Beef strike II what's a fair base price for the Autumn for R=3= steers?

Bass Reeves

Base price wrote: »

OH was talking to a two finishers that he knows. Their panic is over as their cattle are heading North for slaughter. Bord Bia have approved more factories in the North to slaughter cattle. Beef Plan have shot themselves in the foot.

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/beef/two-more-ni-processors-licensed-by-bord-bia-38502870.html

This is about the tenth tone they were supposed to have shot themselves in the foot. But they are still standing.

K9

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I would have said yes Sunday and Monday but now my attitude has hardened. Processor must make the first move on price now. We saw after the last blockade that after talks processor's tried to drop prices straight away. Now I think all processor's must announce a minimum price from now to Christmas.

Lads think if they walk away now it all for nothing especially if processors start a ting the bollax again. If lads leave the gates there's no going back until next year. It will again take 3-4 weeks to bring it to a head. It s processor problem now any time they want to end it they can.

Do you really think that’s realistic with brexit deadline 6 weeks away?

BarryD2

The factories must be taking a good hit by this stage but are minimising losses by laying off staff. Their tactics are simple enough though, just wait till the various farming interests tear each other apart.

Robson99

wrangler wrote: »

All's fair in war too

Great to see that the Government are happy to see the dole queues increased . It really is a bananna republic controlled by Sir Larry. All take a bow

Panch18

K.G. wrote: »

i think a few of the non protesters have to step back abit here and give the protesters a chance to figure things out.reactionary posting is not helping and neither is cheerleading from the sidelines from people who have no skin in the game

Your probably right

I’ll step back and keep to a read only so going forward, as much as I can at least

wrangler

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I would have said yes Sunday and Monday but now my attitude has hardened. Processor must make the first move on price now. We saw after the last blockade that after talks processor's tried to drop prices straight away. Now I think all processor's must announce a minimum price from now to Christmas.

Lads think if they walk away now it all for nothing especially if processors start a ting the bollax again. If lads leave the gates there's no going back until next year. It will again take 3-4 weeks to bring it to a head. It s processor problem now any time they want to end it they can.

Of course they can say a price and kill five or ten thousand cattle per week that doesn't lose money, maybe great britain or home market....... but no one could be expected to say what they're doing through October.
So it's Irish Beef industry RIP

wrangler

Robson99 wrote: »

Great to see that the Government are happy to see the dole queues increased . It really is a bananna republic controlled by Sir Larry. All take a bow

There's nothing the government can do.
It'll take its course now between the protesters and the factories

K9

wrangler wrote: »

There's nothing the government can do.
It'll take its course now between the protesters and the factories

Even the populist independents are urging the pickets to step down.

Bass Reeves

K9 wrote: »

Do you really think that’s realistic with brexit deadline 6 weeks away?

If it's not Brexit it's another excuse. Mercour was only signed in July will not come into effect for 2-3 years I had a factory agent blaming it for the price fall. FFS if a bird farted methane from picking at cow sh!the the processor's would use it as an excuse to drop beef prices

freedominacup

Danzy wrote: »

The man who finishes 500 or a thousand a year is only a hairbreath from the guy who finishes 50 , in the eyes of the factory they are both going to be squeezed out, a few years is the difference.

The two biggest finishers in my area have left finishing. Between them probably 3000 head a year as little as two years ago. Both gone dairying. One massive expansion the other a new entrant. Both are now for doubling down on protest.

Robson99

freedominacup wrote: »

The two biggest finishers in my area have left finishing. Between them probably 3000 head a year as little as two years ago. Both gone dairying. One massive expansion the other a new entrant. Both are now for doubling down on protest.

Dairying is Not an option for small part time farmers though .. beef and sheep are all that really work especially West of the Shannon. Tillage is a non runner too.
Also this talk that sucklers are not viable and for people to get out of them... well is dairy bred/ reared beef a viable alternative at sub €3.50 a kg??
Problem is price of beef not systems

revsperminute

An individual on here is after stating "Irish Beef Industry RIP"... this post from this individual gives the impression that he or she is delighted that this may come about. If it comes about, there is a lot more agricultural industry that will be RIP.

