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Does anyone actually believe that Gerry Adams wasn't in the IRA?

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    #512
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,668 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    If Adam's turned out to be part of the legal, democratic BA machine, where would that leave your view of them not being criminal for example?

    I asked blanch152 that but never got an answer. blanch152 doesnt "condemn them as people" though and went on to forge new grounds in whataboutery by 'blah blah something unrelated, Francie ..' - or something


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    #513
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,971 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    maccored wrote: »
    you said it was 'clever' and asked the question yourself as well .....

    Great, we agree, I didn't bring the British agent thing into the thread.


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    #514
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,971 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    Says who? The British? The IRA would have to go a very long way to compete with the British.




    You are critical of Adams and SF and the IRA. If Adam's turned out to be part of the legal, democratic BA machine, where would that leave your view of them not being criminal for example?


    Where did I say that the British Army were never criminal?

    I have said that in democracies security forces have the right to use force in certain circumstances. However, this is not an unrestricted right, and on occasion such use of force is criminal. Hence, I support the prosecution of Soldier F.

    By contrast, terrorist organisations such as the Provisional IRA operating in democracies do not have legitimacy when using force and are always criminal. That is my clear position, expressed several times. So, it doesn't matter to me whether Gerry Adams was a British agent or not, he is a criminal in my eyes.

    Now, maybe you or Francie or maccored can tell us whether you would still regard Gerry as a hero if it turned out he was a British agent. Given the way you are all hedging your bets on this one, I am beginning to think that you all know something more about it than I do.


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    #515
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Where did I say that the British Army were never criminal?

    I have said that in democracies security forces have the right to use force in certain circumstances. However, this is not an unrestricted right, and on occasion such use of force is criminal. Hence, I support the prosecution of Soldier F.

    By contrast, terrorist organisations such as the Provisional IRA operating in democracies do not have legitimacy when using force and are always criminal. That is my clear position, expressed several times. So, it doesn't matter to me whether Gerry Adams was a British agent or not, he is a criminal in my eyes.

    Now, maybe you or Francie or maccored can tell us whether you would still regard Gerry as a hero if it turned out he was a British agent. Given the way you are all hedging your bets on this one, I am beginning to think that you all know something more about it than I do.

    You said:
    The British government did wrong, but they weren't a criminal organisation

    Do you believe the BA to be a rogue element without a nation?

    If your army is labelled criminal by the army you are fighting, does it count?

    They might when that democracy is a sham.

    Maybe you will tell me when anyone of those listed said Gerry was their hero? This is your problem. You infer and assume things and then cite them as if a matter of record.

    I would be very disappointed if any Irish person fighting for equality and a UI was a traitor to their cause. Adams or not.


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    #516
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,971 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    You said:



    Do you believe the BA to be a rogue element without a nation?

    If your army is labelled criminal by the army you are fighting, does it count?

    They might when that democracy is a sham.

    Maybe you will tell me when anyone of those listed said Gerry was their hero? This is your problem. You infer and assume things and then cite them as if a matter of record.

    I would be very disappointed if any Irish person fighting for equality and a UI was a traitor to their cause. Adams or not.

    The British government, as a democratically elected government is by definition not a criminal organisation. That doesn't mean that a government cannot commit criminal acts. There is a huge difference between the two and you should by now be able to distinguish that.

    The British Army by definition as a legitimate security force of a democratic country is not a criminal organisation. Again, that does not mean that the British Army cannot commit criminal acts.

    This is basic stuff.


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    #517
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,668 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Great, we agree, I didn't bring the British agent thing into the thread.

    we agree you applauded it and then went on to ask the same question - what if gerry was a brit spy.

    I have no idea how that excuses your avoidance of answering the question yourself.

    Do you think gerry adams was a british spy? Are you going to answer that question or avoid it once again?


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    #518
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,592 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    maccored wrote: »
    we agree you applauded it and then went on to ask the same question - what if gerry was a brit spy.

    I have no idea how that excuses your avoidance of answering the question yourself.

    Do you think gerry adams was a british spy? Are you going to answer that question or avoid it once again?

    I reckon he was, no smoke without fire and all that jazz.


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    #519
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,124 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    blanch152 wrote: »
    ..............

    By contrast, terrorist organisations such as the Provisional IRA operating in democracies do not have legitimacy when using force and are always criminal. That is my clear position, expressed several times. So, it doesn't matter to me whether Gerry Adams was a British agent or not, he is a criminal in my eyes.

    ............




    Interesting. Did you consider the ANC a "terrorist" organisation that had no legitamacy?


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    #520
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,519 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    maccored wrote: »
    blanch152 wrote: »
    Great, we agree, I didn't bring the British agent thing into the thread.

    we agree you applauded it and then went on to ask the same question - what if gerry was a brit spy.

