oughterard people - see OP for Mod warning 29/09/19

Wibbs

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Moving mass amounts of people with significant cultural and world view differences from one place to another in a short space of time never tends to end well for the native population.

and what is often left out of this debate on both sides is that it doesn't go so well for the non native population either. Look across Europe and go to the poorest urban areas and what do you tend to find? A much higher percentage of non native folks and down the generations it doesn't tend to get much better, save for a minority who dig themselves out of that. It's usually the second and third generations that have it the worst. They may have French/British/German/Whatever passports but a fair chunk of them don't feel quite French/British/German/Whatever enough and they're reminded of that often enough too.

Zorya

Wibbs wrote: »

That's an argument in your head? Maybe we should all seek to go to the Horn of Africa and claim our 80,000 year old birthright. Though I wouldn't delve to deeply into that first migration. Every single other human sub species that had been around for many millennia died out in its wake.

There might be something in their post however that signals the roots of the fairly recent acceptance of this 'smash the borders/nation states' type ideology that pathologises all caution re migration - I think (just thinking here, could be way off) that it is part and parcel of a wider deconstructionist form. Moral and cultural relativism seeks to deconstruct the value of all things as they have been, in essentially, I believe, an effort to subvert societies, even civilisation.
Thus national integrity or love for ones own place/roots is deconstructed by the abuse of the phrase racist etc
Just a sex has been deconstructed from any connection with love and is encouraged as some sort of mere sport. Preferably an extreme sport. Gender is being deconstructed. Family, religion, civil institutions - all gradually deconstructed by casual irony and apathy.
Thus one could seek to argue in favour mass migration casually by trotting out the ice age, attempting to diminish all subsequent human history into an ironic irrelevance.

Anyway. Just a passing train of thought.

tayto lover

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Every single person in this country comes from stock who came from somewhere else. There were no people here when the place was covered in ice.

So you’d have no problems with half a million turning up?
Who’d pay for it all? How would they be housed or educated when we have barely enough or maybe not even enough for our own? How much tax would the working man have to pay to cover it?
Flippant answers won’t suffice.

Wibbs

gordongekko wrote: »

So Its ok to have our own leeches draining the system but you are against people who come here hoping to make a better life for themselves is where we need to draw the line?

Our own "leeches" draining the system are a small minority, but even if they weren't how does it make any sense to import the potential for more?

malinheader

gordongekko wrote: »

So Its ok to have our own leeches draining the system but you are against people who come here hoping to make a better life for themselves is where we need to draw the line?

Yes we have our own leeches of course and we should be dealing with this issue. But it seems to me there's alot out there who want to add to the problem with leeches who are not our own.

biko

gordongekko wrote: »

So Its ok to have our own leeches draining the system but you are against people who come here hoping to make a better life for themselves is where we need to draw the line?

I don't think anyone is against qualified immigration, e.g. doctors, engineers, nurses etc.

dxhound2005

The population has increased by 2 million in the last 60 years, one million of that in the last 20 or so. Every single one is a human being. I see that in England some descendants of South Asian immigrants are complaining about the arrival of East Europeans.

Wibbs

Zorya wrote: »

There might be something in their post however that signals the roots of the fairly recent acceptance of this 'smash the borders/nation states' type ideology that pathologises all caution re migration - I think (just thinking here, could be way off) that it is part and parcel of a wider deconstructionist form. Moral and cultural relativism seeks to deconstruct the value of all things as they have been, in essentially, I believe, an effort to subvert societies, even civilisation.
Thus national integrity or love for ones own place/roots is deconstructed by the abuse of the phrase racist etc
Just a sex has been deconstructed from any connection with love and is encouraged as some sort of mere sport. Preferably an extreme sport. Gender is being deconstructed. Family, religion, civil institutions - all gradually deconstructed by casual irony and apathy.
Thus one could seek to argue in favour mass migration casually by trotting out the ice age, attempting to diminish all subsequent human history into an ironic irrelevance.

