oughterard people - see OP for Mod warning 29/09/19

fisgon

There's a huge bang of Brexit and Trump off many posts on this thread. What I mean specifically about this is...

- opinion passed off as fact (multiculturalism is a disaster, asylum seekers are all fakes)
- wild generalisations and ill-informed comment contrary to fact (asylum seekers are criminals)
- a falling back to tribalism and fear of the other - as if we were still in the stone age,
- wild conspiracy theories that have no basis in fact (George Soros is sponsoring a project to wipe out white people)
- The fear of immigrants is inversely proportional to how close you live to immigrants (The highest Brexit vote was in areas in Britain that had a small number of immigrants - cities that actually had a lot of immigrants voted Remain)

Wibbs

fisgon wrote: »

I see no examples here of problems caused by asylum seekers.

You're ok with an entire community being kept in the dark about future plans? You're ok with an entire community being lied to about said future plans when they did find out? You're ok with an entire community being offered up for political and financial advantage for a few, including one who was charged and convicted of illegally employing(and you can be sure it wasn't because they were expensive..)? You're ok with an entire community voting overwhelmingly against the imposition of this centre from above being ignored and again lied to? You've an interesting angle on what you consider "problems", or lack of them. Community democracy being trampled on seems fine to you. Now I may have your measure Sir.

beejee

fisgon wrote: »

I see no examples here of problems caused by asylum seekers.

I'm not being facetious here, but I suspect a very significant reason for choosing tiny places is that you won't hear diddly squat about them.

Put them in Blackrock, do you think you'd hear about that?

I'm assuming that the government agencies specifically target places with next to no political and media representation.

Even forgetting that, who are you relying on for awareness on politically "senstive" issues, rte? Ha!

fisgon

fisgon wrote: »

I see no examples here of problems caused by asylum seekers.

My concerns are based mostly around the problems the UK has faced.

100,000 cases of FGM in the UK alone, 1,400 girls abused in Rotherham alone.

I don't see the need to import either problem into Ireland, and I don't see that we would be well placed to prevent it seeing the abuse the Church got away with here for so long.

4068ac1elhodqr

fisgon wrote: »

- opinion passed off as fact (multiculturalism is a disaster, asylum seekers are all fakes)
- wild generalisations and ill-informed comment contrary to fact (asylum seekers are criminals)

Multiculturism isn't the same as (illegal) economic migration.
Skilled (legal) (normal) migration is the best thing since sliced bread.

Fact is anyone making a (false) asylum application is acting somewhat with criminal intent, for economic gain. They are also taking the place of the genuine cases in-need.

Thus that is the fact, and thus your wayward comments are ill-informed.
As for your 'token desperate add-in' of 'trump/soros' : really? (Lol & Eyeroll).

beejee

fisgon wrote: »

There's a huge bang of Brexit and Trump off many posts on this thread. What I mean specifically about this is...

- opinion passed off as fact (multiculturalism is a disaster, asylum seekers are all fakes)
- wild generalisations and ill-informed comment contrary to fact (asylum seekers are criminals)
- a falling back to tribalism and fear of the other - as if we were still in the stone age,
- wild conspiracy theories that have no basis in fact (George Soros is sponsoring a project to wipe out white people)
- The fear of immigrants is inversely proportional to how close you live to immigrants (The highest Brexit vote was in areas in Britain that had a small number of immigrants - cities that actually had a lot of immigrants voted Remain)

- opinion passed off as fact (multiculturalism is a disaster, asylum seekers are all fakes)

It has a woeful record everywhere you care to look, including history. It is simply logical to draw conclusion from existing evidence, and simply illogical to do the opposite

- wild generalisations and ill-informed comment contrary to fact (asylum seekers are criminals)

I can't argue again such vague generalisations. But neither can you claim the opposite to be a "fact"

- a falling back to tribalism and fear of the other - as if we were still in the stone age,

Never going to change. Ever. The day you treat your own child equally as that of a stranger is the day tribalism is at an end.

- wild conspiracy theories that have no basis in fact (George Soros is sponsoring a project to wipe out white people)

Very ropey guy who should indeed be under ever scrutiny. But no need to jump to genocidal conclusions either.