    I have no idea how that excuses your avoidance of answering the question yourself.

    Do you think gerry adams was a british spy? Are you going to answer that question or avoid it once again?

    I don’t think anyone cares a jot if he was a British spy or not. If he was a British spy it was only because there was a British presence in the north so ultimately the British are to he blame if he decided to become a British spy and anyway he didn’t really have a choice anyway. And if he lies about being a a British spy, he has a right to lie, he would be a fool to tell the truth. All this because of partition.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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    #521
    JohnnyFlash
    Registered Users Posts: 7,055 ✭✭✭JohnnyFlash


    Where is our man Gerry these days?


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    #522
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,184 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    JohnnyFlash wrote: »
    Where is our man Gerry these days?

    He's growing a long white beard and living with the other old leaders in the Antrim hills of course...pay attention.


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    #523
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,124 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    He's growing a long white beard and living with the other old leaders in the Antrim hills of course...pay attention.




    He's now known as Gerronicus - shaman and sage, living with nature and dispensing the wisdom of the druids.


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    #524
    JohnnyFlash
    Registered Users Posts: 7,055 ✭✭✭JohnnyFlash


    Odhinn wrote: »
    He's now known as Gerronicus - shaman and sage, living with nature and dispensing the wisdom of the druids.


    Does the ancient wisdom of the druids involve telling his brother to rock over the border so he can continue to nonce kids?


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    #525
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,184 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    JohnnyFlash wrote: »
    Does the ancient wisdom of the druids involving telling his brother to rock over the border so he can continue to nonce kids?

    His brother is dead as far as I know.


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    #526
    holyhead
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,249 ✭✭✭holyhead


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    His brother is dead as far as I know.

    He died in February this year aged 63.


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    #527
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,592 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    holyhead wrote: »
    He died in February this year aged 63.

    20+ years too late imo


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    #528
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,971 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    His brother is dead as far as I know.

    And that is relevant to him being given a job in Louth when Gerry knew he was a child abuser?


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    #529
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,184 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blanch152 wrote: »
    And that is relevant to him being given a job in Louth when Gerry knew he was a child abuser?

    Well his brother is dead and Adams owned up to making mistakes in relation to him and gave evidence against him.


  • Options
    #530
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,668 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    I reckon he was, no smoke without fire and all that jazz.

    Then stop giving out about SF etc - its the british government you want to complain about as they obviously (going by your theory) kept the whole thing going since they controlled both sides


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    #531
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,668 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    I don’t think anyone cares a jot if he was a British spy or not. If he was a British spy it was only because there was a British presence in the north so ultimately the British are to he blame if he decided to become a British spy and anyway he didn’t really have a choice anyway. And if he lies about being a a British spy, he has a right to lie, he would be a fool to tell the truth. All this because of partition.

    ah right - its not OK to not care if he was in the IRA but its fine to not care if he was a spy or not


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    #532
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,519 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    maccored wrote: »
    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    I don’t think anyone cares a jot if he was a British spy or not. If he was a British spy it was only because there was a British presence in the north so ultimately the British are to he blame if he decided to become a British spy and anyway he didn’t really have a choice anyway. And if he lies about being a a British spy, he has a right to lie, he would be a fool to tell the truth. All this because of partition.

    ah right - its not OK to not care if he was in the IRA but its fine to not care if he was a spy or not

    I was pointing out the hypocrisy of just what you replied actually.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Options
    #533
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    blanch152 wrote: »
    The British government, as a democratically elected government is by definition not a criminal organisation. That doesn't mean that a government cannot commit criminal acts. There is a huge difference between the two and you should by now be able to distinguish that.

    I can. You need see things from every perspective. You've a foreign army carrying out often criminal acts and supporting terrorism. Then you've a counter terrorist organisation, who would see themselves as an army fighting a war.
    I recognise the British are a democratic entity but that doesn't mean they're automatically admirable or lawful.
    blanch152 wrote: »
    The British Army by definition as a legitimate security force of a democratic country is not a criminal organisation. Again, that does not mean that the British Army cannot commit criminal acts.

    This is basic stuff.

    'tis. Most armies are created and maintained by democratic entities even when carrying out criminal acts of oppression. So, so what? This makes their criminal acts less criminal? If the Queen approves Boris Johnson going shop lifting, is he not really shoplifting?


    *****

    Beyond trying to stir it, do any of those who raised it, think Adams was a British spy/agent and what are their thoughts on it? Something something Jean McConville?


