One year on from Ms Cash's impassioned speech

Kelsey Petite Buggy

Kelsey Petite Buggy wrote: »

Traveller culture does irreparable harm to children, raising them in an environment filled with violence and crime, depriving them of a proper education, and turning girls into baby factories while they are still in their teens.

Margaret Cash was taken out of school at age 12. She was married at 15, when other girls her age were doing their Junior Cert. By age 28, she was the mother of seven children, with 39 criminal convictions and her husband in prison. It's absolutely shameful to see this passing for "culture" in twenty-first-century Ireland.

And yet here you are, day after day, defending Travellers on Boards. You don't seem to see how making endless excuses for Travellers and defending their "culture" only enables the ongoing neglect and abuse of children.

I don't see how my agreeing that the travelling community has major social problems like weak educational attainment, mental health problems, domestic abuse, sexism and anti-social behaviour including serious criminality, is defending travellers?

Can you demonstrate where I have defended travellers in this thread? I have simply stopped short of tarring every traveller with the one brush, and pointed out some objective facts, such as what does or does not constitute cruelty against a horse.

You and others are too hysterical to be capable of distinguishing between defending travellers and simply observing facts in a fairly disinterested way. You are so het up about this woman that you perceive every slight dissent as an attack on your bizarre views.

BattleCorp

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I don't see how my agreeing that the travelling community has major social problems like weak educational attainment, mental health problems, domestic abuse, sexism and anti-social behaviour including serious criminality, is defending travellers?

You do appear to be excusing their behaviour by blaming all the stuff you listed above.

The travelling community are doing absolutely nothing to change the negative aspects of their culture and as long as people make excuses for them, things will remain as they are. And I don't think that is acceptable.

PostWoke

PostWoke wrote: »

ABSOLUTE NONSENSE. Kids from travelling communities or low economic status go to the same primary and secondary level education as the rest, but disrupt and bully others instead of learning, which they push back hard against. No homework done, most times they haven't even a pencil in their bag. Come off it now. Did you even go through the Irish educational system?

Is it your contention that family and home life are not relevant to personality development and a child's future prospects?

Because that seems to be the major assumption in this thread. It seems to me that we can either try to rationally discuss, on a macro level, the factors that are likely to cause all of the known social problems in the traveller community, ideally with resort to some evidence, or we can just continue to bleat and bitch about one woman's Facebook page.

Is anyone here even interested in really discussing this problem seriously, or are we just hear for some kind of chat you can easily get down the hairdresser's?

BattleCorp

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Is it your contention that family and home life are not relevant to personality development and a child's future prospects?

Because that seems to be the major assumption in this thread. It seems to me that we can either try to rationally discuss, on a macro level, the factors that are likely to cause all of the known social problems in the traveller community, ideally with resort to some evidence, or we can just continue to bleat and bitch about one woman's Facebook page.

Is anyone here even interested in really discussing this problem seriously, or are we just hear for some kind of chat you can easily get down the hairdresser's?

Ok. I'll engage. I've a few minutes to kill before lunchtime.

What would you do to change the negative aspects of traveller culture?

BattleCorp

BattleCorp wrote: »

You do appear to be excusing their behaviour by blaming all the stuff you listed above.

What do you mean "blaming all the stuff you listed". That was a list of social problems in the traveller community. The fact that you interpreted that as a defence of travellers makes me question if a reasonable exchange of views is possible, because it seems likely that people aren't even reading posts at this stage.

BattleCorp

BattleCorp wrote: »

Ok. I'll engage. I've a few minutes to kill before lunchtime.

What would you do to change the negative aspects of traveller culture?

Engage children in specific educational programmes at a young age, and diversion programmes (such as working with horses and doing associated apprenticeships) later in their education.

At present, the educational system is passively allowing traveller children to drift, and a new focus has to be more prescriptive, whether that be by mandating participation for children with specific socio economic problems in their family background, or financial incentives.

BattleCorp

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

What do you mean "blaming all the stuff you listed". That was a list of social problems in the traveller community. The fact that you interpreted that as a defence of travellers makes me question if a reasonable exchange of views is possible, because it seems likely that people aren't even reading posts at this stage.