It is the factories that have caused this mess and its the factories that can solve this mess. Market this and market that is a load of tripe, they are blatantly protecting their huge profits. All you have to do is look at the numbers that MII real off when they are trying to force the protests to stop. Local intervention by local management will solve it at a local level, the factories are still hiding behind that numpty Cormac Healy and lawyers, they should be talking to the picket lines, the farmers will listen if the truth is spoken and we are not blown more guff. Every time Cormac Healy is on the tv or radio he adds more fuel to the fire with his ill advised comments. Once such factory has now issued legal treats against Beef Plan when they were attempting to get the protest to stand down, how can Beef Plan try to attempt to get the protests to stand down with the legal treats now being made.

As for the government, they can do something to try solve this mess, there are thousands of farmers on picket lines that have been visited by numerous politicians but not once as a politician from the government even attempted to address or meet them on the picket lines. Get up off your holes in Dublin and come down the country, your not talking about 100's of venues, there are what 20 odd protest sites at present. Visit them, meet the men and women on these picket lines and talk to them. For fcuk sake, they talk and spout to the media from their protected offices about that the protests are killing the beef industry, come out and meet the men and women face to face ye cowardly bastards.

Bullocks

freedominacup wrote: »

Danzy wrote: »

The man who finishes 500 or a thousand a year is only a hairbreath from the guy who finishes 50 , in the eyes of the factory they are both going to be squeezed out, a few years is the difference.

The two biggest finishers in my area have left finishing. Between them probably 3000 head a year as little as two years ago. Both gone dairying. One massive expansion the other a new entrant. Both are now for doubling down on protest.

How do you mean doubling down ? Standing down or going at it twice as bad

jaymla627

revsperminute wrote: »

An individual on here is after stating "Irish Beef Industry RIP"... this post from this individual gives the impression that he or she is delighted that this may come about. If it comes about, there is a lot more agricultural industry that will be RIP.

It is the factories that have caused this mess and its the factories that can solve this mess. Market this and market that is a load of tripe, they are blatantly protecting their huge profits. All you have to do is look at the numbers that MII real off when they are trying to force the protests to stop. Local intervention by local management will solve it at a local level, the factories are still hiding behind that numpty Cormac Healy and lawyers, they should be talking to the picket lines, the farmers will listen if the truth is spoken and we are not blown more guff. Every time Cormac Healy is on the tv or radio he adds more fuel to the fire with his ill advised comments. Once such factory has now issued legal treats against Beef Plan when they were attempting to get the protest to stand down, how can Beef Plan try to attempt to get the protests to stand down with the legal treats now being made.

As for the government, they can do something to try solve this mess, there are thousands of farmers on picket lines that have been visited by numerous politicians but not once as a politician from the government even attempted to address or meet them on the picket lines. Get up off your holes in Dublin and come down the country, your not talking about 100's of venues, there are what 20 odd protest sites at present. Visit them, meet the men and women on these picket lines and talk to them. For fcuk sake, they talk and spout to the media from their protected offices about that the protests are killing the beef industry, come out and meet the men and women face to face ye cowardly bastards.

Their hedging their bets if britexit goes wrong beef industry is practically finished so the current state of play suits them, the narrative will be the protesting no compromise farmers are to blame, if a deal is struck with britexit they will more then likely pony up funding in some fudge to appease farmers, our they’ll simply just have to find another couple of hundred million for the social welfare budget

Bass Reeves

Bullocks wrote: »

freedominacup wrote: »

Danzy wrote: »

The man who finishes 500 or a thousand a year is only a hairbreath from the guy who finishes 50 , in the eyes of the factory they are both going to be squeezed out, a few years is the difference.

The two biggest finishers in my area have left finishing. Between them probably 3000 head a year as little as two years ago. Both gone dairying. One massive expansion the other a new entrant. Both are now for doubling down on protest.

How do you mean doubling down ? Standing down or going at it twice as bad

I have read it as keep it going until the factories give in. Loads of midsized finisher's forced out if the business that were unwilling to go on contract to the processors.

There is another phenomenon now. About 10 years got 50%of cattle slaughtered were from lads supplying 20 or less cattle if I remember right. This has changed slightly but I would say 70% of cattle are slaughtered from lads killing 60-80or less. All these lads have less money to pass down the line. Bigger finisher's have got bigger but so have smaller lads.

greysides

Mod:
I've been catching up on the posts since early this morning. I really wish I could have avoided it.
This forum has always maintained a standard in its posts. At times a stick has been needed but usually a carrot works. It works because there is generally a mature, responsible and level-headed approach taken to posting.
This is now absent.
There is no excuse for the level of profanity, abuse and allegations that have been posted.
Yes, its a heated topic. But 'no'. This standard of discourse is not acceptable.
The sensible and inciteful posts are being drowned out. It is becoming hard to call it a discussion.

