Female Fury - Watch out!

El_Duderino 09

Petroleum Guzleum wrote: »

Why do feminists claim that gender equality is their goal? Are you denying this is often stated as a goal of feminism?

Another classic El Duderino Tactic: make a false assumption about another poster. When did I claim that I'm looking for feminism to fix any problems?

Genuine question here, do you struggle with reading comprehension?

I have no problem with feminists wanting to address women's issues, but when they deceive people that their actions are in the name of "gender equality", as if they are being altruistic, I will correctly call bullsh1t. They should be honest about their true goals and agenda.

Gender equality might well be their goal. I don’t go to the meetings so I don’t know exactly what they say. But I know in reality they tend to focus on women’s issues. I’ve no problem with that. Do you have a problem with that? I wouldn’t expect a men’s rights group to spend much time on women’s issues even though their ultimate goal might be equality.

You complained that feminism doesn’t do enough for men’s rights in the justice system.

Like I said, you can dine out on the realisation that feminism focuses on women’s issues forever on boards.ie. That the start and end of the discussion and unfortunately that’s as close a step most of these men ever come to caring about men’s issues.

Edit: I just noticed you’re my personal rereg troll. You just can’t quit me

El_Duderino 09

B0jangles wrote: »

Yeah, any lobby group which seeks to change a status quo which is comfortable for some tends to get demonized and mocked - e.g. 'feminazis', and 'fat pink haired loons who can't get a man and are also hairy and ugly'.

Or look at what is said about 'Black Lives Matter' activists - they are regularly called Black Supremacists and terrorists. For fighting for black americans to receive equal treatment by the law/law enforcement.

Or as just mentioned - gay rights activists were and still sometimes are dismissed as perverts who just want to Destroy Society/ Destroy Marriage/ Destroy The Family.

It goes with the territory -anyone who expects to get nothing but support and admiration for trying to change society is in for a very rude awakening.

The people fighting for women’s rights were not just opposed on gender equality grounds. They were called Bolshevists because it was topical at he time. They were accused of trying to destroy society, destroy the family.

Men’s rights groups would undoubtedly face similar sentiment. In modern terms it would be more like alt right and similar. But that’s just the nature of opposing the status quo. Other groups faced the opposition and fought for what they wanted to achieve. It’s up to men to decide whether to do the same or be put off by the fact that they would have to fight for what they want.

El_Duderino 09

Petroleum Guzleum wrote: »

I didn't complain that feminism doesn't do enough. I made a logical inference that if gender equality were truly the goal of feminism then equal judicial treatment would be a top priority.

That is not complaining. That is reasoning and exposing duplicity.

Feminists can focus on women issues if they want, I don't object to that. People can focus on whatever they want. But if they try to deceive people about their true goals it's only reasonable that they should be exposed for their duplicity.

If gender equality truly were their goal equal judicial treatment would be a top priority, it clearly isn't.

Ok. You’ve made the point that feminisms focus on women’s issues while having equality as a goal. And I’ve agreed that’s obviously the case. So what next? Say it again as if you’ve just discovered it afresh, I suppose?

El_Duderino 09

Petroleum Guzleum wrote: »

So long as feminists are being deceitful continue to raise awareness of that deceipt.

Ah. Whinging about feminism. Kinda exactly what I said to begin with.

jjmcclure

I'm not worried about female fury..... Some words from Bull Mick


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DW9CVwoQbnQ

El_Duderino 09

Petroleum Guzleum wrote: »

You're obsessed with that word whinging. Did someone tell you you were whinging in your youth, did it create an emotional wound?

Calmly highlighting deceipt is not whinging, it's raising awareness. It's important for society that we highlight those who are trying deceive society.

Your next rereg should be Sigmund Freud.

Ok. So you could calmly highlight the problem you see with a movement you’d disagree with anyway. Then what? Do it again as if it’s novel? Meanwhile, the dreaded feminists are moving along doing their thing and men’s issues have to make do with scraps from the feminists’ activism.

Don’t misunderstand me, I’m not accusing you of caring about men’s issues. But I do care about them so I’m always disappointed that so many people are so satisfied by saying “feminism focuses on women’s issues, but it has equality as a goal. So there, take that feminism”. As if it matters.

Mad_maxx

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Any kind of lobby group which attaches itself to a men's rights banner is at best mocked or else labelled as being part of this alleged " far right" monster in our midst.

Oh right. So what you’re saying is that they would face opposition. The feminists or the gays were lucky they got exactly what they wanted without having to face opposition and fight for it.

Obviously every lobby group faces opposition. That’s not a reason not to do it. If they want to spend their time whinging about women and feminism then they would easily be painted as bad actors. If they focus on men’s issues, it would be easy to stay on message.

The level and type of opposition would depend on what the message is.

Quite false, any men who have protested about institutional inequalities have been shot down, their protests also has zero sympathy in media circles.

Feminism desires revenge for past perceived injustices, it's firmly part of the broader progressive left movement

Mad_maxx

B0jangles wrote: »

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Any kind of lobby group which attaches itself to a men's rights banner is at best mocked or else labelled as being part of this alleged " far right" monster in our midst.

Yeah, any lobby group which seeks to change a status quo which is comfortable for some tends to get demonized and mocked - e.g. 'feminazis', and 'fat pink haired loons who can't get a man and are also hairy and ugly'.

Or look at what is said about 'Black Lives Matter' activists - they are regularly called Black Supremacists and terrorists. For fighting for black americans to receive equal treatment by the law/law enforcement.