Social problems that travellers have absolutely no interest in addressing.

Now who isn't reading what was written. I said you appeared to be excusing their behaviour, I didn't say you were defending them.

BattleCorp

BattleCorp wrote: »

Now who isn't reading what was written. I said you appeared to be excusing their behaviour, I didn't say you were defending them.

Right. At this point I can't engage with you anymore. There is no reasonable way that mentioning serious criminality, for example, can be interpreted as excusing traveller behaviour.

We all have limited time, most of us are presumably in work, and theres just no point wasting time replying to you any further.

BattleCorp

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Engage children in specific educational programmes at a young age, and diversion programmes (such as working with horses and doing associated apprenticeships) later in their education.

At present, the educational system is passively allowing traveller children to drift, and a new focus has to be more prescriptive, whether that be by mandating participation for children with specific socio economic problems in their family background, or financial incentives.

And how do you engage the children in specific educational programmes? You are going to have to tackle the parents to allow them to participate. And the parents don't want them to participate.

There needs to be a big stick approach taken to the behaviour of traveller parents. They need to be forced to send their children to school.

Financial incentives don't work with them. I've seen financial incentives at work first hand. They send the kids to school, get the few bob, and then let the kids drop out.

Ruraldweller56

BattleCorp wrote: »

And how do you engage the children in specific educational programmes? You are going to have to tackle the parents to allow them to participate. And the parents don't want them to participate.

There needs to be a big stick approach taken to the behaviour of traveller parents. They need to be forced to send their children to school.

Financial incentives don't work with them. I've seen financial incentives at work first hand. They send the kids to school, get the few bob, and then let the kids drop out.

We all need a to sit down and decide what we want.

They don't want integrate. Fair enough. Our system isn't perfect. They don't want to partake, so be it.

A parallel society. Something like the Amish in the USA. They keep to themselves and pay for their own ****.

No more handouts.

I don't see why they should be able to have it both ways.

splinter65

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Engage children in specific educational programmes at a young age, and diversion programmes (such as working with horses and doing associated apprenticeships) later in their education.

At present, the educational system is passively allowing traveller children to drift, and a new focus has to be more prescriptive, whether that be by mandating participation for children with specific socio economic problems in their family background, or financial incentives.

I’m wondering do you even know any Travellers at this stage.
The vast majority of Travellers see their children’s attendance at school as a sort of a hurdle to be dealt with. Like having to have car insurance and tax. And the new regulations about owning horses.
In particular they resent every single cent of expense that comes from having to send the children to school. Uniforms books lunch money, school transport...every thing has to be paid for by the state via BTSCFA, School Transport Grant, Medical Card entitlement to free school books and now the hot lunch scheme.
This is on top of sometimes in excess of €13000 per year in child benefit alone.
And still they don’t want them to go. I don’t know what else you want the state to do. Maybe you can explain?

PostWoke

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Is it your contention that family and home life are not relevant to personality development and a child's future prospects?

What are you talking about? My argument is THE POLAR OPPOSITE, that home life is dictating their behaviour and it doesn't matter how progressive their schooling is in the end.

Is this a troll account, seriously?

nkl12xtw5goz70

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Can you demonstrate where I have defended travellers in this thread? I have simply stopped short of tarring every traveller with the one brush, and pointed out some objective facts, such as what does or does not constitute cruelty against a horse.

Every time anyone criticizes a Traveller, you use numerous diversionary tactics to deflect responsibility away from the individual in question — even engaging in a protracted, tortuous back-and-forth over what does and does not constitute cruelty to animals. If Margaret Cash were keeping a lion and three tigers in her back garden, I'm sure you'd find some way to excuse her of any wrongdoing.

You and others are too hysterical to be capable of distinguishing between defending travellers and simply observing facts in a fairly disinterested way. You are so het up about this woman that you perceive any slight dissent as some kind of PC defence of everything to do with Cash. In short, you're unable to engage rationally, such is your emotional investment in hating this stranger.