If you are red-hot annoyed it is NOT the time to post.
Cool down and then, make your point.

greysides

Temporary closure.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Mod note: Reopened, for now anyway.

Cool your jets, folks, we would prefer not to be carding posters here but thread bans don't seem to be a deterrent anymore. You own what you post here so expect to be held accountable for your posts.

Play nicely and head away for a few minutes before posting if you get a rush of blood to the head.

OK?

Buford T. Justice

riemann

True Slane have stood down?

First domino to fall surely.

alps

longgonesilver wrote: »

IFA and more of the organisations tried to get this practise changed for years but failed. Revenue should pay the refunds directly to the farmer.

What is the French system?

No chance it would work..

Only 50% of farmers would put in the claim
30% wouldn't be arsed
and 20% would say it was a scheme got by IFA so wouldn't be worth a chyte

wrangler

alps wrote: »

No chance it would work..

Only 50% of farmers would put in the claim
30% wouldn't be arsed
and 20% would say it was a scheme got by IFA so wouldn't be worth a chyte

Couldn't have put it better myself, it's computed by a rolling formula so it changes with prevailing vat rate and doesn't seem to have to be fought for

alps

jaymla627 wrote: »

Their hedging their bets if britexit goes wrong beef industry is practically finished so the current state of play suits them, the narrative will be the protesting no compromise farmers are to blame, if a deal is struck with britexit they will more then likely pony up funding in some fudge to appease farmers, our they’ll simply just have to find another couple of hundred million for the social welfare budget

I've mentioned here previously about the amount if investment these processors have put in the UK over the last couple of years. Its showing now with the instant capability of being able to process Irish meat, certified, in the UK.

This ties nicely into Brexit as exported carcasses are of less value than finished product, and will attract much lower import duties.

They can then process to their requirement in the UK

Base price

riemann wrote: »

True Slane have stood down?

First domino to fall surely.

Yes they have stood down I presume due to the fact that there was legal action taken against Beef Plan Company director Hugh Doyle by Dawn Meats last night.
https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/dawn-meats-pursues-beef-plan-director-in-legal-action/

Base price

Slane protesters issue a statement this evening -
https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/slane-protesters-stand-down-in-best-interests-of-beef-industry/

Fedlot

You are Almost right but definitely on the right track. The price quoted by the factory includes flat rate vat compensation at 5.4% . The factories are registered for vat so they can reclaim the vat on their normal invoices and also claim back the 5.4%. They have no vat on their sales as meat is exempt.

The 5.4% is compensation for a small farmer not being registered for vat and therefore not being able to claim back vat on their invoices . You guys don’t make anything from vat as system is designed to ensure its neutral. But, imagine if your a feedlot with 10,000 cattle ! . That’s a lot of vat and at 5.4% results in a couple of hundred thousand euros profit for them. Work it out !.
France don’t allow this happen as once your turnover is above €76k you are not allowed operate the flat rate compensation scheme. We have no limits and do allow it . ! —— So how do you think you guys can compete against that?.

K.G.

Am i missing something but the 5.4 % only applies to non reg farmers.if you are registered for vat you dont get it.there was an issue in the chicken industry a few years back if i remember correctly

longgonesilver

alps wrote: »

No chance it would work..

Only 50% of farmers would put in the claim
30% wouldn't beD arsed
and 20% would say it was a scheme got by IFA so wouldn't be worth a chyte

It would come through automatically, no need to claim,

Only a problem if you have a problem with revenue knowing you send cattle to the factory..

Quoting for cattle including VAT should be the same as a business not including VAT in a price--illegal

Fedlot

That’s correct -
The 5.4% is NOT actually vat - it’s compensation which has been calculated to roughly equate to what a small farmer would reclaim if they were registered and had to pay 4.8% on sales and claim back 4.8%/13.5% /23% on their various invoices .
I can’t post links here as I haven't hit the 5 post rule but please google shields versus inland revenue uk vat . It’s all there, only in the uk the rate is actually only 4%.
Now, think of who owns the feedlots and who represents(ed) you all and join the dots.
And finally - read below .

