Beef, farming, rural Ireland...are their complaints legitimate?

jam_mac_jam

Donald Trump wrote: »

Difficult to tell whether you understand what you are saying or whether you are are trying to obfuscate things to distract from the fact that you were caught trying to say you didn't say something that you wrote only a few posts back.


Is it more difficult and less economical to provide some services to people who live more spread out? Of course. That is why they don't get provided those services. The one-off house will have to provide it's own septic tank as it will not be connected to a sewerage system. It might have to sink it's own well.


So you are reading that fact and then somehow extrapolating it to say that if you moved those people to a village or "a small cluster" (You said it dude, it is there and in black and white) that the local Post Office wouldn't have to close....because everyone knows that if you live in a one-off house a couple of miles outside town you don't buy stamps but if you moved into the village you would.



What might be happening is that you are conditioned to seeing all the activity down your local Post Office of people collecting their Social Welfare and then going down the road and leaving it behind the bar or at the bookies and are thinking "wow - that's great. If only we forced more people to live in those kinds of estates, the local pubs and bookies would be flying"

Ok. I am a bit lost now. You are constantly going on about the fact I said small clusters and ignoring everything else I am saying. Of course everyone where I live is on social welfare and just spends it in the bookies and pub. Of course. Never mind the article I posted or any of the other points made not about post offices.

Fair enough. Apologies if I didn't explain what I meant

Donald Trump

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Ok. I am a bit lost now. You are constantly going on about the fact I said small clusters and ignoring everything else I am saying. Fair enough. Apologies if I didn't explain what I meant.

Ok. That's fair enough. My issue was with the point that I thought you were making (that others were making here) that pushing people into Rural Clusters instead of one-offs would save local villages.



If that was not what you meant then there was a misunderstanding and I apologize if I came across a bit aggressive

Yurt2

Donald Trump wrote: »

Unfortunately I think that you're trying to explain it to people who think 1.2 miles would necessitate decamping to the local garda station for an instagram opportunity in order to get their entitlement of a #4evahome beside the school

You're at it again. Do you think everyone who doesn't live in one-off wonderland is Nidge from Love / Hate?

Hate to break it to you, and I know this probably dissapoints you, but I pay my own housing costs and have done since I left the homestead many years ago.

The funny thing is, the JR Ewings in the McMansions are as needy and demanding as Margret Cash - except there is more of them. The state just cut a cheque for 5 billion for the national broadband scheme (against all advice) because their Netflix was buffering too much. The biggest pointless whinge. Pay for it yourselves. Oh wait, no, it's completely economically unsustainable for the private sector so lobby the government to sort your poor settling decision.

Donald Trump

Yurt! wrote: »

You're at it again. Do you think everyone who doesn't live in one-off wonderland is Nidge from Love / Hate?

Hate to break it to you, and I know this probably dissapoints you, but I pay my own housing costs and have done since I left the homestead many years ago.

The funny thing is, the JR Ewings in the McMansions are as needy and demanding as Margret Cash - except there is more of them. The state just cut a cheque for 5 billion for the national broadband scheme (against all advice) because their Netflix was buffering too much. The biggest pointless whinge. Pay for it yourselves.

Get over the bitterness and jealousy. It won't do you any good. Be happy with your own life and leave others to do their own thing because it isn't affecting you.



McMansions. :pac:




In case you don't understand, broadband is an infrastructure development project.....imagine if the US had decided 150 years ago that they wouldn't build any railroads to newer territories because there weren't many people there. But you can't see past the tip of your begrduging nose....you think "hey but if they have broadband then that fella who built the mythical mcmansion on the side of a hill in my imagination will be able to get netflix...I can't be having that - sure he's already doing much better than me..and all I have is me netflix"

Yurt2

The American railway network was built with private capital to service a rapidly expanding economy with people flooding West. Not as a publically funded sop to a declining economy that's haemorrhaging young and educated people to urban areas because of crap planning decisions to placate a shortsighted populace. So It's actually the exact opposite.

There will be no silicon valley in whatever boreen you live on. The net effect will be increased Netflix subscriptions and all paid for by the public purse with (Margaret) cash that comes overwhelmingly from urban generated wealth.

markodaly

Excellent article on the issue with the link already posted.
https://irishplanningfutures.wordpress.com/ruralhousing/

Ironically, it is the high cost of servicing ad hoc settlement patterns which has a direct cost to one-off rural dwellers themselves, as the maintenance of basic public services (e.g. roads, post offices, Garda stations, broadband etc.) becomes unaffordable and unviable under such conditions. This results in the frequent withdrawal of services, cementing a downward spiral of disadvantage in many rural regions and a sharp rural/urban divide in political discourse.