I'm not "hysterical" and I don't "hate" Margaret Cash — but I'm aware that your smug stance of being the only one on the thread capable of rational engagement, while characterizing everyone else as motivated by hysteria and personal animus, is both condescending and disingenuous. In reality, you're just employing Robert J. Stone Jr.'s fabled approach of "Admit nothing, deny everything, launch counterattack."

Ruraldweller56

Kelsey Petite Buggy wrote: »

Every time anyone criticizes a Traveller, you use numerous diversionary tactics to deflect responsibility away from the individual in question — even engaging in a protracted, tortuous back-and-forth over what does and does not constitute cruelty to animals. If Margaret Cash were keeping a lion and three tigers in her back garden, I'm sure you'd find some way to excuse her of any wrongdoing.



I'm not "hysterical" and I don't "hate" Margaret Cash — but I'm aware that your smug stance of being the only one on the thread capable of rational engagement, while characterizing everyone else as motivated by hysteria and personal animus, is both condescending and disingenuous. In reality, you're just employing Robert J. Stone Jr.'s fabled approach of "Admit nothing, deny everything, launch counterattack."

The question I have is why. What are they hoping to gain? By defending the indefensible?

I've came across my share of extreme libs/lefties but this is extreme by anyone's standards.

PostWoke

Ruraldweller56 wrote: »

The question I have is why. What are they hoping to gain? By defending the indefensible?

I've came across my share of extreme libs/lefties but this is extreme by anyone's standards.

It makes them look good. That's about it. We all acknowledge I would assume, that we'd rather not be talking about this, that there is an ugliness to speaking against our fellow man. So they choose the very easy road, it makes them look great and it comes with a free high-horse. :pac:

Ruraldweller56

PostWoke wrote: »

It makes them look good. That's about it. We all acknowledge I would assume, that we'd rather not be talking about this, that there is an ugliness to speaking against our fellow man. So they choose the very easy road, it makes them look great and it comes with a free high-horse. :pac:

Ya I know. But it just seems so disingenuous.

PostWoke

Ruraldweller56 wrote: »

Ya I know. But it just seems so disingenuous.

Because it is. The people in question all have empty 'guest' bedrooms in their homes they could easily give over to a homeless person with HAP so they could get back on their feet.

But those bedrooms will stay empty.

punisher5112

If I'd have a spare bedroom, I'd turn it into a man cave..... I'm not living with strangers....

PostWoke

punisher5112 wrote: »

If I'd have a spare bedroom, I'd turn it into a man cave..... I'm not living with strangers....

Well, strangers might not want to live with you either :pac:

A large percentage of housing these days is house shares, even owner occupied house shares. It's awkward but such is the housing market right now.

Kermit.de.frog

tuxy wrote: »

I see that's a present for just one of the kids.

Lovely mother.

punisher5112

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I see that's a present for just one of the kids.

Lovely mother.

No they will all get a pony .....

She is the mother that keeps on giving and producing under tax payer funding....

Is there anyone any good at doing a song or poem or something catchyy ..

Bratzabrata

eurokev wrote: »

Was just on Margaret Cash's Facebook and she put up a post reminding us, that just this time last year, she gave an impassioned speech on homelessness outside the gates of the dail and to never give up on fighting to get our home,

Such a strong woman, who now has her home which has a new addition - a little horse, no less - a present she got her son for his birthday.

Inspirational stuff to see on a Friday, when I'm about to head home after a 60odd hour week

i like it wrolciem jhfud

sbsquarepants

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I see that's a present for just one of the kids.

Lovely mother.

I'm no fan of hers, and it's a stupid fúcing present, but you do you understand the concept of birthday presents? You don't dole them out (see what i done there:D) on a one for everyone in the audience basis. They do tend to be for the birthday boy or girl.

Gatling

sbsquarepants wrote: »

You don't dole them out (see what i done there:D) on a one for everyone in the audience basis. They do tend to be for the birthday boy or girl.