Or as just mentioned - gay rights activists were and still sometimes are dismissed as perverts who just want to Destroy Society/ Destroy Marriage/ Destroy The Family.

It goes with the territory -anyone who expects to get nothing but support and admiration for trying to change society is in for a very rude awakening.

All of the above have the media firmly in their corner

Reviews and Books Galore

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Oh wow, you’ve rumpled the feminists. They’re more concerned by women’s issues than men’s issues. You can dine out on that stunning realisation for ever on these threads. Have you seriously been expecting feminism to fix your problem? I doubt it.

I’d say a men’s rights group or a judicial reform group would be the best way to redress the disadvantage men experience in judicially system. I wouldn’t expect feminism to achieve it. They have other priorities, as you’ve already said.

So what’s the solution? Chat ad nausium about how dreadful feminism is and how isn’t doing enough for men?

It's not that it is not doing enough for men, but it is actually damaging men's rights and women's rights also as they are often linked together.



Sure, look at the media depiction of male sexuality and how often it is portrayed as bestial and out of control. Do you really think that that is in anyway healthy for a woman's personal feelings of safety?

El_Duderino 09

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Quite false, any men who have protested about institutional inequalities have been shot down, their protests also has zero sympathy in media circles.

Feminism desires revenge for past perceived injustices, it's firmly part of the broader progressive left movement

Ah, that’s nice and neat. Any point in men doing anything to address men’s issues then?

There would definitely be opposition. No doubt about it.

Do you seriously think movements like women’s rights and gay rights didn’t face opposition? Do you think the media were supportive of them when they started? Be honest.

Mad_maxx

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Quite false, any men who have protested about institutional inequalities have been shot down, their protests also has zero sympathy in media circles.

Feminism desires revenge for past perceived injustices, it's firmly part of the broader progressive left movement

Ah, that’s nice and neat. Any point in men doing anything to address men’s issues then?

Do you seriously think movements like women’s rights and gay rights didn’t face opposition? Do you think the media were supportive of them when they started? Be honest.

The media are leftists so yes

Being racist against white men is now seen as a laudable position, journalists cheerfully trot out the " pale, male and stale" slogan

The department of education is planning to roll out a new curriculum which teaches boys that they are intrinsically disordered

El_Duderino 09

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

It's not that it is not doing enough for men, but it is actually damaging men's rights and women's rights also as they are often linked together.



Sure, look at the media depiction of male sexuality and how often it is portrayed as bestial and out of control. Do you really think that that is in anyway healthy for a woman's personal feelings of safety?

I don’t think negative portrayals of groups are good. But I also don’t think “the feminists” are actually a group. “The feminists” campaign for greater parental rights for fathers. That’s something which suits both men and women. I don’t suppose you give “the feminists” great credit for that. But when someone writes an article that’s not complementary of men, it’s a classic example of “the feminists” at it again.

Do you take great pride whenever there’s a positive portrayals of a man in media? All the Male heroes in media, men saving the day. Or do you just take exception to non Male heroes and non complementary portrayals of men?

Reviews and Books Galore

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I don’t think negative portrayals of groups are good. But I also don’t think “the feminists” are actually a group. “The feminists” campaign for greater parental rights for fathers. That’s something which suits both men and women. I don’t suppose you give “the feminists” great credit for that. But when someone writes an article that’s not complementary of men, it’s a classic example of “the feminists” at it again.

Do you take great pride whenever there’s a positive portrayals of a man in media? All the Male heroes in media, men saving the day. Or do you just take exception to non Male heroes and non complementary portrayals of men?

What's your opinion on the matter?

El_Duderino 09

Mad_maxx wrote: »

The media are leftists so yes

Being racist against white men is now seen as a laudable position, journalists cheerfully trot out the " pale, male and stale" slogan

The department of education is planning to roll out a new curriculum which teaches boys that they are intrinsically disordered

Ah just to be clear I asked whether you think the women and gay rights people were opposed by the media. Are you seriously saying you think they were not opposed by the media and the media supported them?

I mean, you’re wrong but, that might explain your view.

El_Duderino 09

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

What's your opinion on the matter?

Ok. You didn’t acknowledge anything in their post you quotes.

But I’ll tell you what I think. On what aspect exactly?

Jmsg

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

The people fighting for women’s rights were not just opposed on gender equality grounds. They were called Bolshevists because it was topical at he time. They were accused of trying to destroy society, destroy the family.

They have already achieved the destruction of society and the family. "Men's rights activists" are trying to sort out the ruins instead of trying to reverse the damage (which admittedly is a tall order unless one possesses a time machine and a few dozen one way tickets to Israel for the figureheads)

Jmsg

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ah just to be clear I asked whether you think the women and gay rights people were opposed by the media. Are you seriously saying you think they were not opposed by the media and the media supported them?

Yes those with power at the time 100% supported these subversive movements.

El_Duderino 09

Jmsg wrote: »

Yes those with power at the time 100% supported these subversive movements.

It’s hard to tell if you’re being serious. If that’s what you think hen you’re wrong.

It would be useful for you to look up how movements work. How difficult it was for groups such as the one so mentioned, to get their movements off the ground. If the media and were already supportive of their message, they wouldn’t need to activate aim the first place. The media would already be doing it for them.

Are other posters in agreement with this poster? What level of reality are we working on?

Silentcorner

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It’s hard to tell if you’re being serious. If that’s what you think hen you’re wrong.

It would be useful for you to look up how movements work. How difficult it was for groups such as the one so mentioned, to get their movements off the ground. If the media and were already supportive of their message, they wouldn’t need to activate aim the first place. The media would already be doing it for them.