The deficiency of rural infrastructure and services is, of course, a regular topic of public debate. However, an open recognition that our scattered settlement patterns is a large part of the problem rarely features. The very high public cost of haphazard development patterns also has a parallel negative impact on our urban centres through the inefficient diversion of public funds. This results in a catch-22 of simultaneously weak cities, towns, villages and rural areas, further exacerbating sprawl all the while reinforcing the outsized dominance of Dublin in the national urban hierarchy.

Also:

Electricity is more expensive


We have far too many roads.

Ireland has 91,000 km of on-national roads (over twice the circumference of the Earth) representing 94% of the total length of all the country’s roads and carrying around 60% of total traffic. Ireland’s road network per head of population (25.68 km per 1,000 population) is considerably greater than the EU average and over twice that of the Member State with the next highest road length (8.5 km per 1,000 population). Many of these minor roads are laneways that evolved with farming practice and are unsuited to significant traffic movements. The high density of non-national roads places an onerous maintenance costs burden on local government.

It affects public transport.

reland is one of the most car dependent societies in the world. The numbers of cars on the road has more than trebled since the 1970s and Irish drivers average approximately 22,000 km per annum which is more than twice the European average, and even higher than the USA. It has been estimated that rural transport accounts for 80% of total vehicle kilometres travelled annually.

It affects water quality.


There is no redeeming feature for one-off housing being built en-mass in Ireland.

jam_mac_jam

markodaly wrote: »

Excellent article on the issue with the link already posted.
https://irishplanningfutures.wordpress.com/ruralhousing/




Also:

Electricity is more expensive


We have far too many roads.


It affects public transport.


It affects water quality.


There is no redeeming feature for one-off housing being built en-mass in Ireland.

The water quality section is particularly horrific.

begsbyOnaTrain

All beef farmers should be imprisoned for eco-terrorism, their farms seized and allowed to become wild again, and the cattle destroyed so as to minimise their climate destroying farts.

Thelonious Monk

markodaly wrote: »

There is no redeeming feature for one-off housing being built en-mass in Ireland.

There isn't, but a massive section of the electorate want it, and it's really just part of Irish culture I suppose, so it's not going anywhere, it'll continue as is. You just have to accept it and pay your inflated city property tax

Yurt2

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

There isn't, but a massive section of the electorate want it, and it's really just part of Irish culture I suppose, so it's not going anywhere, it'll continue as is. You just have to accept it and pay your inflated city property tax

That's why when one-off dwellers go on a moan about garda stations, post offices, rural school bus runs and broadband, people increasingly say f*ck 'em - they made their bed.

I'm serious, I think less of those people (one-off moaners) than every Margret Cash you can think of put together. I grew up in rural Ireland, and so many can't see past the end of their nose when they talk of rural decline. They voted for it, they lobbied for it and they double down every chance they get. It's about the 'chape (or inherited) site' and nothing else.

So yeah, I don't give a hoot; I'd genuinely rather have my taxes go to the 'forever home' crew.

And as for it being 'part of Irish culture,' the overwhelming preponderance of one-offs were built from the 70s onwards. Previously, rural people who lived away from clusters were farmers - others lived in close proximity to villages or market towns. It's a very modern phenomenon. It's killed the Irish village and town.

Thelonious Monk

Yurt! wrote: »

It's killed the Irish village and town.

Everyone on here in one offs says their local villages are thriving.

Yurt2

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Everyone on here in one offs says their local villages are thriving.

I bet they do. Black is white and up is down. But a chape site is always a chape site.

Snow Garden

Yurt! wrote: »

I bet they do. Black is white and up is down. But a chape site is always a chape site.

Sites aren't cheap. Building my 1900 sq ft house wasn't cheap either. The local village is thriving though. I already have fibre BB so Netflix is fine. I got the septic tank emptied in June - twas smelly.

The crop of blackberries and hazelnuts is superb this year.

Yurt2

Snow Garden wrote: »

Sites aren't cheap. Building my 1900 sq ft house wasn't cheap either. The local village is thriving though. I already have fibre BB so Netflix is fine. I got the septic tank emptied in June - twas smelly.

The crop of blackberries and hazelnuts is superb this year.

Nonsense on the sites comment. If 'local need' can be demonstrated/lobbied for, some of these sites in peripheral areas are purchased for less than a 5 or 6 year old VW Golf.