- The fear of immigrants is inversely proportional to how close you live to immigrants (The highest Brexit vote was in areas in Britain that had a small number of immigrants - cities that actually had a lot of immigrants voted Remain

Immigrants with the right to vote will vastly vote for immigration. No surprise at all. So yes, it makes logical sense that areas of majority indigenous population will vote for themselves

beejee

[Deleted User] wrote: »

My concerns are based mostly around the problems the UK has faced.

100,000 cases of FGM in the UK alone, 1,400 girls abused in Rotherham alone.

I don't see the need to import either problem into Ireland, and I don't see that we would be well placed to prevent it seeing the abuse the Church got away with here for so long.

Here's the big picture: countries of high immigration/mixed groups of people are collapsing. The United States and UK are the poster children for where this is headed.

And I doubt we've seen a fraction of how bad these internal divisions will become as groups basically fight for control of the country.

Germany is on its way, Italy, plenty of examples across Africa right now etc

Who would want to emulate that?

the dark phantom

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Wow, with that attitude, I'm sure you will be offering your spare room as accommodation??

Funny thing is its Irish folk that cause all the trouble in my area, The immigrants and their children tend to mind their own business and avoid the poisonous gossip and drunken activities that a majority of our own partake in here daily. Even funnier is its angry women that are behind most of the **** here. :eek: I wouldn't have a soft spot for Roma's though, they contribute nothing.

Spanish Eyes

Lawson Ambitious Condo wrote: »

Multiculturism isn't the same as (illegal) economic migration.
Skilled (legal) (normal) migration is the best thing since sliced bread.

Fact is anyone making a (false) asylum application is acting somewhat with criminal intent, for economic gain. They are also taking the place of the genuine cases in-need.

Thus that is the fact, and thus your wayward comments are ill-informed.
As for your 'token desperate add-in' of 'trump/soros' : really? (Lol & Eyeroll).

I wonder how many of the "rejected status" are actually deported.

If they are not, well there we are, more come in knowing their chances of being turfed out are minimal. Word gets around much quicker these days.

I bet it is very difficult (and possibly very expensive) for legitimate visa applicants with skills to enter, but bogus entrants seem to have no problems and live off the taxpayer for years. Honestly, can no one see this?

LillySV

rossie1977 wrote: »

Long term dole rate was €203 in 2009, it's €203 right now.

FG are a right wing neoliberal party. They aren't in the business of rewarding the bottom 90%...



There is a million more people living in the country now compared to 2002 and identical unemployment rate.

How about all the extra payments ... child dependent rates, fuel allowance , other various allowances etc... goin up and up

Wibbs

fisgon wrote: »

There's a huge bang of Brexit and Trump off many posts on this thread.

That's a frankly banal argument. The refuge of a man without much of one to start with. At least when it strays from their acceptable politic and the easy rhetoric of pulling the racism card. Oh BTW I think Trump is a fcukwit. Actually I think most US presidents of the last while have been. Some just painted prettier pictures of themselves. Brexit was and remains beyond idiotic a position and the state of their current "government" is farcical and not a little criminal. Hmm, I don't seem to fit into your comfortable ickle boxes...

What I mean specifically about this is...

- opinion passed off as fact (multiculturalism is a disaster, asylum seekers are all fakes)
- wild generalisations and ill-informed comment contrary to fact (asylum seekers are criminals)
- a falling back to tribalism and fear of the other - as if we were still in the stone age,
- wild conspiracy theories that have no basis in fact (George Soros is sponsoring a project to wipe out white people)
- The fear of immigrants is inversely proportional to how close you live to immigrants (The highest Brexit vote was in areas in Britain that had a small number of immigrants - cities that actually had a lot of immigrants voted Remain)

Multiculturalism brings extra social problems for both the local and non local populations. This is an undeniable if uncomfortable fact. The evidence for that is to be found in every single European nation with any size of a non indigenous population. Never mind the "locals"; ask a fourth generation Black or Muslim guy in Germany, or France or wherever, how truly German, French he feels. This is the problem with many in the Multiculturalism camp, they can be just as blinkered and just as colour sensitive as the Right wingers and just as likely to ignore facts that don't agree with their dug in second hand opinions.

Oh and if you don't think the world is chock full of "stone age" thinking you must not go out in it very much or look beyond the blinkers very often. It is the very story of this world and humanity and remains so. Don't let an ever so thin layer of "civilisation" and civility fool you. Attacking the "other" is never more than a few missing meals away.