Ah but she has another 6 birthday presents to dole out so it's quite possible she will need a stable built for the potential 7 horses to be given as birthday presents this year

Roger Hassenforder

Gatling wrote: »

Ah but she has another 6 birthday presents to dole out so it's quite possible she will need a stable built for the potential 7 horses to be given as birthday presents this year

Theres no way someone could have the audacity to demand the state provide culturally appropriate paddocks and stables for their horses.

Its inconceivable.

Roger Hassenforder

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I'm no fan of hers, and it's a stupid fúcing present, but you do you understand the concept of birthday presents? You don't dole them out (see what i done there:D) on a one for everyone in the audience basis. They do tend to be for the birthday boy or girl.

My youngest has asked for a giraffe for Christmas. I can fit a small giraffe in my semi-d garden, but I hope she doesnt look for a rhino or gnu next year

splinter65

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I'm no fan of hers, and it's a stupid fúcing present, but you do you understand the concept of birthday presents? You don't dole them out (see what i done there:D) on a one for everyone in the audience basis. They do tend to be for the birthday boy or girl.

Are you insane? This is obscene. This is animal cruelty. Why doesn’t she buy the child a lion cub for Christmas too? Owning a horse, one horse, costs at least €100 per week. Are you happy for her to get €700 extra per week to keep her children’s horses??

splinter65

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Theres no way someone could have the audacity to demand the state provide culturally appropriate paddocks and stables for their horses.

Its inconceivable.

Well it’s working out well for the demanders here in Thurles.

It wasnt me123

splinter65 wrote: »

Well it’s working out well for the demanders here in Thurles.

I thought those houses were still empty as the county council wouldn't provide stables or land or both, I can't remember.

The whole shower should be moved on and put other needy families in the houses.

Only in ireland could 1.7 million in houses sit idle while waiting for Travellers to make up their mind will they stay or will they go

sbsquarepants

splinter65 wrote: »

Are you insane? This is obscene. This is animal cruelty. Why doesn’t she buy the child a lion cub for Christmas too? Owning a horse, one horse, costs at least €100 per week. Are you happy for her to get €700 extra per week to keep her children’s horses??

I think you're missing my point.

The poster was complaining that the present was for only 1 of the kids - i'm just saying that's how birthday presents work.

I think anyone that keeps a horse in a housing estate should be shot, It's not in any way a suitable location. Although more so for the other residents sake than the horses, they'll be perfectly fine.

splinter65

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I think you're missing my point.

The poster was complaining that the present was for only 1 of the kids - i'm just saying that's how birthday presents work.

I think anyone that keeps a horse in a housing estate should be shot, It's not in any way a suitable location. Although more so for the other residents sake than the horses, they'll be perfectly fine.

A horse in a semi d back garden last night in the pouring rain was perfectly fine? Where did the horse shelter? I hope you don’t have any pets. This is disgusting.

Ruraldweller56

splinter65 wrote: »

A horse in a semi d back garden last night in the pouring rain was perfectly fine? Where did the horse shelter? I hope you don’t have any pets. This is disgusting.

Give a read through the thread. We already had someone fervently and vehemently defending her decision to keep a pony in her back lawn.

splinter65

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

I thought those houses were still empty as the county council wouldn't provide stables or land or both, I can't remember.

The whole shower should be moved on and put other needy families in the houses.

Only in ireland could 1.7 million in houses sit idle while waiting for Travellers to make up their mind will they stay or will they go

The deal has been agreed with the houses and the horses. The horses will be staying on the bridge with proper stables.
The houses are still empty because the council won’t hand over the keys until Travellers parked illegally on the side of the road in front of the houses are gone.
They are refusing to move until they too are given houses and stables and land.
It was going back to court on Wednesday this week but I haven’t heard how it turned out.

Deebles McBeebles

Most recent articles on it:

https://extra.ie/2019/09/26/news/irish-news/traveller-build-site-tipperary

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/travellers-committal-application-adjourned-for-a-week-1.4030137

the couple was getting power from a cable that went across the road that was linked into an ESB unit. This was particularly hazardous and there was a risk of electrocution and fire, counsel said.

“Why won’t the council give me a house,” she said, adding that bringing her before the court and or sending her to prison was a “waste of the government’s money.”.