Taxation: Commission refers Germany to the Court for its failure to apply EU rules on VAT for farmers
Brussels, 25 July 2019
Today the Commission has decided to refer Germany to the Court of Justice of the EU for not applying the EU Value Added Tax (VAT) scheme for farmers correctly.
Under current EU rules, Member States can apply a flat-rate VAT scheme (Council Directive 2006/112/EC) which allows farmers to charge their customers a standard amount – or ‘flat-rate compensation' - on their agricultural products and services. In turn, those farmers cannot claim compensation for VAT they have already paid. The scheme is supposed to be used by farmers who are likely to experience administrative difficulties when following normal VAT rules or the simplified rules provided for small companies.
However, Germany applies the flat-rate scheme by default to all farmers, including owners of large farms, regardless of whether they encounter such administrative difficulties. The only farmers who cannot benefit from the scheme are commercial livestock breeders. In addition, according to figures from the German Supreme Audit Institution (Bundesrechnungshof), German farmers to whom the flat- rate scheme applies are also being overcompensated for the VAT they have paid. This is not allowed under EU rules and generates major distortions of competition in the internal market, in particular in favour of big farmers who do not encounter difficulties with the normal VAT arrangements.

SuperTortoise

Disappointed with the standown if i'm honest, there was nothing of note in the proposed "deal".

Was it not agreed that the factories would not pursue groups and individual members with legal action and fines? Did'nt last long.

Base price

SuperTortoise wrote: »

Disappointed with the standown if i'm honest, there was nothing of note in the proposed "deal".

Was it not agreed that the factories would not pursue groups and individual members with legal action and fines? Did'nt last long.

The agreement was on the condition that all blockades/protests be lifted from the factory gates and in exchange the legal proceedings would be dropped.

wonski

SuperTortoise wrote: »

Disappointed with the standown if i'm honest, there was nothing of note in the proposed "deal".

Was it not agreed that the factories would not pursue groups and individual members with legal action and fines? Did'nt last long.

The agreement that wasn't accepted you mean???

Sure if 500k worth of meat was to be thrown away someone has to pay.

Castlekeeper

alps wrote: »

Castlekeeper wrote: »

It's not the way the chicken business works, contracts agreed before houses are filled, grower knows his margins depending on the usual variables.
Neither rubbish nor sentiment, just good business for all.

The chickens business operates the same way as the feedlot. The processor owns the chickens and pays for the feed. The farmer gets paid a contracted price to rear them.

This thread has been spitting fire about the evils of the feedlot..

Is it OK now?

That's not the way it operates in the chicken business around here.

wrangler

SuperTortoise wrote: »

Disappointed with the standown if i'm honest, there was nothing of note in the proposed "deal".

Was it not agreed that the factories would not pursue groups and individual members with legal action and fines? Did'nt last long.

Deal was broke on monday, with all the meetings on sunday there was no decision to accept it so it was over monday morning

Danzy

Fedlot wrote: »

You are Almost right but definitely on the right track. The price quoted by the factory includes flat rate vat compensation at 5.4% . The factories are registered for vat so they can reclaim the vat on their normal invoices and also claim back the 5.4%. They have no vat on their sales as meat is exempt.

The 5.4% is compensation for a small farmer not being registered for vat and therefore not being able to claim back vat on their invoices . You guys don’t make anything from vat as system is designed to ensure its neutral. But, imagine if your a feedlot with 10,000 cattle ! . That’s a lot of vat and at 5.4% results in a couple of hundred thousand euros profit for them. Work it out !.
France don’t allow this happen as once your turnover is above €76k you are not allowed operate the flat rate compensation scheme. We have no limits and do allow it . ! —— So how do you think you guys can compete against that?.

Serious money would have been paid to ensure that didn't apply to feedlots and factories.

Will we get a receipt, will we ****.

CloughCasey1

wrangler wrote: »

Deal was broke on monday, with all the meetings on sunday there was no decision to accept it so it was over monday morning

You'll sleep soundly on that thought tonight.

K.G.

wrangler wrote: »

Deal was broke on monday, with all the meetings on sunday there was no decision to accept it so it was over monday morning

This has been over since Monday week

foundation10

wrangler wrote: »

Deal was broke on monday, with all the meetings on sunday there was no decision to accept it so it was over monday morning

Was Monday stated as a cut off date in the terms of the deal as I don't recall reading it?

wonski

foundation10 wrote: »

Was Monday stated as a cut off date in the terms of the deal as I don't recall reading it?

Immediate or something.

