oughterard people - see OP for Mod warning 29/09/19

alastair

Wibbs wrote: »

Translation: You can't.

Indeed. "Greater stakeholders" and "that’s always going to be true", eh? By your own "argument" you've just gone and proven my point about the innate problem with your multiculturalism ideal. It isn't one, beyond an admittedly admirable hope that somehow this time it'll be different. If it is, we'll be one of the biggest outliers in human history, ancient and modern. No, but multicultural specific crimes go up. Hell, we wouldn't even have this very thread and debate if it didn't bring extra issues to a society. That's before we look at the many decades of extra social issues multiculturalism brings. Again, yes we have social issues and crime here already, so why import more and different ones?

Jaysus you're still beating that Lambeg Halal drum of SA and NI? Simple question: Does multiculturalism bring extra social issues for both the locals and the newcomers? Yes or No? In multicultural societies who are more likely to be socially excluded, the locals or the newcomers? How good is Ireland's record on ethnic minorities of the same "race" and skin colour?

Oh it's all nonsense when you struggle to field a cogent rebuttal and it would be all so easy to go to xenophobia or its bedfellow in your arsenal racism, but again my questions stand.

Apparently he can.

“Multicultural Crimes” ��

It’s so easy to go to xenophobia, because that’s precisely what you’re shilling. Maybe you’re in denial, but it’s pretty obvious to others. In a multicultural society the ‘locals’ are just as likely to be indistinguishable from the ‘newcomers’.

ToBeFrank123

alastair wrote: »

Wibbling wonder wrote: »

Alastair - can you validate that no one in the Oughterard area objected when the proposal for the 150 or so houses was announced?

The proposal is only that, it hasn't even begun the formal planning process and unlike the DP centre people have the opportunity to submit objections and have those considered. Today it is a field and nothing more, if people wish to exercise their democratic right to object they can do so within the process.

More recently a plan to develop 13 houses in Oughterard by the council was rejected primarily due to concerns that it would adversely affect the SPA but I believe lack of access to infrastructure/services was also a consideration.

http://www.pleanala.ie/documents/directions/304/S304339.pdf

So 13 houses approximately closer or at worst the same to the village centre than the Gateway is rejected but it's okay to develop a hotel to cater for approx 250 people?

The hotel successfully got planning permission years ago. It’s already been developed.

It is no longer a hotel.

Its a derelict building with a proposal to turn it into a DPC whose residents will depend strongly on local services. It stopped being a hotel years ago.

ToBeFrank123

alastair wrote: »

Wibbs wrote: »

Translation: You can't.

Indeed. "Greater stakeholders" and "that’s always going to be true", eh? By your own "argument" you've just gone and proven my point about the innate problem with your multiculturalism ideal. It isn't one, beyond an admittedly admirable hope that somehow this time it'll be different. If it is, we'll be one of the biggest outliers in human history, ancient and modern. No, but multicultural specific crimes go up. Hell, we wouldn't even have this very thread and debate if it didn't bring extra issues to a society. That's before we look at the many decades of extra social issues multiculturalism brings. Again, yes we have social issues and crime here already, so why import more and different ones?

Jaysus you're still beating that Lambeg Halal drum of SA and NI? Simple question: Does multiculturalism bring extra social issues for both the locals and the newcomers? Yes or No? In multicultural societies who are more likely to be socially excluded, the locals or the newcomers? How good is Ireland's record on ethnic minorities of the same "race" and skin colour?

Oh it's all nonsense when you struggle to field a cogent rebuttal and it would be all so easy to go to xenophobia or its bedfellow in your arsenal racism, but again my questions stand.

Apparently he can.

“Multicultural Crimes” ��

It’s so easy to go to xenophobia, because that’s precisely what you’re shilling. Maybe you’re in denial, but it’s pretty obvious to others. In a multicultural society the ‘locals’ are just as likely to be indistinguishable from the ‘newcomers’.

This has got nothing to do with Xenophobia. You are blinded by your desire to label everyone racist. Its bottom of the barrel stuff from you.

One of the proresters in Oughterard said she worked with homeless non nationals and even put someup in her own home. And she was against this DPC.

Seathrun66

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Loving the moving of the Goals Posts again.

No hate, why would I. Life is too short. But people are entitled to ask question on the DP center and also this attack. Nobody safety should be put on hold to help nut jobs like them

The default argument of someone with an inability to address a point.