Are other posters in agreement with this poster? What level of reality are we working on?

Jesus, you really attach yourself to your ideology I'll give you that, being a proud feminist is obviously important to you.

Feminism has gone mainstream, it is very much a current hot topic/ideology, it is everywhere, work, media....it's a modern day hysteria movement, in fact, there is a sizeable amount of women who were previously considered feminists who are the biggest critics of this wave of feminism.

As a consequence, just like any other ideology that is receiving as much attention as this, be it Catholicism, Scientology, Flat Earth movements people have a right to critically analyse the pillars of that ideology which is why you will see this idealogy mentioned more often than any other idoelogy, it is being rammed down our throats....the problem with Feminism, it doesn't require a huge amount of analysis to expose the nonsense it is based on.

Men and Women are not the same.
The Gender Pay Gap has been debunked time and time again.
There is no Rape Culture.
Domestic Abuse is as big a problem for men as it is for women.
Women are not being oppressed in any way shape or form, in this part of the world.
Feminism is not concerned with equality between the genders, it's concern is the female gender full stop.

You are bonkers if you think people do not have a will to articulate a counter narrative to what we are witnessing in media!

MrAbyss

Women who are Borderline (BPD) often portray themselves as fierce and independent women when they are severely mentally ill individuals who have psychotic episodes relating to real or perceived abandonment. These are the women who tend to make false rape allegations and destroy men's lives when a relationship ends, and they they do things like accuse him of molesting the kids. Run smear campaigns against him all over social media.

These BPD women are then 'reinforced' and 'supported' by other women who think the man is always evil and women never lie. Psych professionals often refuse to treat BPD women as they will can make false accusations against the medical professional if she feels he is not supporting her in her smear campaign and false allegation rampages against innocent men. The #metoo movement was filled with these women.

I have seen a few men's lives destroyed by such women. Including one suicide. All based on lies and wild hysterical revenge rampages based on nothing. This major issue is never addressed in the media ever.

El_Duderino 09

Silentcorner wrote: »

Jesus, you really attach yourself to your ideology I'll give you that, being a proud feminist is obviously important to you.

Feminism has gone mainstream, [...]

You are bonkers if you think people do not have a will to articulate a counter narrative to what we are witnessing in media!

It seems pretty important to you anyway. You mentioned it in every post to me.

Feminism has gone mainstream. And you quoted a post where I replied to someone who thinks feminism was always supported by the media. How bonkers is that? And it matters because they’re talking down the idea of activating for men’s issues because the media isn’t speakeasy in their favour. Mad isn’t it?

Of course people are free to criticise. I didn’t say otherwise. I asked ‘what next?’ and the a response was more of the same. Round and round, whinging. Obviously they’re free to whinge.

Earthhorse

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

And other issues like smoking, wearing seatbelts, using condoms and STI awareness, racial abuse, homophobia. The list of things which have been successfully overcome through campaigns centred around education is pretty long.

I appreciate you have around seven people to respond to but it’s worth examining this in a bit more depth.

Smoking

Smoking was banned from sponsoring major sporting events back in the day. It has also been taxed out the wazoo for a long time. We then banned it from public transport. Then any work environment. We banned it from advertising altogether. There are also lots of restrictions regarding showing smoking in comics, TV and films. There’s a whole industry around quitting the damn things.

If we’ve made progress on it it seems unlikely education is to thank or people wouldn’t be taking it up in the first place.

Wearing seatbelts

Another one where eventually we decided to mandate the behaviour through legislation.

Using condoms and STI awareness

Probably your best example but a bit different to anti social behaviour in that people have a self interest in learning about it i.e. avoiding unwanted pregnancies and protecting their health. Still a lot of it about mind.

Racial abuse

Tricky one, this. Up until fairly recently Ireland was hardly multicultural at all. So we’ve little baseline to go by. If you want to take somewhere like the States racial tensions are currently at an all time high since the civil rights movement. And if you want to talk about the success of that movement it was a result of huge campaigning as well as weird political good fortune (JFK's untimely death giving LBJ a mandate).

Homophobia

Again, a tricky one. We have marriage rights for some sex couples now. But hardly because of education. The influence of the church has all but vanished from Irish political life largely thanks to the scandals besetting the Catholic Church and their awful handling of same. The LBGT community put in huge efforts to bring change about too. But homophobia is hardly a thing of the past.

So things can definitely change for the better but to credit education seems far wide of the mark in most instances. Economic, cultural and political forces have a greater say.

Bear in mind there are many areas where we are losing ground too. We now live in an age where denying the efficacy of vaccines has led to the reemergence of old diseases as a threat again.

Education can play a part but it’s somewhat limited and it just gets trotted out as an easy answer to everything because people don’t want to face up to the difficult task of trying to reduce anti social behaviour.

Silentcorner

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It seems pretty important to you anyway. You mentioned it in every post to me.

Feminism has gone mainstream. And you quoted a post where I replied to someone who thinks feminism was always supported by the media. How bonkers is that? And it matters because they’re talking down the idea of activating for men’s issues because the media isn’t speakeasy in their favour. Mad isn’t it?

Of course people are free to criticise. I didn’t say otherwise. I asked ‘what next?’ and the a response was more of the same. Round and round, whinging. Obviously they’re free to whinge.

I was reading through the posts on this thread over the last 24 hours, and, what stood out was your passion for feminism, simple as that.