Anyway. Just a passing train of thought.

The irony is that those coming from cultures that have pride in their cultures, have strong community, have "old fashioned" ideas of family and less relativistic moralities are far more "right wing" compared to the assembled handwringing "liberal" luvvies inviting them in. Any culture throughout history that stopped believing in and being proud of the qualities and strengths of that culture have always fallen to those who didn't.

Wibbs

dxhound2005 wrote: »

The population has increased by 2 million in the last 60 years, one million of that in the last 20 or so. Every single one is a human being.

And? What does that mean? Other than stating the bloody obvious.

tayto lover

dxhound2005 wrote: »

The population has increased by 2 million in the last 60 years, one million of that in the last 20 or so. Every single one is a human being. I see that in England some descendants of South Asian immigrants are complaining about the arrival of East Europeans.

That doesn’t help your argument one bit though. Those S. Asians have the same fears as the Oughterard residents.

xtradel

This can only be a good idea considering the success of the last hotel converted to asylum centre only 12 kms down the road.

dxhound2005

Wibbs wrote: »

And? What does that mean? Other than stating the bloody obvious.

It gives the lie to the contention that the country is full. It could increase by another million over the next couple of decades. More people means more economic activity. If there were only a hundred people living here, the economy would be much smaller.

Wibbs

biko wrote: »

Mugabe won't allow it
"The white man is not indigenous to Africa. Africa is for Africans."

And you know what? In that at least he wasn't too far wrong. If I were African today I'd be viewing the recent Chinese interests as more of the same outside BS and with extreme prejudice.

beejee

I don't know how "all a person wants is a better life" became some kind of virtuous characteristic

Besides that, there seems to be a lot of nebulous "everyone else is lovely" while avoiding anything resembling a specific, while spoken out the other side of the mouth is infinite criticism of Irish people.

Imagine having someone like that in your family working to basically undermine your family, or a work colleague trying to undermine your company, or in your government trying to undermine your country.

Crazy days, and much crazier ahead! So easy to give away what you never worked for, I suppose. Doubly so if you're crazy enough to believe you'll escape the repercussions.

It's all grand, a town here, a village there, all far removed from your reality. But all these towns and villages add up, and they'll get closer and closer and closer, until you'll meet the result of your "give it away" attitude.

Give it away, give it away, give it away now, give it away, give it away, give it away now

Wibbs

dxhound2005 wrote: »

It gives the lie to the contention that the country is full. It could increase by another million over the next couple of decades. More people means more economic activity. If there were only a hundred people living here, the economy would be much smaller.

Ah this more economic activity guff. That's gonna be a hollow argument with more and more automation coming down the pike. Ireland has one advantage there and with environmental sustainability BTW, we do have a lower population density. This is a good thing. We should be looking at fewer people, not more and most certainly not a million or whatever more of non natives.

Wibbs

beejee wrote: »

I don't know how "all a person wants is a better life" became some kind of virtuous characteristic

Besides that, there seems to be a lot of nebulous "everyone else is lovely" while avoiding anything resembling a specific, while spoken out the other side of the mouth is infinite criticism of Irish people.

Imagine having someone like that in your family working to basically undermine your family, or a work colleague trying to undermine your company, or in your government trying to undermine your country.

Crazy days, and much crazier ahead! So easy to give away what you never worked for, I suppose. Doubly so if you're crazy enough to believe you'll escape the repercussions.

It's all grand, a town here, a village there, all far removed from your reality. But all these towns and villages add up, and they'll get closer and closer and closer, until you'll meet the result of your "give it away" attitude.

Give it away, give it away, give it away now, give it away, give it away, give it away now

But, but B, we'll have "diveeeeersity" and better restaurants in Blackrock.

fisgon

As quoted in the papers today...Joe Garrihy, councillor in Lisdoonvarna, where a DP centre for 100 has been open for a while...