And one lunchtime violent offence does not constitute a crime rampage. And does not make for an African criminal gang that a poster here (but no one else) claims knowledge of.

Seathrun66

enricoh wrote: »

Seeing as ye are all back posting boggles, Alistair and sethrun would ya kindly tackle this post from wibbs, ye must have missed it first time round. n let us know how ireland will have a different outcome, thanks in advance folks

A post on the poverty of ethnic minorities in the UK has what relevance to refugees here?

Seathrun66

enricoh wrote: »

Of course you skipped over it, you couldn't disprove one point!
And the black African and pakistani stats have sod all to do asylum seekers in ireland i suppose?!

Yep, thanks for confirming that.

Seathrun66

Wibbs wrote: »

Nope, you skipped over it because you can't answer it. Not with a straight face anyway. It is a demonstrable fact and one that you can glean from whatever "acceptable" site or source you like that ethnic minorities, with the general exceptions of East Asians, within their new countries even after many generations are more likely to be suffering poverty and social exclusion compared to the background White population. In some minorities far more likely. A trend that is repeated throughout the EU and even beyond. The UK is a little different as it's usually those of African origin that suffer more at the bottom.

And no, the occasional success stories from such origins is neither an explanation nor a recommendation for multiculturalism, because, and this is the point, they do so in spite of their background and skin colour. As I pointed out previously just because a Black man Barack Obama became president of the US, hardly proves African Americans are on the pigs back. They most certainly are not. Seathrun66's earlier contention that this is a sign of multiculturalism working is beyond daft, naive, deflective, or all of the above.

Clearly you didn't read it as Afro Caribbean folks are but one of the demographic groups this applies to. But you keep avoiding the facts. I'd be shocked at this stage if you didn't.


[Cue Seathrun's patented Spellchecker 2000 in 3...2...1...]



PS: Who or what is gemma? No doubt it's some attempt at a some sort of a slight, which seems to be a large part of your debating "skills".

You posited that the children of Pakistani immigrants would never feel part of the UK nor be listened to in tokenistic political posts. I gave you three examples of second Generation British-Pakistanis in three of the most powerful positions in that land. You had no answer.

Multiculturalism worked for them. And it's working here. Your diatribes ain't going to stop it.

enricoh

Seathrun66 wrote: »

Yep, thanks for confirming that.

Good god, so 50% of black africans and 60% of pakistanis live in low income households in the uk and that has nothing to do with ireland? Paddy will get more productive n less spongery ones i suppose!

Boggles

Wibbs wrote: »

Nope, you skipped over it because you can't answer it.

I know Wibbs, The governance of Britain steadfastly laid out a level playing fill for all citizens of former colonies and beyond. They did their bit.

Oh hang on.

We are talking about governance who at best routinely demonized large sections of their own nice white people and at worst openly machined gunned them in the streets.

Listen lad you are so far embedded in your own narrative now you can't possibly turn around, it's futile trying to answer any of your questions, primarily because you are asking the wrong questions and any answers that don't lead to fordiners = bad you would not entertain.

So why would I waste my time (again)?

I don't even think you believe your own rantings and ravings at this stage.

Wibbs

Seathrun66 wrote: »

You posited that the children of Pakistani immigrants would never feel part of the UK nor be listened to in tokenistic political posts. I gave you three examples of second Generation British-Pakistanis in three of the most powerful positions in that land. You had no answer.

Multiculturalism worked for them. And it's working here. Your diatribes ain't going to stop it.

Pity you didn't add bold tags to the bit before And no, the occasional success stories from such origins is neither an explanation nor a recommendation for multiculturalism, because, and this is the point, they do so in spite of their background and skin colour.

Boggles wrote: »

I know Wibbs, The governance of Britain steadfastly laid out a level playing fill for all citizens of former colonies and beyond. They did their bit.

Oh hang on.

We are talking about governance who at best routinely demonized large sections of their own nice white people and at worst openly machined gunned them in the streets.

OK, pick any Western nation you like with notable populations of non indigenous ethnic minorities.

Listen lad you are so far embedded in your own narrative now you can't possibly turn around,

Why hello Mr Pot, may I introduce you to kettle?

it's futile trying to answer any of your questions, primarily because you are asking the wrong questions and any answers that don't lead to fordiners = bad you would not entertain.

Deflection again. Oh and no point did I, nor would I say "fordiners = bad", I have been saying that muliticulturalism as practised by western nations over the last century brings as many, arguably more negatives and social ills as positives, which seem to be nebulous or at least little beyond "diversity". Not least for the immigrant populations themselves.