Ha Long Bay

Deebles McBeebles wrote: »

Most recent articles on it:

https://extra.ie/2019/09/26/news/irish-news/traveller-build-site-tipperary

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/travellers-committal-application-adjourned-for-a-week-1.4030137

Can't get over that article.

"‘I know I am living in an unsafe place,’ she said. ‘I am on a bend in the road in a caravan. A car could easily come in and kill us.’ She said she, her husband William and their young baby had been offered a house in what she described as a drug-ridden estate in Thurles, and a place near another Traveller family, who had been involved in a 40-year feud with her husband’s relatives."

"She went on: ‘I’m not asking for a mansion on a hilltop. I just want a suitable home… I would pay rent.

‘…I know there will be people looking in disgust, thinking, “I am working day in, day out for a mortgage.”

"‘But, I’m not being racist, they are taking in all different types. All I want is a house.’ Judge Richard Humphreys observed that the ‘system doesn’t really work like that’ and advised Mrs McCarthy to obtain legal advice urgently, ‘because your liberty is in jeopardy here’."

KrustyUCC

It's mad alright

Loving the part of not taking a house near another Traveller family, who had been involved in a 40-year feud with her husband’s relatives

Reviews and Books Galore

piplip87 wrote: »

It's not traveller bashing. The fact this woman gets over 50k a year in benefits while having to pay maybe 160 quid a month on rent, medical bills all paid etc.... For anybody working to be left with that after rent/mortgage/medical bills they would be earning in excess of 70k.... The fact she is better off financially than thousands of people working is wrong. Every effort should be made to high light how unequal Irish Society really is to the middle class

As the median salary is 36,000 euro, it might be millions unfortunately.

splinter65

john4321 wrote: »

Can't get over that article.

"‘I know I am living in an unsafe place,’ she said. ‘I am on a bend in the road in a caravan. A car could easily come in and kill us.’ She said she, her husband William and their young baby had been offered a house in what she described as a drug-ridden estate in Thurles, and a place near another Traveller family, who had been involved in a 40-year feud with her husband’s relatives."

"She went on: ‘I’m not asking for a mansion on a hilltop. I just want a suitable home… I would pay rent.

‘…I know there will be people looking in disgust, thinking, “I am working day in, day out for a mortgage.”

"‘But, I’m not being racist, they are taking in all different types. All I want is a house.’ Judge Richard Humphreys observed that the ‘system doesn’t really work like that’ and advised Mrs McCarthy to obtain legal advice urgently, ‘because your liberty is in jeopardy here’."

I know Elizabeth “lily” very well and she is easily one of the most hard headed people I’ve ever known.
He’d ( the husband) be gone out of there in the morning only for her.
They were living quite happily and comfortably in that mobile in his mothers yard about 4 miles from there until she realized about 12 months ago that a sister of hers that she doesn’t talk to was getting one of the 6 houses.
Insanely jealous she wedged their mobile onto the already overcrowded bridge along with yet another insanely jealous sister (Winnie).
The reference to the family from Galway is concerning a cousin of her husband (whose getting one of the 6 houses) who was reared on the bridge and only lived in Galway for a couple of years before returning with husband and 5 kids about 3 years ago.
The old woman she refers to is her husbands granny.
The single man is her husbands uncle recently separated with 5 kids.

blanch152

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Engage children in specific educational programmes at a young age, and diversion programmes (such as working with horses and doing associated apprenticeships) later in their education.

At present, the educational system is passively allowing traveller children to drift, and a new focus has to be more prescriptive, whether that be by mandating participation for children with specific socio economic problems in their family background, or financial incentives.

That is pretty unfair on the education system.

The traveller culture doesn't place any value on education, especially for girls, and they are removed from education as soon as possible. Very few make it as far as Junior Cert and they are married off at 16. When the education system follows up, they are told she is gone to stay with her aunt, or somesuch nonsense and the frustrated education welfare officers are stymied.