It doesn't even need that. All it can take is frustration at your groups losses. Look to our neighbour. Those first generation of folks from the subcontinent and the Caribbean soldiered on in the UK often against suspicion, even dog's abuse from the locals and raised their families. Then their kids and grandkids feeling that they'd been sold a pup, even though they were born and bred in "multicultural Britain" simmered with understandable and frankly dead right frustration that often kicked off in anger and we had quite the number of examples of civil disobedience, crime and even outright rioting because of it. How many White little Englanders are involved in stabbing sprees, or acid attacks? And quite frankly I don't want that repeated and avoidable mistake writ across Europe for this country. Though I fear we have already sowed the seeds of it.

Arghus

What's the solution then? Just build a wall or something?

Danzy

Arghus wrote: »

What's the solution then? Just build a wall or something?

Cry out "Solidarity", call the local proles fascist and go for lunch and liquid afters.

Arghus

Arghus wrote: »

What's the solution then? Just build a wall or something?

Massive wealth/knowledge transfer to poorer nations. Cancel debts, stabilise their legal, tax and economic systems. Invest in their education systems. Basically repeat what happened in Ireland in other countries. We forget EU membership had a big impact on our legal system re women's and minority rights.

Initially educated people will still want to leave these countries, like Ireland in the 80's but eventually they'll have a comparable standard of living and no need to emigrate. Improve the rights of women in their societies so they are free to chose the life they want (no FGM, child marriage etc).

We have a moral duty to help anyone less fortunate than ourselves, we just need to find a way to do it.

Importing problems isn't any sort of solution.

Wibbs

Arghus wrote: »

What's the solution then? Just build a wall or something?

Only let needed and valuable to society folks in who have jobs lined up. Students no issue and no issue with them remaining if again the above criteria are met. Actual refugees, from actual warzones no problem and concentrating on families not single men under 50, and in numbers proportional to the country and individual areas of the country. Not dropping a hundred plus into a community of three hundred odd. Full engagement with communities who have to host these folks and any problems on all sides after the hotelier or business owner's fat government cheque clears and the TD's pension is secure. Any criminality means immediate deportation and I don't care how many years they've been here either.

beejee

Arghus wrote: »

What's the solution then? Just build a wall or something?

I know a reasonable amount about Japan, and they seem to get along fine without the microscope of immigration, nor s it ever suggested that it should house asylum seekers to remotely near the extent of other countries. Japanese don't seem to fret over it either.

I would assume it's an internal problem. Japanese people view a place as japanese because it's full of Japanese people. A simple definition, that doesn't warrant even questioning for a Japanese person. No need for walls. The sky is blue.

For some Irish people, "ireland" is simply a name, an arbitrary place that is defined by nothing more than an administrative exercise, nothing to do with Irish people because anyone can be Irish with a bit of paper. This outlook causes internal chaos, and the chaos increases as more and more non-indigenous people join the mix. The sky is most certainly not blue, nothing is clear and confusion is afoot. USA and UK say hello.

That's the "solution" and "problem" exemplified in my view.

jackboy

Deleted User wrote: »

Massive wealth/knowledge transfer to poorer nations. Cancel debts, stabilise their legal, tax and economic systems. Invest in their education systems. Basically repeat what happened in Ireland in other countries. We forget EU membership had a big impact on our legal system re women's and minority rights.

Good stuff in theory but most of those countries would reject such assistance. The ruling elite in these places depend on poverty and depravation for their existence.

Arghus

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Massive wealth/knowledge transfer to poorer nations. Cancel debts, stabilise their legal, tax and economic systems. Invest in their education systems. Basically repeat what happened in Ireland in other countries. We forget EU membership had a big impact on our legal system re women's and minority rights.

Initially educated people will still want to leave these countries, like Ireland in the 80's but eventually they'll have a comparable standard of living and no need to emigrate. Improve the rights of women in their societies so they are free to chose the life they want (no FGM, child marriage etc).

We have a moral duty to help anyone less fortunate than ourselves, we just need to find a way to do it.

Importing problems isn't any sort of solution.

All very good ideas.

Can they be achieved easily and quickly?