Again and try without deflection and running to petty slings, simple questions: Does multiculturalism bring extra social issues for both the locals and the newcomers? Yes or No? In multicultural societies who are more likely to be socially excluded, the locals or the newcomers? How good is Ireland's existing record on ethnic minorities of the same "race" and skin colour?

These are perfectly valid questions and easy answers should be forthcoming if your "narrative" had nearly as much weight of evidence behind it as you think. They only appear to be "wrong questions" because you refuse to answer them, or know the answers back my position up more than yours.

alastair wrote: »

It’s so easy to go to xenophobia, because that’s precisely what you’re shilling. Maybe you’re in denial, but it’s pretty obvious to others.

Conjecture and appeal to the audience, but like your chums avoiding the points and questions like the very plague. It's so easy to rant about racism isn't it, in the hope of shutting down any further debate on the matter? It seems it's not so easy to answer simple questions.

In a multicultural society the ‘locals’ are just as likely to be indistinguishable from the ‘newcomers’.

In what universe? :pac: If they are so "indistinguishable" then how come one can with some confidence match ethnic backgrounds with levels of poverty, crime and social exclusion? In France, Spain, Italy, Germany, Sweden, Holland, whichever country you like, which demographic is most likely to be at the top of those above stats? The "locals"? That would be a no then. Take Ireland if you like. Look to our own indigenous ethnic demographic, who are indistinguishable from the locals, they are locals and get back to me on that.

Boggles

Yawn. To summarize.

Treating sections of the populace differently (utter contempt) leads to social problems and as we are too keenly aware sometimes far beyond.

It's pretty simple. No ranting and raving required or 15 pages of back and forth required. Or God help us more Wiki links.

ToBeFrank123

Boggles wrote: »

Yawn. To summarize.

Treating sections of the populace differently (utter contempt) leads to social problems and as we are too keenly aware sometimes far beyond.

It's pretty simple. No ranting and raving required or 15 pages of back and forth required. Or God help us more Wiki links.

Absolutely agree. Which is why throwing 250 people into an open prison in the middle of nowhere is a bad idea. The people of Oughterard equally have been treated with contempt.

So we agree on something at last.

Boggles

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Absolutely agree. Which is why throwing 250 people into an open prison in the middle of nowhere is a bad idea. The people of Oughterard equally have been treated with contempt.

You think Oughterard is the middle of nowhere?

Now who is spreading contempt lad?

Patrick2010

Boggles wrote: »

You think Oughterard is the middle of nowhere?

Now who is spreading contempt lad?

Why do you constantly refer to people as son or lad? Comes across as patronizing

topper75

alastair wrote: »

It’s all nonsense that aims to make excuses for simple xenophobia.

Accusing a tourist town of xenophobia!

ToBeFrank123

Boggles wrote: »

You think Oughterard is the middle of nowhere?

Now who is spreading contempt lad?

Not me lad.

realitykeeper

Doblin wrote: »

The people from oughterard who are complaining about getting a direct provision center are coming across very bad,

No I don`t think they are. There are certain things we in the western hemisphere are doing which are creating problems not just in the western hemisphere but in other parts of the world, which result in migration. And, when migration happens, we take a bad situation and make it worse.

The causative factors in the western hemisphere are the minimum wage and the lack of a pay cap for high earners. Also the monitory easing policies of central banks in the US and EU in particular.

These policies destabilize regimes elsewhere because our purchasing power pushes up costs of goods around the world and makes trade more difficult for countries that have currencies that would not withstand the same level of monitory manipulation as the EU and US. Our high pay is also a magnet for migrants. Sadly for them and us, none of this is sustainable because western currencies must crash sooner or later.

Another downside of high pay is that it does not make sense economically to do a lot of things that would otherwise be commercially viable so things like some agricultural jobs, manual waste sorting/recycling, some hand crafts cannot happen without a black market in labour and why would anyone who is legally here work on the black market, only migrants do that. In the case of hand crafts, these things tend to be imported (rather than produced on the black market) and our own cottages industries in craft are nearly extinct. This needlessly makes us more reliant on imports for such products.

So high pay deprives us of opportunity and this destroys communities and accelerates depopulation in rural areas - not just in Ireland but in Spain, the USA, Australia and many other countries in the western hemisphere.