"It has been a very positive experience in Lisdoonvarna," he says, "the community have been very welcomed. we have more children attending our schools. There are extra children in our creches. They have joined our GAA clubs and soccer clubs... since they are allowed to work, virtually all adults have worked in our tourist industry."

Before we get fear, panic, the end of the world, and then when it happens, - actually it all works out and is in fact a benefit for a rural area that is suffering depopulation.

Snow Garden

I know Oughterard fairly well and I would have the impression that it's a fairly conservative place for the most part, being on the gateway to Connemara as it is. It's a town that really didn't benefit so much from the false boom of 1996-2007. A lot of businesses struggled or closed even before the recession hit. But in recent years it has actually started to come alive as a village. Some excellent pubs, cafes, shops and restaurants have opened or revamped. The Gateway hotel would always struggle to be a going concern and it is a shame to see it empty and rotting. However putting 200+ asylum seekers in there may not be a good idea for all concerned if it ever happens. The village/town just doesn't appear to have the faciltiies for such a sudden influx of foreigners. Then again it would provide good job opportunities and increased spending. Maybe it would work ok but I doubt the locals will allow it somehow. I would recommend extra security at the Gateway hotel site.

One thing is for sure, Noel Grealish will have no problem whatsoever getting elected if he runs again in 2020.

Portsalon

fisgon wrote: »

Before we get fear, panic, the end of the world, and then when it happens, - actually it all works out and is in fact a benefit for a rural area that is suffering depopulation.

And is Oughterard a rural area that is suffering from depopulation?

Because if not, then you're comparing slugs with greyhounds.

vriesmays

fisgon wrote: »

Before we get fear, panic, the end of the world, and then when it happens, - actually it all works out and is in fact a benefit for a rural area that is suffering depopulation.

There are no jobs or colleges in these towns hence the depopulation. What are these immigrants going to do there.

dxhound2005

Sometimes like in Kiltyclogher and Bawnboy, it is just a need for new people. Those environments would be as alien to a Tallaght person as they would to a Syrian, but they would integrate through time.

Wibbs

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Those environments would be as alien to a Tallaght person as they would to a Syrian

Eh... no, no they wouldn't be.

Plumbthedepths

gordongekko wrote: »

So Its ok to have our own leeches draining the system but you are against people who come here hoping to make a better life for themselves is where we need to draw the line?

I have no problem with anyone coming here to better themselves, once I'm not expected to fund their lifestyles from my taxes, as you said we have our own indigenous spongers already to contend with

Jimmy Garlic

dxhound2005 wrote: »

It gives the lie to the contention that the country is full. It could increase by another million over the next couple of decades. More people means more economic activity. If there were only a hundred people living here, the economy would be much smaller.

On the one hand delusional do gooders and huckster politicians tell us we are producing too much Co2 and on the other they tell us we need to accept a million more people in a very short period of time. This countries infrastructure is at breaking point already, healthcare, housing, transport, the works. You thinking that a million more people could be easily accommodated speaks volumes about your total detachment from reality, you are away in la la land.

OneEightSeven

dxhound2005 wrote: »

If you go for a night out, or go to buy your paper in the morning, you will likely be served by non nationals. And your taxi driver could well be an immigrant. Those are the sorts of skills shortages being filled, because there are not enough Irish people to do those jobs. It is a repeat of what Irish people did when they emigrated in the past to much wealthier countries.

Do people still fall of this "need immigrants to do the jobs the Irish won't" shíte nowadays? Those immigrants didn't get their jobs due to a labour shortage, they're employed due to their low wage demands. There's no such thing as "needing immigrants to do the jobs the Irish won't", it's just propaganda pushed by wealthy businessmen and their political lackeys to flood countries with cheap immigrant labour.