It was clear that blockades were to go to stop legal proceedings. You can't go another day or three and say we are now gone.

wrangler

Fedlot wrote: »

You are Almost right but definitely on the right track. The price quoted by the factory includes flat rate vat compensation at 5.4% . The factories are registered for vat so they can reclaim the vat on their normal invoices and also claim back the 5.4%. They have no vat on their sales as meat is exempt.

The 5.4% is compensation for a small farmer not being registered for vat and therefore not being able to claim back vat on their invoices . You guys don’t make anything from vat as system is designed to ensure its neutral. But, imagine if your a feedlot with 10,000 cattle ! . That’s a lot of vat and at 5.4% results in a couple of hundred thousand euros profit for them. Work it out !.
France don’t allow this happen as once your turnover is above €76k you are not allowed operate the flat rate compensation scheme. We have no limits and do allow it . ! —— So how do you think you guys can compete against that?.

Is it not compulsory to register for vat at that turnover in Ireland.
Even if it wasn't they'd be registered any way.
Does the following not apply to feedlots
: Currently, in Ireland, you are required to register for VAT if you provide, or believe you will generate turnover from the provision of services to the value of €37,500 in any continuous period of twelve months. This increased to €75,000 for the sale of products.

foundation10

wrangler wrote: »

Is it not compulsory to register for vat at that turnover in Ireland.
Even if it wasn't they'd be registered any way.
Does the following not apply to feedlots
: Currently, in Ireland, you are required to register for VAT if you provide, or believe you will generate turnover from the provision of services to the value of €37,500 in any continuous period of twelve months. This increased to €75,000 for the sale of products.

Farmers are not required to register for VAT in Ireland regardless of turnover

wrangler

foundation10 wrote: »

Was Monday stated as a cut off date in the terms of the deal as I don't recall reading it?

true and factories were entitled to keep going with legal proceedings until the protestors stood down

wrangler

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

You'll sleep soundly on that thought tonight.

They got 48hrs, I've been in negotiations where the offer lasted until you stood up from the table if you didn't sign off.
Banks do that

mf240

Will they hold base price now or drop it as a lesson.

I presume the extra few cents bonus will be taken off the base anyway

Water John

Michael Hoey of Country Crest, a man I have respect for, spoke well today on the issue to Agriland;
“It’s the base price that is the problem, and if the primary producer can’t get enough money to produce that product and to make a living from it, how can they continue to do it?” he asked.

He continued: “The meat industry is being very unfair. They need to understand that their living is coming from the primary producer out there. They need to understand the crisis that [the farmers] are in at the minute.”

This is worth reading from a business man who has a good record.
https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/i-would-appeal-to-the-meat-factories-just-go-and-fix-this/

Bullocks

mf240 wrote: »

Will they hold base price now or drop it as a lesson.  

I presume the extra few cents bonus will be taken off the base anyway

I wonder what price will be given tomorrow alright

Danzy

mf240 wrote: »

Will they hold base price now or drop it as a lesson.

I presume the extra few cents bonus will be taken off the base anyway

If they cut it, then the protests will see factories closed till Christmas.

PeadarCo

Castlekeeper wrote:

That's not the way it operates in the chicken business around here.

There is at least one chicken processor in Ireland that operates like that. Farmers farm the chickens but feed and the chickens are all provided and sold back at an agreed price. Chicken farmers are in n a different market to beef farmers. Apparently due to Irish tastes there aren't enough chicken farmers in Ireland to provide the all the chicken demanded in Ireland or at least the white meat part of the chicken(apparently Ireland has to import white meat from chickens but exports every other part due to different Irish and international tastes). From talking to a person working in a factory this gives chicken farmers far far more bargaining power than beef farmers. If a factory wants Irish chicken the options appear to be far more limited than the beef market.

freedominacup

wonski wrote: »

Immediate or something.

It was clear that blockades were to go to stop legal proceedings. You can't go another day or three and say we are now gone.

Yes you can but time really ticking down now. Tomorrow evening will see changes to the approach if pickets aren't seen to be stood down. According to one of the negotiators at a public meeting tonight.

Panch18

freedominacup wrote: »

Yes you can but time really ticking down now. Tomorrow evening will see changes to the approach if pickets aren't seen to be stood down. According to one of the negotiators at a public meeting tonight.

So what was discussed and what was agreed at your meeting freedom?

gozunda

whelan2 wrote: »

Knackery are back collecting today

One pased me at the top of the road today and the stench was eye watering.