You do identify as a feminist, feminism is an ideology, feminism has gone mainstream, just because people will criticize the ideology doesn't make them "whingers"...you never have any meaningful rebuttal, feminists never do, then again, the ideology is so one dimensional, how do you rebut the blinding obvious.

As for what next, well hopefully more and more people will see through the flawed pillars of feminism and we can move on from this pointlessly divisive public discourse!

El_Duderino 09

Silentcorner wrote: »

I was reading through the posts on this thread over the last 24 hours, and, what stood out was your passion for feminism, simple as that.

You do identify as a feminist, feminism is an ideology, feminism has gone mainstream, just because people will criticize the ideology doesn't make them "whingers"...you never have any meaningful rebuttal, feminists never do, then again, the ideology is so one dimensional, how do you rebut the blinding obvious.

As for what next, well hopefully more and more people will see through the flawed pillars of feminism and we can move on from this pointlessly divisive public discourse!

You’re obsessed with me and feminism. I was wondering what your next point would be. But it the same points on loop. And that’s my point isn’t it?

We’ve agreed that people are free to criticise any idea. So you repeat it as if you’re introducing something novel.

We’ve agreed that feminism is mainstream too. So you repeat it as if you’re introducing something novel.

Silentcorner

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You’re obsessed with me and feminism. I was wondering what your next point would be. But it the same points on loop. And that’s my point isn’t it?

We’ve agreed that people are free to criticise any idea. So you repeat it as if you’re introducing something novel.

We’ve agreed that feminism is mainstream too. So you repeat it as if you’re introducing something novel.

Go back to page 10 of this thread, count how many times you have defended feminism in one form or other and tell me who is obsessed.

You have hitched your identity to a movement/ideology that you will have to defend more and more as time passes and more and more people start to see through the misrepresentations, inaccurate and deceitful narratives that seek to divide...the movement, at least this wave of it, is infantile, as the following article in The New York Times ( https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/17/style/women-poop-at-work.html ) reflects, this kind of garbage is all over media every day, this terrible victimhood culture poisoning minds of people who should know better...I don't think you can accuse men who criticize feminism as the "whingers".

Unless, of course, you think men are "poop-shaming" women!

El_Duderino 09

Silentcorner wrote: »

Go back to page 10 of this thread, count how many times you have defended feminism in one form or other and tell me who is obsessed.

You have hitched your identity to a movement/ideology that you will have to defend more and more as time passes and more and more people start to see through the misrepresentations, inaccurate and deceitful narratives that seek to divide...the movement, at least this wave of it, is infantile, as the following article in The New York Times ( https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/17/style/women-poop-at-work.html ) reflects, this kind of garbage is all over media every day, this terrible victimhood culture poisoning minds of people who should know better...I don't think you can accuse men who criticize feminism as the "whingers".

Unless, of course, you think men are "poop-shaming" women!

I think you probably missed all the times that I advocate for men’s issues in one form or another. Go back and have a look for that. But your obsession with me and one aspect of what I think, is interesting. Particularly interesting since you ignore anything I say that doesn’t fit your preconception.

Anyway tire fee to obsess over me but I have other priorities. I actually care about both men’s and women’s issues. I know I’ve lost a lot of the big brave anti feminism bucks by mentioning men’s issues. All they want to do is say, yet again, “I disagree with feminism because blah blah blah”. Rinse an deepest.

Id love to see that energy our into men’s issues. It’s almost time for international men’s day. The day which these same big brave anti feminism bucks will spend giving out that men’s day isn’t as big as the women’s equivalent. They’ll ignore all the issues IMD raises and focus solely on women’s day and feminism. It’s an annual occurrence on boards. Golden opportunity to promote men’s issues and they’ll staff it up the wall for a chance to have a pop at feminists.

I don’t have to agree with everything they do to admire feminists’ effectiveness at publicising issues. I’d love if men’s issues got that kind of publicity. But the people who you’d think would support those issues are all busy in a circle jerk and telling each other they’ve found a flaw in feminism because feminists focus on women’s issues but they have equality as a goal. Gotcha! Splat.

Silentcorner

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I think you probably missed all the times that I advocate for men’s issues in one form or another. Go back and have a look for that. But your obsession with me and one aspect of what I think, is interesting. Particularly interesting since you ignore anything I say that doesn’t fit your preconception.

Anyway tire fee to obsess over me but I have other priorities. I actually care about both men’s and women’s issues. I know I’ve lost a lot of the big brave anti feminism bucks by mentioning men’s issues. All they want to do is say, yet again, “I disagree with feminism because blah blah blah”. Rinse an deepest.

Id love to see that energy our into men’s issues. It’s almost time for international men’s day. The day which these same big brave anti feminism bucks will spend giving out that men’s day isn’t as big as the women’s equivalent. They’ll ignore all the issues IMD raises and focus solely on women’s day and feminism. It’s an annual occurrence on boards. Golden opportunity to promote men’s issues and they’ll staff it up the wall for a chance to have a pop at feminists.

I don’t have to agree with everything they do to admire feminists’ effectiveness at publicising issues. I’d love if men’s issues got that kind of publicity. But the people who you’d think would support those issues are all busy in a circle jerk and telling each other they’ve found a flaw in feminism because feminists focus on women’s issues but they have equality as a goal. Gotcha! Splat.

I'm impressed with your dedication, that is all, just because you are repeating the word "obsessed" does not make you right, in fact, it is consistent with your form....you are a soldier of feminism, this thread, which I started is about a ridiculous article about female victimhood, one of many articles published every day...it is not about men's rights, I'd feel embarrassed if media decided men needed to be empowered and began publishing infantile arguments about how women oppress a mans need to be angry or need to fart in work or some such banal clickbait topic...