  • Options
    #534
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,668 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    I was pointing out the hypocrisy of just what you replied actually.

    what hypocrisy? Ive already said I couldnt care if he was a spy and i couldnt care if he was in the IRA. Its yourself who claims it matters if he was in the IRA but not if he was a british spy


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    #535
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,519 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    maccored wrote: »
    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    I was pointing out the hypocrisy of just what you replied actually.

    what hypocrisy? Ive already said I couldnt care if he was a spy and i couldnt care if he was in the IRA. Its yourself who claims it matters if he was in the IRA but not if he was a british spy

    If you couldn’t care if he was a spy why have you repeatedly asked numerous posters if they think he was a spy or not?

    Also I simply don’t believe that if you saw a newspaper headline stating “Confirmed:Adams Was British Spy” that you wouldn’t read it.

    If you don’t care if Adams was in the IRA or a British spy why are you even on the thread?

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Options
    #536
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    If you couldn’t care if he was a spy why have you repeatedly asked numerous posters if they think he was a spy or not?

    Also I simply don’t believe that if you saw a newspaper headline stating “Confirmed:Adams Was British Spy” that you wouldn’t read it.

    If you don’t care if Adams was in the IRA or a British spy why are you even on the thread?

    You pursue this yet won't discuss it yourself. What's the point?


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    #537
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,519 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    If you couldn’t care if he was a spy why have you repeatedly asked numerous posters if they think he was a spy or not?

    Also I simply don’t believe that if you saw a newspaper headline stating “Confirmed:Adams Was British Spy” that you wouldn’t read it.

    If you don’t care if Adams was in the IRA or a British spy why are you even on the thread?

    You pursue this yet won't discuss it yourself. What's the point?

    I’ll discuss anything you want. Fire away if you’ll excuse the pun.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Options
    #538
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,519 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    blanch152 wrote: »
    The British government, as a democratically elected government is by definition not a criminal organisation. That doesn't mean that a government cannot commit criminal acts. There is a huge difference between the two and you should by now be able to distinguish that.

    I can. You need see things from every perspective. You've a foreign army carrying out often criminal acts and supporting terrorism. Then you've a counter terrorist organisation, who would see themselves as an army fighting a war.
    I recognise the British are a democratic entity but that doesn't mean they're automatically admirable or lawful.
    blanch152 wrote: »
    The British Army by definition as a legitimate security force of a democratic country is not a criminal organisation. Again, that does not mean that the British Army cannot commit criminal acts.

    This is basic stuff.

    'tis. Most armies are created and maintained by democratic entities even when carrying out criminal acts of oppression. So, so what? This makes their criminal acts less criminal? If the Queen approves Boris Johnson going shop lifting, is he not really shoplifting?


    *****

    Beyond trying to stir it, do any of those who raised it, think Adams was a British spy/agent and what are their thoughts on it? Something something Jean McConville?

    Both myself and Blanch have been accused of bringing up the allegations that Gerry Adams was a British spy in the thread. Neither of us did. It was another poster if you care to check.

    Why is the speculation about Adams being a British spy relevant to this thread. Because for those who say, who cares if he was in the IRA, it doesn’t matter it shows that it does matter.
    The truth about if Adams was an IRA volunteer matters as much as the truth about Adams being a British spy matters.

    For the record I find it difficult to believe that Adams was not an IRA member and find it hard to understand why it is important for some people to pretend he wasn’t.

    Equally I find it very difficult to believe that Adams was a British agent and find it difficult to understand how people can argue that neither matter.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Options
    #539
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,184 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    SafeSurfer wrote: »

    For the record I find it difficult to believe that Adams was not an IRA member and find it hard to understand why it is important for some people to pretend he wasn’t.

    You mean, you find it hard to understand why people don't believe what you believe.


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    #540
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,519 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    SafeSurfer wrote: »

    For the record I find it difficult to believe that Adams was not an IRA member and find it hard to understand why it is important for some people to pretend he wasn’t.

    You mean, you find it hard to understand why people don't believe what you believe.
    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    SafeSurfer wrote: »

    For the record I find it difficult to believe that Adams was not an IRA member and find it hard to understand why it is important for some people to pretend he wasn’t.

    You mean, you find it hard to understand why people don't believe what you believe.

    Some people believe the earth is flat. You won’t change their minds.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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    #541
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,184 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    Some people believe the earth is flat. You won’t change their minds.

    I have explained before how I view this:

    I can see reasons why it would be important for the leader of SF at that time, not to be in the IRA as well. And how it would be a strategic decision. It would have severely retarded the progress of the party had it's very important figurehead (and he was important in formulating SF policy, like it or not) been spending time in jail.

    I STILL have to see any credible reasons for why it matters and what it would change if it turns out he was a member other than some 'I told ya so', gloating.


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