Irish people will won't any job if the pay. A labour shortage is actually good for wage growth because it forces companies to increase their salaries to attract workers. The Brexit referendum is proof of this as the recent rise in wages in the UK has been attributed to a labour shortage. Likewise in Eastern European countries, wages are growing faster there compared to Western Europe due to a labour shortage.

dxhound2005

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

On the one hand delusional do gooders and huckster politicians tell us we are producing too much Co2 and on the other they tell us we need to accept a million more people in a very short period of time. This countries infrastructure is at breaking point already, healthcare, housing, transport, the works. You thinking that a million more people could be easily accommodated speaks volumes about your total detachment from reality, you are away in la la land.

I've lived through the times when the population increased, and in general things are better now than in the 1960's or 1980's. With more people going to university, I would be disappointed if the expertise is not there to manage further expansion.

In the longer term I agree that when the world burns up, the people alive then will be worse off.

Wibbs

fisgon wrote: »

As quoted in the papers today...Joe Garrihy, councillor in Lisdoonvarna, where a DP centre for 100 has been open for a while...

"It has been a very positive experience in Lisdoonvarna," he says, "the community have been very welcomed. we have more children attending our schools. There are extra children in our creches. They have joined our GAA clubs and soccer clubs... since they are allowed to work, virtually all adults have worked in our tourist industry."

Before we get fear, panic, the end of the world, and then when it happens, - actually it all works out and is in fact a benefit for a rural area that is suffering depopulation.

Ah yes, Lisdoonvarna. Is this the same Lisdoonvarna where the locals overwhelmingly voted against the move of such numbers? The same Lisdoonvarna where said locals were given assurances by the authorities and the owner of the hotel that their wishes would be respected? The same Lisdoonvarna where the locals wishes were utterly ignored? Never mind that the hotel owner received 1.24 million euro for his trouble. The same Marcus White who was charged and convicted for employing fourteen non native migrant workers without work permits. That Lisdoonvarna?

So yeah, pardon me if I am wary of believing a damned thing to come out of the mouth of a FG councillor shilling his party line of bullsh1te.

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I've lived through the times when the population increased, and in general things are better now than in the 1960's or 1980's. With more people going to university, I would be disappointed if the expertise is not there to manage further expansion.

In the longer term I agree that when the world burns up, the people alive then will be worse off.

It's at times quite scary to read how bloody naive and ill informed some people appear to be. Quite scary.

Zorya

Recently I have been charged with sifting CVs for work in Ireland that is not on the critical list but that has limited available skilled people. I have read CVs from fantastic people from all over the world that would blow your hair back - tremendously qualified people, and experienced, and enthusiastic. Kurdish people. Egyptians. Autralians. South Africans. Middle Eastern people. People from the Ukraine. I've been told to whittle out the non EEA people however because of the crazy hoops re Immigration and Work permits. And yet a boyo with nothing in particular to offer from Albania or Nigeria can rock in and claim ''asylum'' - asylum from what? - no bother. Makes no sense.

dxhound2005

I see that in England essential workers (farmhands) have stopped coming from EU member states in Eastern Europe. Frightened away by the anti immigration brigade. So the government has made special rules to allow them to be replaced by Russians and Ukranians. Essentially giving them the same freedom of movement as exists for EU workers. You couldn't make it up.

malinheader

fisgon wrote: »

As quoted in the papers today...Joe Garrihy, councillor in Lisdoonvarna, where a DP centre for 100 has been open for a while...

"It has been a very positive experience in Lisdoonvarna," he says, "the community have been very welcomed. we have more children attending our schools. There are extra children in our creches. They have joined our GAA clubs and soccer clubs... since they are allowed to work, virtually all adults have worked in our tourist industry."

Before we get fear, panic, the end of the world, and then when it happens, - actually it all works out and is in fact a benefit for a rural area that is suffering depopulation.

Rte should contact this Joe Garrihy, sounds like just the person that they like to interview. Benefit for rural areas suffering depopulation ,don't make me laugh, WHY are these areas suffering depopulation , I think we all know why. What are these people going to do in these depopulated rural areas.
DP centres are cash cows for foreign companies.