Reviews and Books Galore

A male femenist is pretty much a second class citizen, and there are countless stories of men supporting feminism and then being bitten at the nearest sight of trouble. Joss Whedon, John Traduea, etc.

El_Duderino 09

Silentcorner wrote: »

I'm impressed with your dedication, that is all, just because you are repeating the word "obsessed" does not make you right, in fact, it is consistent with your form....you are a soldier of feminism, this thread, which I started is about a ridiculous article about female victimhood, one of many articles published every day...it is not about men's rights, I'd feel embarrassed if media decided men needed to be empowered and began publishing infantile arguments about how women oppress a mans need to be angry or need to fart in work or some such banal clickbait topic...

I’d love if men’s issues could get the publicity women’s issues get. I’d focus on the more serious issues, naturally.

But instead they’re stuck on repeat, backslapping and daisy chaining each other for disagreeing with feminism. Pity really because there are genuine men’s issues which get ignored while they compete to see who can make the most hyperbolic analogy about feminism.

Silentcorner

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I’d love if men’s issues could get the publicity women’s issues get. I’d focus on the more serious issues, naturally.

But instead they’re stuck on repeat, backslapping and daisy chaining each other for disagreeing with feminism. Pity really because there are genuine men’s issues which get ignored while they compete to see who can make the most hyperbolic analogy about feminism.

There is a huge difference between issues affecting women and the pillars of modern day feminism, this wave of feminism is a movement based on untruths, misrepresentations and deliberately divisive issues.

You have never addressed the pillars of feminism I outlined earlier, feminists never do....

Men and Women are not the same.
The Gender Pay Gap has been debunked time and time again.
There is no Rape Culture.
Domestic Abuse is as big a problem for men as it is for women.
Women are not being oppressed in any way shape or form, in this part of the world.
Feminism is not concerned with equality between the genders, it's concern is the female gender full stop.

Now are you suggesting that men engage in similar, do you think that would lead to a more divisive culture or a more progressive culture.

What we need is for people to think a lot more studiously about what group think they are gorging on, because there is and will be very serious consequences for engaging in falsehoods for all of us.

I would be embarrassed as a man, if men behaved the way feminists do.

El_Duderino 09

Silentcorner wrote: »

There is a huge difference between issues affecting women and the pillars of modern day feminism, this wave of feminism is a movement based on untruths, misrepresentations and deliberately divisive issues.

You have never addressed the pillars of feminism I outlined earlier, feminists never do....

Men and Women are not the same.
The Gender Pay Gap has been debunked time and time again.
There is no Rape Culture.
Domestic Abuse is as big a problem for men as it is for women.
Women are not being oppressed in any way shape or form, in this part of the world.
Feminism is not concerned with equality between the genders, it's concern is the female gender full stop.

Now are you suggesting that men engage in similar, do you think that would lead to a more divisive culture or a more progressive culture.

What we need is for people to think a lot more studiously about what group think they are gorging on, because there is and will be very serious consequences for engaging in falsehoods for all of us.

I would be embarrassed as a man, if men behaved the way feminists do.

Ok. I don’t think that post has anything to do with the one you quoted. Is it a copy and paste of one of your earlier posts?

So those are the pillars of modern feminism? Should I now make an argument for them because you say so? They might be big issues for you, but they’re not big issues for me.

I think you’ve missed the bit where I said I’d like if men’s issues COULD get the attention women’s issues can get. But naturally I’d focus on the importantly issues.

I’m always fascinated by this idea of divisiveness. That only really exists online. Maybe you live online but I live in the real world where these issues never, ever, ever come up. If men could organise to push issues like father’s rights. Decent fathers, good men who struggle to see their children that could get great publicity and go towards judicial change.

I think suicide prevention already does get publicity. Domestic violence against men needs publicity. Boys falling behind in school needs publicity.

But yes, let’s limit the conversation to your “pillars of modern feminism”. Will that ever lead to men’s issues being sorted, do you think?

El_Duderino 09

Earthhorse wrote: »

I appreciate you have around seven people to respond to but it’s worth examining this in a bit more depth.



Smoking was banned from sponsoring major sporting events back in the day. It has also been taxed out the wazoo for a long time. We then banned it from public transport. Then any work environment. We banned it from advertising altogether. There are also lots of restrictions regarding showing smoking in comics, TV and films. There’s a whole industry around quitting the damn things.

If we’ve made progress on it it seems unlikely education is to thank or people wouldn’t be taking it up in the first place.



Another one where eventually we decided to mandate the behaviour through legislation.



Probably your best example but a bit different to anti social behaviour in that people have a self interest in learning about it i.e. avoiding unwanted pregnancies and protecting their health. Still a lot of it about mind.



Tricky one, this. Up until fairly recently Ireland was hardly multicultural at all. So we’ve little baseline to go by. If you want to take somewhere like the States racial tensions are currently at an all time high since the civil rights movement. And if you want to talk about the success of that movement it was a result of huge campaigning as well as weird political good fortune (JFK's untimely death giving LBJ a mandate).



Again, a tricky one. We have marriage rights for some sex couples now. But hardly because of education. The influence of the church has all but vanished from Irish political life largely thanks to the scandals besetting the Catholic Church and their awful handling of same. The LBGT community put in huge efforts to bring change about too. But homophobia is hardly a thing of the past.

So things can definitely change for the better but to credit education seems far wide of the mark in most instances. Economic, cultural and political forces have a greater say.