Arghus

beejee wrote: »

I know a reasonable amount about Japan, and they seem to get along fine without the microscope of immigration, nor s it ever suggested that it should house asylum seekers to remotely near the extent of other countries. Japanese don't seem to fret over it either.

I would assume it's an internal problem. Japanese people view a place as japanese because it's full of Japanese people. A simple definition, that doesn't warrant even questioning for a Japanese person. No need for walls. The sky is blue.

For some Irish people, "ireland" is simply a name, an arbitrary place that is defined by nothing more than an administrative exercise, nothing to do with Irish people because anyone can be Irish with a bit of paper. This outlook causes internal chaos, and the chaos increases as more and more non-indigenous people join the mix. The sky is most certainly not blue, nothing is clear and confusion is afoot. USA and UK say hello.

That's the "solution" and "problem" exemplified in my view.

Has it not been predicted that Japan will eventually face a demographic crisis, due to an aging population, low birth rates etc, etc?

Arghus

Arghus wrote: »

All very good ideas.

Can they be achieved easily and quickly?

Course not, but it's still the right thing to do.

Dumping people in the west of Ireland is a bad idea, well, dumping people anywhere is a bad idea.

One thing we need to focus on is education levels. It is going to be increasingly hard to get (and stay) employed without skills.

beejee

Arghus wrote: »

Has it not been predicted that Japan will eventually face a demographic crisis, due to an aging population, low birth rates etc, etc?

So be it. Natural equilibrium is not something to fight, but accommodate.

Inviting in more people to look after more people will eventually require more people to look after more people!

It's a fools game to play, and a game that will inevitably be lost.

Wibbs

beejee wrote: »

I know a reasonable amount about Japan, and they seem to get along fine without the microscope of immigration, nor s it ever suggested that it should house asylum seekers to remotely near the extent of other countries. Japanese don't seem to fret over it either.

I would assume it's an internal problem. Japanese people view a place as japanese because it's full of Japanese people. A simple definition, that doesn't warrant even questioning for a Japanese person. No need for walls. The sky is blue.

For some Irish people, "ireland" is simply a name, an arbitrary place that is defined by nothing more than an administrative exercise, nothing to do with Irish people because anyone can be Irish with a bit of paper. This outlook causes internal chaos, and the chaos increases as more and more non-indigenous people join the mix. The sky is most certainly not blue, nothing is clear and confusion is afoot. USA and UK say hello.

That's the "solution" and "problem" exemplified in my view.

Yup, that would nail a lot of it for me. Now lord knows the Japanese culture has give rise to utter utter scumbags and cultural scumbaggery in the past when it came to the "other". Evil inhuman bastards at times frankly. However one leaf the west might take from their book - and one we wrote and read ourselves not too long ago - was a deep pride in our cultures and deeply hard fought cultures with it. And we have much to be proud of. Well, how many Europeans are climbing on boats to cross to the Middle East or Africa? None. We are the promised land and that is something to be proud of and something to defend.

4068ac1elhodqr

Arghus wrote: »

Has it not been predicted that Japan will eventually face a demographic crisis, due to an aging population, low birth rates etc, etc?

Won't be an issue, Japan already has 'Pepper' a 4-foot humanoid robot deployed across many of it's banks, hotels, fast service restaurants, and even in health-care settings.

The next 10yrs will be the turning point, building a robot to replace a low-mid skilled worker is easy enough, once it gains self-learning capability and advanced AI to avail of acceptable levels of emotiional inteligence more jobs will be lost.

Just ask the current 5th Fav for POTUS20, who is running his campaign mainly upon UBI, due to the emerging 4th Industrial Reveloution (automation) which will wipe out the need for millions of human resources.

Arghus

beejee wrote: »

So be it. Natural equilibrium is not something to fight, but accommodate.

Inviting in more people to look after more people will eventually require more people to look after more people!

It's a fools game to play, and a game that will inevitably be lost.

Natural equilibrium is something to put above all other things, even if, in the long run, that potentially leads to increased hardship? Even if - in the case of somewhere like Japan - a sober analysis and perhaps reappraisal of their attitude and policies towards migration may be eventually beneficial to the long-term sustainability of their state.

It sounds like a cop out to extol the values of "natural equilibrium".That line of logic can be applied to anything - why do anything in that case if natural equilibrium should be allowed to run its course?