I'm not going to speak to blackberries, becuase I'm not sure what you're getting at. And bear in mind that the cost of running a broadband cable to your rural idyll is ultimately passed on to other consumers.

markodaly

Yurt! wrote: »

And as for it being 'part of Irish culture,' the overwhelming preponderance of one-offs were built from the 70s onwards. Previously, rural people who lived away from clusters were farmers - others lived in close proximity to villages or market towns. It's a very modern phenomenon. It's killed the Irish village and town.

If Irish culture started in the 1970's maybe.

Prior to 1970, 148,513 one-off houses were built in Ireland. However, in tandem with the increasing availability of private cars, since 1970 294,156 one-off dwellings have been built with 117,000 constructed since 2001

The majority of these people have no connection to rural life or agriculture.

The ubiquity of the Irish one-off housing phenomenon, therefore, unlike as regularly depicted in national media and political discourse, has generally nothing to do with agriculture or the rural economy. According to the Teagasc Farm Survey there are currently c.140,000 farms in Ireland, as compared to the 442,669 one-off dwellings. Indeed, the largest socio-economic groups in many parts of rural Ireland are ‘Managerial and Technical’, most of whom commute to nearby urban centres for work by private car.

It also perpetuates inequality, who hear knows the term 'road frontage'.

The strong landed class element of one-off rural housing is suggestive of why it is such a politically shielded phenomenon. This is reinforced by the ‘local need’ restrictions included in the 2005 guidelines and highly favourable intra-family land transfer tax provisions, which socially reproduces privilege and wealth in certain cohorts of Irish society.

While illegal under EU law.

These local need ‘bloodline’ conditions are arguably unlawful under national and European Union law. A report by the Law Society Reform Commission in 2005, hosted on the website of An Bord Pleanala, concluded that such conditions are discriminatory. More recently, a further report on the so-called ‘Flemish Case’, which ruled that ‘bloodline’ conditions were incompatible with EU law, similarly concluded inequitable policies framed around family connections to an area are likely to be found to breach EU law, as the purposes they are intended to achieve (such as preserving rural characteristics etc.) can usually be attained without such discrimination.

One-off housing is a cancer in Irish society and should be stopped immediately.

jam_mac_jam

Its not going to be stopped though because people want it, they vote for it and politicians will not go against it. Councilors or TDs So it can't really be stopped.

There isn't a hope it would even be mentioned by a political party. The whole place went mad when it was suggested you use assets to calculate student grants. It is never ever going to happen.

Thelonious Monk

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Its not going to be stopped though because people want it, they vote for it and politicians will not go against it. Councilors or TDs So it can't really be stopped.

There isn't a hope it would even be mentioned by a political party. The whole place went mad when it was suggested you use assets to calculate student grants. It is never ever going to happen.

Exactly, so just let it be. I'm just happy I don't need to own a car or heat an enormous house that I don't need.

gozunda

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Exactly, so just let it be. I'm just happy I don't need to own a car or heat an enormous house that I don't need.

You're practically a climate angel. Heres your virtual wings...

:rolleyes:

gozunda

begsbyOnaTrain wrote: »

All beef farmers should be imprisoned for eco-terrorism, their farms seized and allowed to become wild again, and the cattle destroyed so as to minimise their climate destroying farts.

Fair enough. Sounds logical. But hate to break it to you - its burps not farts. Ie the other end so to speak ... ;

Some real class comments in here by our resident rural experts. Probably more ****e and hot air produced than by all the cows in the country. And that's saying something.

Graces7

Snow Garden wrote: »

Sites aren't cheap. Building my 1900 sq ft house wasn't cheap either. The local village is thriving though. I already have fibre BB so Netflix is fine. I got the septic tank emptied in June - twas smelly.

The crop of blackberries and hazelnuts is superb this year.

Blackberries have been amazing.

We have an excellent small local internet server out here.

Thelonious Monk

I have tomatoes, chillies, potatoes, butternut squash, and various herbs in my small city back yard

Donald Trump

Yurt! wrote: »

The American railway network was built with private capital to service a rapidly expanding economy with people flooding West.

Sorry dude. I've chosen to ignore the rest of your emotive bitter ramblings, but 20 seconds googling with your superior urban broadband should have allowed you to find that the transcontinental railways, which allowed for, and actually drove, expansion westward in the US, had access to large federal capital and received a lot of subsidies. Something in the region of 200 million acres of land were given to the railway companies.



That's just a fact. Or as you probably call it - "fake news" :pac: