement (which applies to all standard v higher grades btw) and also the circulars on higher competitions. There are 3 departments in Dubin which I think you are referring to there, its not the case the Higher scales are seen as a 'better' one apart from pay. There is a lot of history to the arrangements and a lot of argument about the application of these. Again don't want to derail - will leave it there. Maybe for a seperate thread.

Having worked in the civil service for a number of years now, I have to say the PCW payments/uplifts/higher scales etc are - to me - a relic of an old system which should be done away with.

They were envisaged as a way of enabling the promotion of enhanced efficiency and effectiveness in depts etc by ring-fencing 1% of payroll of a certain grade to additional remuneration for that grade.

The reality is that the unions (and before anyone starts, I am a civil servant, and I am a member of a union, have been all my working life) negotiate with local HR to ensure that these payments are used essentially to give people who have been in situ in a grade longest a permanent uplift to a higher grade (AP to AP higher, HEO to HEO higher etc). Local HR often do not want a headache, and need a simple solution to administer the scheme so they choose those in place the longest as the determining criterion. Those who 'apply' (which in many cases is simply signing a form wishing to be considered for the position) are ranked in order of length of service, and then the goodies are doled out. There is no greater efficiency or effectiveness requirements put in place. It is simply money for old rope. Indeed, I am aware of situations of people on AP higher scales who are totally disincentivised to ever stretch themselves for PO because the responsibility is too great for the (relatively little) additional pay.

Some departments try to split the number of higher positions they have and allocate some by length of service and some by other means. However, if there is a tie in the 'other means' competition, the determining factor is....wait for it.......length of service.

I am aware of one section in one dept. that uses the scheme in a time-bound way. The scheme is used to develop and implement a specific project every 2 years. People apply to be part of the project team. They have to show what they will bring and have to show how their current workload will not be displaced to other colleagues.

There are different ways of doing it.

This is not a popular thing to say in the civil service, but the PCW permanent uplifts should be done away with, at least for senior grades if not for all. They are anathema to a modern day civil service. Senior civil servants are very well paid, all have good pension entitlements (some have very generous ones) and good terms and conditions (APs before 2012 still have flexi!!).

bobbysands81

Grey AP wrote: »

Private sector entry is not unusual at AP level but seems to be rarer at PO - however, that may be because there are far fewer posts available at PO level. In my experience, most non-CS PO entrants have at least some wider public service experience. So saying, interviewers consider private sector experience to be just as valuable, as long as examples demonstrate the competencies required.

Coming it at PO I’d imagine would be insanely difficult.