Traveller culture is horribly misogynist, nearly on a par with some African and Islamic cultures. It is incumbent on traveller leaders to lead on these issues and erase the misogynist and homophobic elements of their culture.

punisher5112

blanch152 wrote: »

That is pretty unfair on the education system.

The traveller culture doesn't place any value on education, especially for girls, and they are removed from education as soon as possible. Very few make it as far as Junior Cert and they are married off at 16. When the education system follows up, they are told she is gone to stay with her aunt, or somesuch nonsense and the frustrated education welfare officers are stymied.

Traveller culture is horribly misogynist, nearly on a par with some African and Islamic cultures. It is incumbent on traveller leaders to lead on these issues and erase the misogynist and homophobic elements of their culture.

Isn't it amazing though that they all know how to claim welfare and wouldn't miss it in a heartbeat....

They know every single method, trick and scam going.

If the mother and father want kids allowance then kids must be in school.

PostWoke

blanch152 wrote: »

That is pretty unfair on the education system.

The traveller culture doesn't place any value on education

He's been told, he just isn't interested in reality.

nkl12xtw5goz70

blanch152 wrote: »

The traveller culture doesn't place any value on education, especially for girls, and they are removed from education as soon as possible. Very few make it as far as Junior Cert and they are married off at 16.

Travellers take their children out of school at an early age to ensure they don't become attracted to non-Travellers and develop notions about marrying outside the insular cult in which they were raised. If Traveller children went on to third level and continued to mingle with and pair off with their peers, Traveller culture would soon disappear.

freshpopcorn

Kelsey Petite Buggy wrote: »

Travellers take their children out of school at an early age to ensure they don't become attracted to non-Travellers and develop notions about marrying outside the insular cult in which they were raised. If Traveller children went on to third level and continued to mingle with and pair off with their peers, Traveller culture would soon disappear.

I'm not fully sure but I think Margaret said it was because she didn't want her kids future ruined by drugs because they are so common in the settled community.

PostWoke

Kelsey Petite Buggy wrote: »

Travellers take their children out of school at an early age to ensure they don't become attracted to non-Travellers and develop notions about marrying outside the insular cult in which they were raised. If Traveller children went on to third level and continued to mingle with and pair off with their peers, Traveller culture would soon disappear.

... is this you trying to defend inbreeding, or are you joking?

nkl12xtw5goz70

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I'm not fully sure but I think Margaret said it was because she didn't want her kids future ruined by drugs because they are so common in the settled community.

As if there are no drugs in the Traveller community!

Eric Cartman

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I'm not fully sure but I think Margaret said it was because she didn't want her kids future ruined by drugs because they are so common in the settled community.

god forbid one of her sons would get a leaving cert and spend some of his sallary on hash, much better he marries his cousin at 16 and beats her round the place because of chronic alcoholism.

splinter65

Kelsey Petite Buggy wrote: »

Travellers take their children out of school at an early age to ensure they don't become attracted to non-Travellers and develop notions about marrying outside the insular cult in which they were raised. If Traveller children went on to third level and continued to mingle with and pair off with their peers, Traveller culture would soon disappear.

This ^^^. Social media and smart phones and modern celebrity culture are doing terrible damage anyway.
The Kardashian’s do what they want wear what they want have sex with anyone they fancy and have babies with no husbands. And there are no consequences.
Why then does Mary-Ellen have to marry willie and go and live with him in a mobile on a halting site?

nkl12xtw5goz70

PostWoke wrote: »

... is this you trying to defend inbreeding, or are you joking?

I'm not defending it.

I believe that Traveller children should be encouraged to continue their education and be free to marry whomever they choose, ideally at an age when they are mature enough to make a free and informed choice.

sbsquarepants

splinter65 wrote: »

A horse in a semi d back garden last night in the pouring rain was perfectly fine? Where did the horse shelter? I hope you don’t have any pets. This is disgusting.

I don't know where you're getting that i somehow support this?

Horses don't belong in housing estates, end of. Mainly because they are a danger to other people - obviously the damn thing needs a shelter!

PostWoke

Wonder where the horse is tonight, in this heavy rain.

Serious storm on our way Thursday too.

I'll bet aul' Marge has this all under control.