By working on the black market, migrants are discriminated against. They are exploited and this causes resentment and under privilege. As in any society, the poor procreate faster than the wealthy so we are facilitating our own replacement but please do not misunderstand, I am not blaming the migrants for that. Like I say, I blame our high minimum wage, the lack of a pay cap, easy monitory policy, our growing debt and the dole.

The_Kew_Tour

Seathrun66 wrote: »

The default argument of someone with an inability to address a point.

And one lunchtime violent offence does not constitute a crime rampage. And does not make for an African criminal gang that a poster here (but no one else) claims knowledge of.

You addressed a point that was not on my point in the first place. We leave it at that as its clear you cant answer points in question without going off on one

Happyilylost

Seathrun66 wrote: »

The default argument of someone with an inability to address a point.

And one lunchtime violent offence does not constitute a crime rampage. And does not make for an African criminal gang that a poster here (but no one else) claims knowledge of.

Again. From the source provided.

African. Check.
Criminal. Check.
Gang. Check.

That is how it is describe in the article provided. Your only answer is that they are not a gang because you say so. Well like you said yourself I don't take anecdotal evidence as fact. You have provided nothing to counter the facts in the article only your own opinion. I'll stick with the description An garda Siochana used in the article unless you can provide some source outside of your own opinion as to why I shouldn't?

Bullocks

I went past the old hotel an hour ago. There was a good sized crowd of protestors considering its a miserable wet Tuesday morning. By the looks of things they are going nowhere.
Still no builders back to work on it and the entrance is blocked with stone

WB Yokes

Bullocks wrote: »

I went past the old hotel an hour ago. There was a good sized crowd of protestors considering its a miserable wet Tuesday morning. By the looks of things they are going nowhere.
Still no builders back to work on it and the entrance is blocked with stone

Did they have yellow vests on

Chinasea

WB Yokes wrote: »

Did they have yellow vests on

And or large white gowns.

WB Yokes

Chinasea wrote: »

And or large white gowns.

Youd probably believe that and all that's the worrying thing.

Wibbs

Boggles wrote: »

Yawn.

Blistering repartee. Cicero would be taking notes no doubt.

Treating sections of the populace differently (utter contempt) leads to social problems and as we are too keenly aware sometimes far beyond.

Yes and it seems having ethnic minorities makes this easier to do. This is human nature repeated everywhere you look throughout recorded history and recent European history with it. And again you want to import this nonsense to Ireland, a country like any that has its own problems, but didn't have the problems of multiculturalism on top, but you think this time it will be different and human nature will radically change across the board. Hope springs eternal in every human breast.

It's pretty simple. No ranting and raving required or 15 pages of back and forth required. Or God help us more Wiki links.

I'm not among those tying themselves in knots avoiding direct questions. I'm not among those notably scant with links and sources. I'm not the one repeatedly responding by posting variations on the theme of "this is ****e", nor pettily scanning for spelling errors in lieu of argument.

At this point you and your chums postings are like some odd game of debate Russian roulette, you're spinning the cylinder hoping for a live round but all we hear at this stage is the click of an empty chamber.

jmayo

alastair wrote: »

The hotel successfully got planning permission years ago. It’s already been developed.

So a hotel that is setup with planning for short term occupancy is the same as a DPC that has fulltime occupants.

You never worked in planning then.

And yes we know how a politician changed the criteria, all because they knew damn well they would never getting planning, anywhere.

Seathrun66 wrote: »

You posited that the children of Pakistani immigrants would never feel part of the UK nor be listened to in tokenistic political posts. I gave you three examples of second Generation British-Pakistanis in three of the most powerful positions in that land. You had no answer.

Multiculturalism worked for them. And it's working here. Your diatribes ain't going to stop it.

I think you will find the number of children of Pakistani immigrants serving time in prison for child grooming is way more that those that have reached positions of power within the state.

Would that be considered by you as a measure of failure of multiculturalism ?


I suppose they thougth mutliculturalism worked for them as it give them carte blanche to rape and abuse young girls all without state interference. :rolleyes:

Patrick2010 wrote: »

Why do you constantly refer to people as son or lad? Comes across as patronizing

Condescension in the hope that it draws someone into a slagging match and hence a reprimand.

AFAIK that poster is or was based in a newly created state in Eastern Europe.
That would lead me to believe they are either NGO, or state/UN sponsored.
One of the insiders.

Boggles

Wibbs wrote: »

And again you want to import this nonsense to Ireland

Time to breathe into that paper bag again Wibbs.

I signed up to no international treaties or agreements.

You have the wrong guy, fella.

Boggles

jmayo wrote: »

AFAIK that poster is or was based in a newly created state in Eastern Europe.
That would lead me to believe they are either NGO, or state/UN sponsored.
One of the insiders.

Are you actually okay, or are you role-playing or something?

Boggles

Lisdoonvarna Population: 829.

Lisdoonvarna, in Co Clare, is about 18 months ahead of Oughterard. And all who speak to The Irish Times this week say the town is calmer than it was.

A direct-provision centre was first mooted here, to open in the then closed King Thomond Hotel, in January 2018. As in Oughterard, locals learned about the plan through rumour and word of mouth. When a vote was taken at a public meeting in the town in February 2018, on whether the people would accept a reception centre, the result was 197 against and 15 in favour. But the hotel subsequently opened to women and children seeking asylum.

Some of the asylum seekers, who have been in Ireland more than nine months, have been able to take up employment locally. The two schools – St Enda’s National School and Mary Immaculate Secondary School – have taken in about 40 new pupils between them. Although both principals have decided not to give media interviews, people say the children have had a “wonderful” impact. The schools have been allocated additional resources, including extra staff, and a community creche has also seen additional investment.

Has there been any trouble since the centre opened? Christy, an elderly man, says: “Not at all. Sure they are up there and they keep to themselves. You see them coming into town for shopping, and if it’s a wet morning you’d give them a lift, the same as anyone else. The only thing you’d say is there is very little provision made for them, very little facilities for play for children.”

Being an asylum seeker is a very tough, terrifying and precarious position to be in. There is a huge reliance on voluntary groups to smooth the edges of that
Peggy, who is in her 60s, and sitting outside her shop in the sun, says she was worried when she first heard of the plans. “We’re just a small population. They said it wouldn’t go ahead if too many objected. Everyone objected, and it still went ahead. It did cause division.

“Has it turned out okay? I’d say so. We thought they would be around the streets, but you wouldn’t see much of them. There are droves of the children, but they’re all right.”

The new residents seem reasonably happy, although several refer to how small Lisdoonvarna is and how little it has for the children, especially during school holidays.

Smoyo, who is from Zimbabwe, has been in the King Thomond since March 2018, with her two children. She suffered depression at first. The people were “so welcoming”, she says, but she found the isolated location difficult. She has since got work housekeeping at a hotel and hopes to study information technology.

The centre itself, unlike many visited by The Irish Times, is in good condition: bright, clean and well maintained. The manager on duty, who does not want to be named, is in good spirits and seems proud of the centre, showing a huge television it has just bought for a planned Friday cinema club for the children.

She urges visitors to join residents for the evening meal, which looks and smells appetising. Coffee, tea and biscuits are going all day in the lobby, and volunteers from Lisdoonvarna Links are in helping children with homework.

Orla Ní Éilí, manager of Clare Immigrant Support Centre, says this kind of voluntary community work is vital to making life in direct provision bearable. But it is also “pot luck” whether it’s in the community.

The immigrant support centre provides free legal and practical advice on the asylum process, entitlements, education, housing and supports to asylum seekers in the county.

“Being an asylum seeker is a very tough, terrifying and precarious position to be in. There is a huge reliance on voluntary groups to smooth the edges of that. In most towns there are good people who will stand up and set up the support organisations, but there is no reason to assume those agencies will be there.

“The mostly voluntary work in ensuring the residents are supported in making progress in their lives is constant. The people of Lisdoonvarna have been very lucky with the fantastic work and support that has come from the school principals, the education and training board and Lisdoonvarna Links.”

Not ideal, there are negatives, but in the majority positives.

eagle eye

Oughterard doesn't have any school spaces available, no police station(you can hit a buzzer and be put through to Galway Garda station), there is no footpath out to the proposed dpc either. Just a few problems, I'm sure there are many others.

Gatling

eagle eye wrote: »

Oughterard doesn't have any school spaces available, no police station(you can hit a buzzer and be put through to Galway Garda station), there is no footpath out to the proposed dpc either. Just a few problems, I'm sure there are many others.

But the schools get extra resources and financial grants of course they love it .

Feck everyone else .

The asylum process here is a total mess no more should be taken in until they sort out and get rid of the sham applicants,
The right to work should be stopped too it just another oh look they have a part time job let them stay here excuse