Bear in mind there are many areas where we are losing ground too. We now live in an age where denying the efficacy of vaccines has led to the reemergence of old diseases as a threat again.

Education can play a part but it’s somewhat limited and it just gets trotted out as an easy answer to everything because people don’t want to face up to the difficult task of trying to reduce anti social behaviour.

Oh yes legislation plays a part too. If you got the impression the education was he only lever, then you were mistaken.

Education gets into culture and changes things. For example soap operas play a role. Role playing the negative consequences of behaviours like having a character with smoking related illness or a character with HIV (bigger in the early 90s) have had a real impact.

Smoking legislation is a tricky one. Isn’t the old adage that banning things only strengthens their appeal? So clampingbdown I’m selling fags to young people. But smoking has decreased for young people over the years. It always fascinated me how my mates got money for fags, and now young people are choosing not to start smoking at higher rates than ever before.

You can downplay the role of education, but the research is really clear on it as a really important end effective internal lever on behaviour change.

Silentcorner

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ok. I don’t think that post has anything to do with the one you quoted. Is it a copy and paste of one of your earlier posts?

So those are the pillars of modern feminism? Should I now make an argument for them because you say so? They might be big issues for you, but they’re not big issues for me.

I think you’ve missed the bit where I said I’d like if men’s issues COULD get the attention women’s issues can get. But naturally I’d focus on the importantly issues.

I’m always fascinated by this idea of divisiveness. That only really exists online. Maybe you live online but I live in the real world where these issues never, ever, ever come up. If men could organise to push issues like father’s rights. Decent fathers, good men who struggle to see their children that could get great publicity and go towards judicial change.

I think suicide prevention already does get publicity. Domestic violence against men needs publicity. Boys falling behind in school needs publicity.

But yes, let’s limit the conversation to your “pillars of modern feminism”. Will that ever lead to men’s issues being sorted, do you think?

Well, they are the issues that most Feminists would use to justify their feminism, are they not...I've never heard any feminist mention poop shaming or cycling or orgasm gaps or mansplaining or manspreading or any of the other myriad of trivial things men are getting castigated for in media these days...

If you think that this divisiveness only exists online it is because it is only online where it manifests itself, people are afraid to criticize it in the workplace, media, or anywhere else!!

Look at what happened to that British Politician who claimed he wasn't a feminist during the recent leadership battle.

It is like the transgender issue, no one is allowed to publicly challenge the fact that we are now teaching our kids that gender is a social construct, but because no one is allowed to challenge it doesn't mean we all accept it...Feminism is one of those ideology that cannot be challenged, like the Catholic Church of old!

But you are kidding yourself if you think it only exists online, it's everywhere and as I said previously, because the Feminists issues that receive the most exposure are pretty much falsehoods, more and more people will begin to speak out about it.

Group think can often be toxic, you can tell this group think is toxic by the language it uses!

Earthhorse

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Oh yes legislation plays a part too. If you got the impression the education was he only lever, then you were mistaken.

Ha ha! The cheek of you! I'm the one who introduced other "levers", as you call them, to the debate and you have the gall to act like I thought education was the only one. It's in these discussions and in the media articles we're discussing that education is seen as a panacea but that point was obviously lost on you.

Education gets into culture and changes things. For example soap operas play a role. Role playing the negative consequences of behaviours like having a character with smoking related illness or a character with HIV (bigger in the early 90s) have had a real impact.

To me this is mistcategoriastion. Soap operas are culture, not education. Of course culture can address and change attitudes in society. In fact, I would say it's more important than education in that regard. If your point is that the writers of these soap operas were able to address these themes thanks to education you'll find that you're underestimating them and they're often ahead of the system in this regard.

Smoking legislation is a tricky one. Isn’t the old adage that banning things only strengthens their appeal? So clampingbdown I’m selling fags to young people. But smoking has decreased for young people over the years. It always fascinated me how my mates got money for fags, and now young people are choosing not to start smoking at higher rates than ever before.

You can downplay the role of education, but the research is really clear on it as a really important end effective internal lever on behaviour change.

It's not my wish to downplay it but rather to dampen people's expectations of it, to neither downplay nor overstate its effects, so it stops being seen as a silver bullet.

El_Duderino 09

Silentcorner wrote: »

Well, they are the issues that most Feminists would use to justify their feminism, are they not...I've never heard any feminist mention poop shaming or cycling or orgasm gaps or mansplaining or manspreading or any of the other myriad of trivial things men are getting castigated for in media these days...

If you think that this divisiveness only exists online it is because it is only online where it manifests itself, people are afraid to criticize it in the workplace, media, or anywhere else!!

Look at what happened to that British Politician who claimed he wasn't a feminist during the recent leadership battle.

It is like the transgender issue, no one is allowed to publicly challenge the fact that we are now teaching our kids that gender is a social construct, but because no one is allowed to challenge it doesn't mean we all accept it...Feminism is one of those ideology that cannot be challenged, like the Catholic Church of old!

But you are kidding yourself if you think it only exists online, it's everywhere and as I said previously, because the Feminists issues that receive the most exposure are pretty much falsehoods, more and more people will begin to speak out about it.

Group think can often be toxic, you can tell this group think is toxic by the language it uses!

You’re still intuiting what I believe, still getting it wrong and still persisting with the notion that you know what I think.

But tell you what, as a reply you could copy and paste that one about the pillars of modern feminism.

Mad_maxx

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Silentcorner wrote: »

There is a huge difference between issues affecting women and the pillars of modern day feminism, this wave of feminism is a movement based on untruths, misrepresentations and deliberately divisive issues.