Arghus

Lawson Ambitious Condo wrote: »

Won't be an issue, Japan already has 'Pepper' a 4-foot humanoid robot deployed across many of it's banks, hotels, fast service restaurants, and even in health-care settings.

The next 10yrs will be the turning point, building a robot to replace a low-mid skilled worker is easy enough, once it gains self-learning capability and advanced AI to avail of acceptable levels of emotiional inteligence more jobs will be lost.

Just ask the current 5th Fav for POTUS20, who is running his campaign mainly upon UBI, due to the emerging 4th Industrial Reveloution (automation) which will wipe out the need for millions of human resources.

It should be an interesting time politically and socially when the need millions for human resources are wiped out. Human resources who can vote and effect policy. I wonder will it all work so smoothly.

beejee

Arghus wrote: »

Natural equilibrium is something to put above all other things, even if, in the long run, that potentially leads to increased hardship? Even if - in the case of somewhere like Japan - a sober analysis and perhaps reappraisal of their attitude and policies towards migration may be eventually beneficial to the long-term sustainability of their state.

It sounds like a cop out to extol the values of "natural equilibrium".That line of logic can be applied to anything - why do anything in that case if natural equilibrium should be allowed to run its course?

It's not a case of" not doing anything", it's a case of not doing "that" thing. As said above, propping up a failing system with the very thing that's causing it to fail - more people- is doomed. There's only one result.

Akin to giving a junkie even more heroine so as he feels temporarily better. It will only accelerate the inevitable conclusion.

People are going to have to swallow the bitter pill of giving up luxury/heroin if there's to be any hope of achieving a steady, normal state of existence.

Its that simple.

The pyramid scheme off simultaneously...
1) allowing the overpopulated parts of the planet to continue uninterrupted, without repercussions while...
2) propping up a failing system elsewhere, where populations have already steadied off.

It's a double whammy of fudge-headed short sighted "planning"

Bullocks

I just passed through oughterard there and they are outside protesting for the night. I think they are planning on 24hr protest for awhile

beejee

Or another way to put it.. We will most certainly achieve another kind of equilibrium if we maintain the course. That is to say, every part of the planet will be a toxic dumping ground that's as poor as dirt.

Pick your poison.

Arghus

beejee wrote: »

It's not a case of" not doing anything", it's a case of not doing "that" thing. As said above, propping up a failing system with the very thing that's causing it to fail - more people- is doomed. There's only one result.

Akin to giving a junkie even more heroine so as he feels temporarily better. It will only accelerate the inevitable conclusion.

People are going to have to swallow the bitter pill of giving up luxury/heroin if there's to be any hope of achieving a steady, normal state of existence.

Its that simple.

The pyramid scheme off simultaneously...
1) allowing the overpopulated parts of the planet to continue uninterrupted, without repercussions while...
2) propping up a failing system elsewhere, where populations have already steadied off.

It's a double whammy of fudge-headed short sighted "planning"

The system - if we're still talking about the example of Japan here - isn't failing because there's too many people. It's failing because there isn't enough.

There's a burden on the financial capability of the state because an aging population doesn't work as much, requires more heathcare and the demographics are out of whack, so the younger, fitter population whose taxes etc, etc would traditionally be used to provide the means to look after the older share of the population aren't there in enough numbers to make that model sustainable in the long term.

4068ac1elhodqr

Arghus wrote: »

It should be an interesting time politically and socially when the need millions for human resources are wiped out. Human resources who can vote and effect policy. I wonder will it all work so smoothly.
I have my doubts about whether the ever increasing financial demands of ballooning heathcare and welfare budgets in aging states will be met through the efforts of robots. How cheap are these robots going to be and who will pay for them?

It certainly will be dramatic when it all kicks off, early to mid-2030's will see millions (of even moderately skilled) thrown on the scrapheap.

Make no mistake when a (24/7) robot makes fiscal sense on a corp's P&L account or EOY Balance Sheet, that's it game over for Joe & Jane within that corp when the make they investment decision.

No one takes their horse out to plough a field anymore, and even Amazon warehouses today have robots moving about and able to avoid humans that 'get in the way' of their non-stop work ethic.

The only way it can all be paid for (UBI) is wealth distribution, but ask the average billionaire to pay more tax, and they'll head off around the Med in a Superyacht on the back of their staff's pension fund instead.