You have never addressed the pillars of feminism I outlined earlier, feminists never do....

Men and Women are not the same.
The Gender Pay Gap has been debunked time and time again.
There is no Rape Culture.
Domestic Abuse is as big a problem for men as it is for women.
Women are not being oppressed in any way shape or form, in this part of the world.
Feminism is not concerned with equality between the genders, it's concern is the female gender full stop.

Now are you suggesting that men engage in similar, do you think that would lead to a more divisive culture or a more progressive culture.

What we need is for people to think a lot more studiously about what group think they are gorging on, because there is and will be very serious consequences for engaging in falsehoods for all of us.

I would be embarrassed as a man, if men behaved the way feminists do.

Ok. I don’t think that post has anything to do with the one you quoted. Is it a copy and paste of one of your earlier posts?

So those are the pillars of modern feminism? Should I now make an argument for them because you say so? They might be big issues for you, but they’re not big issues for me.

I think you’ve missed the bit where I said I’d like if men’s issues COULD get the attention women’s issues can get. But naturally I’d focus on the importantly issues.

I’m always fascinated by this idea of divisiveness. That only really exists online. Maybe you live online but I live in the real world where these issues never, ever, ever come up. If men could organise to push issues like father’s rights. Decent fathers, good men who struggle to see their children that could get great publicity and go towards judicial change.

I think suicide prevention already does get publicity. Domestic violence against men needs publicity. Boys falling behind in school needs publicity.

But yes, let’s limit the conversation to your “pillars of modern feminism”. Will that ever lead to men’s issues being sorted, do you think?

"Never comes up in real life "

So you don't know any men who struggle to get custody rights or find themselves forced to leave the house they paid for?

Feminists support women having the advantage in any given scenario or situation

El_Duderino 09

Earthhorse wrote: »

To me this is mistcategoriastion. Soap operas are culture, not education. Of course culture can address and change attitudes in society. In fact, I would say it's more important than education in that regard. If your point is that the writers of these soap operas were able to address these themes thanks to education you'll find that you're underestimating them and they're often ahead of the system in this regard.



It's not my wish to downplay it but rather to dampen people's expectations of it, to neither downplay nor overstate its effects, so it stops being seen as a silver bullet.

The bit about soap operas and other cultural stuff is what I said about education taking time so people tend to discount it. Soaps are culture. But they’re also informative on certain levels. They introduce people to issues, over a number of weeks where they see the impact of behaviours playing out.

They’re in the interplay of reflecting and influencing culture.

El_Duderino 09

Mad_maxx wrote: »

"Never comes up in real life "

So you don't know any men who struggle to get custody rights or find themselves forced to leave the house they paid for?

Feminists support women having the advantage in any given scenario or situation

Did the feminists create the legal system that sees women as the primary caregivers?

That’s a job for men’s lobby groups. I’d support the development of men’s lobby groups. Would you?

Reviews and Books Galore

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I’d love if men’s issues could get the publicity women’s issues get. I’d focus on the more serious issues, naturally.

But instead they’re stuck on repeat, backslapping and daisy chaining each other for disagreeing with feminism. Pity really because there are genuine men’s issues which get ignored while they compete to see who can make the most hyperbolic analogy about feminism.

I find it funny how you keep mentioning daisy chaining to subtly insult the posters masculinity. You're not a woman, and I don't think people care if you doubt their masculinity

El_Duderino 09

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

I find it funny how you keep mentioning daisy chaining to subtly insult the posters masculinity. You're not a woman, and I don't think people care if you doubt their masculinity

Ok. But absolutely no response to the futility of the echo chamber

Silentcorner

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You’re still intuiting what I believe, still getting it wrong and still persisting with the notion that you know what I think.

But tell you what, as a reply you could copy and paste that one about the pillars of modern feminism.

But you identify as a feminist, the same way if you identified as a Catholic we could all hazard a guess as to what you believe in, I have identified a number of prominent feminist issues and you haven't engaged, you also haven't told us why you identify as a feminist or outlined any issues that have inspired you to be one.

When you identify as someone who believes in an ideology, be it flat earther, catholic, scientology, feminist or whatever you can expect someone to make assumptions on what you believe in...it's simple really.

If I identified as a die hard Liverpool fan, you could make certain assumptions as to what football club I support....

But you are very slippery at pin pointing why you are a feminist, what about Feminist ideology has attracted you to it?

Silentcorner

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

I find it funny how you keep mentioning daisy chaining to subtly insult the posters masculinity. You're not a woman, and I don't think people care if you doubt their masculinity

It's how he convinces himself that being a feminist affords him a sanctimonious position....it's like the way Catholics used to deal with Protestants...it's mad how humans are so weak we get sucked into ideology blindly!

Silentcorner

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ok. But absolutely no response to the futility of the echo chamber

Do you not understand, the way we consume media, through our phones, means we are all in echo chambers...some are more aware than others it seems!

El_Duderino 09

Silentcorner wrote: »

But you identify as a feminist, the same way if you identified as a Catholic we could all hazard a guess as to what you believe in, I have identified a number of prominent feminist issues and you haven't engaged, you also haven't told us why you identify as a feminist or outlined any issues that have inspired you to be one.

When you identify as someone who believes in an ideology, be it flat earther, catholic, scientology, feminist or whatever you can expect someone to make assumptions on what you believe in...it's simple really.

If I identified as a die hard Liverpool fan, you could make certain assumptions as to what football club I support....

But you are very slippery at pin pointing why you are a feminist, what about Feminist ideology has attracted you to it?

Now, you’ve finally gotten there. Asking what I think instead of presuming to know what I think will make things much better for you.

I identify as feminist for the same reason I identify as caring about men’s issues. They both engage with topics which affect people in the real world. The feminist movement is a whole lot bigger and more effective than a male equivalent. They’re both loose lobby groups which lobby for their cohort. I don’t agree with everything “the feminists” lobby for. I only agree with the issues I agree with. I just don’t bother with the rest.

So while you want to talk about “the pillars of feminism” as you see them. I have no interest. Likewise when I talk about men’s issues that I see as important (legal system, shared parental leave, suicide and mental health, education) you don’t engage because you have no interest. And that’s fair enough. The circular back slapping, and whatever else, continues.

El_Duderino 09

Silentcorner wrote: »

Do you not understand, the way we consume media, through our phones, means we are all in echo chambers...some are more aware than others it seems!

Sure. And saying again and again that “feminism focuses on women’s issues, but holds equality as a goal” amounts to a maths forum where people keep pretending they just figure out that 2+2=4 and keep being satisfied by that discovery.

It’s a whingefest. And whingefests are allowed, no problem there. Let’s not pretend it’s doing anything for men or against feminism.

Reviews and Books Galore

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Now, you’ve finally gotten there. Asking what I think instead of presuming to know what I think will make things much better for you.

I identify as feminist for the same reason I identify as caring about men’s issues. They both engage with topics which affect people in the real world. The feminist movement is a whole lot bigger and more effective than a male equivalent. They’re both loose lobby groups which lobby for their cohort. I don’t agree with everything “the feminists” lobby for. I only agree with the issues I agree with. I just don’t bother with the rest.

So while you want to talk about “the pillars of feminism” as you see them. I have no interest. Likewise when I talk about men’s issues that I see as important (legal system, shared parental leave, suicide and mental health, education) you don’t engage because you have no interest. And that’s fair enough. The circular back slapping, and whatever else, continues.

What's the biggest issue that affects women?

Silentcorner

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Now, you’ve finally gotten there. Asking what I think instead of presuming to know what I think will make things much better for you.

I identify as feminist for the same reason I identify as caring about men’s issues. They both engage with topics which affect people in the real world. The feminist movement is a whole lot bigger and more effective than a male equivalent. They’re both loose lobby groups which lobby for their cohort. I don’t agree with everything “the feminists” lobby for. I only agree with the issues I agree with. I just don’t bother with the rest.

So while you want to talk about “the pillars of feminism” as you see them. I have no interest. Likewise when I talk about men’s issues that I see as important (legal system, shared parental leave, suicide and mental health, education) you don’t engage because you have no interest. And that’s fair enough. The circular back slapping, and whatever else, continues.

Jesus, you really do exhibit a level of self importance, you identify as a feminist, that has implication on how people interpret what is important to you.

You tell me what the pillars of feminism are, instead of shifting the goalposts every chance you can....the issues I outlined are the most common feminist issues of the day.

Now you are making assumptions about me, which is odd considering I don't identify as anything, my opinions on issues relating to men are not what this thread is about.

You still haven't identified ONE issue relating to women that has attracted you to feminism...don't think that hasn't been noticed.

By the way, I can empathize with a number of issues affecting women in particular, child care, impact of being a stay at home mother, I can empathize with the man handling of women that men are't having to put up with...

But what I cannot relate to is the victimhood culture that this wave of feminism is embracing....I think it is infantile.

Silentcorner

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Sure. And saying again and again that “feminism focuses on women’s issues, but holds equality as a goal” amounts to a maths forum where people keep pretending they just figure out that 2+2=4 and keep being satisfied by that discovery.

It’s a whingefest. And whingefests are allowed, no problem there. Let’s not pretend it’s doing anything for men or against feminism.

None of that makes any sense.

El_Duderino 09

Silentcorner wrote: »

None of that makes any sense.

Sure it does. You keep saying the same stuff over and over again and the big brave anti feminists keep being impressed. It’s as simple as could be.

El_Duderino 09

Silentcorner wrote: »

Jesus, you really do exhibit a level of self importance, you identify as a feminist, that has implication on how people interpret what is important to you.

You tell me what the pillars of feminism are, instead of shifting the goalposts every chance you can....the issues I outlined are the most common feminist issues of the day.

Now you are making assumptions about me, which is odd considering I don't identify as anything, my opinions on issues relating to men are not what this thread is about.

You still haven't identified ONE issue relating to women that has attracted you to feminism...don't think that hasn't been noticed.

By the way, I can empathize with a number of issues affecting women in particular, child care, impact of being a stay at home mother, I can empathize with the man handling of women that men are't having to put up with...

But what I cannot relate to is the victimhood culture that this wave of feminism is embracing....I think it is infantile.

Look, you keep presuming to one what I think, unperturbed by being way off the mark. It’s hardly surprising that if comment on you actually taking the much more useful strategy of asking what I think. But this really isn’t about me. You’re he only one who keeps on and on about me.

But to address your question about the pillars of feminism. Are their defined pillars of feminism. I must confess, I don’t go to all the global feminist meetings so maybe I missed the “pillars of feminism” lectures.

Look you’re so certain that you know what feminism is. But it obviously hasn’t occurred to you that “feminism” isn’t a single movement with a single set of goals that everyone in the world has signed up to. So you could ask what I think but asking me to speak for millions of people in different parts of the world facing different challenges, is silly.