Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

BonnieSituation

fash wrote: »

https://twitter.com/BrigidLaffan/status/1181234233047687169

And another reason why Johnson can't go no deal: major land owners would never forgive Tories for loss of land and the consequent change in owner profile of land across UK.

(Would add that apparently UK has the most unchanged land ownership in Europe- with ownership continuing from Norman times in many cases).

Sorry, again to just make the tweet link live.

Infini

CelticRambler wrote: »

Yeah, but "would never forgive" until after it's happened. The Tory heartland is still heavily populated by ostriches.

I think another way of describing it is that the Tory Party that they voted and supported is dead, infiltrated and gutted from the inside out by the likes of Moggles European Troll Group and utter corrupt and complete spoofers like Boris.

Brexit is kinda reminding me a bit of that Die Hard 4 film where the whole sequence of event's was setup to cause a "firesale" in assets and Brexit really echos that. Crash the country out in an excercise off self defeat then gut the place for anything and everything of value: Farms, currency, businesses all for self interested individuals to basically profit and get rich off the backs of regular people.

The sad thing is that the only way they can stop this is to stop voting for Tories, vote lib dem or green but absolutely do not vote for the Tories they're the same as the Brexit/Troll party: out for themselves not their voters.

Seth Brundle

Sammy Wilson feeling the stress obviously...

How times have changed. Its now a case of ‘Dublin Says No’. The DUP has worked with the prime minister to place a reasonable proposal on the table. It may not be perfect but it’s a fair deal. It recognises our unique situation and respects the referendum result.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/dup-accuses-government-of-dublin-says-no-mentality-1.4042951

Jizique

Infini wrote: »

I think another way of describing it is that the Tory Party that they voted and supported is dead, infiltrated and gutted from the inside out by the likes of Moggles European Troll Group and utter corrupt and complete spoofers like Boris.

Brexit is kinda reminding me a bit of that Die Hard 4 film where the whole sequence of event's was setup to cause a "firesale" in assets and Brexit really echos that. Crash the country out in an excercise off self defeat then gut the place for anything and everything of value: Farms, currency, businesses all for self interested individuals to basically profit and get rich off the backs of regular people.

The sad thing is that the only way they can stop this is to stop voting for Tories, vote lib dem or green but absolutely do not vote for the Tories they're the same as the Brexit/Troll party: out for themselves not their voters.

https://mobile.twitter.com/nicktolhurst/status/1181257694151360513

Culling all cattle in Northern Ireland (chicken, sheep and pigs uncertain) is a bit hard core

jimmycrackcorm

threeball wrote: »

That hasn't reduced the amount of DUP voting idiot farmers in the north though so they're unlikely to change. There was a guy on a brexit documentary on RTE one night. DUP to the core. Ex RUC. Used to live in fear of being shot driving down the lane of his farm yet was an ardent Brexiteer and was happy to see his farm go under if thats what it took. Thats the kind of simpleton you're dealing with here. The North and even the UK is full of lads like that.

What's really astounding and quite unfathomable, is if you consider Arlene Fosters experience of having seen her father shot, that she would in any way consider and plan that had the potential to disrupt peace.

AC plan that might even remotely introduce an incident where some other policeman's daughter has to go through that.

It's just taking so much that the for of the DUP is bigoted to an incredible degree.

CelticRambler

fash wrote: »

Fully accept that- more something that a Tory will need to consider the consequences of his actions - and the consequences could be quite severe.

For tonight's homework: please provide examples from recent years of Tories demonstrating that they understand the consequences of their actions.

jimmycrackcorm

threeball wrote: »

That hasn't reduced the amount of DUP voting idiot farmers in the north though so they're unlikely to change. There was a guy on a brexit documentary on RTE one night. DUP to the core. Ex RUC. Used to live in fear of being shot driving down the lane of his farm yet was an ardent Brexiteer and was happy to see his farm go under if thats what it took. Thats the kind of simpleton you're dealing with here. The North and even the UK is full of lads like that.

What's really astounding and quite unfathomable, is if you consider Arlene Fosters experience of having seen her father shot, that she would in any way consider any plan that had the potential to disrupt peace.

A plan that might even remotely result in an incident where some other policeman's daughter has to go through that.

It's just telling so much that the the DUP is bigoted to the core to an incredible degree.

Stop moaning ffs

Speaking of the DUP it’s great to see people in Britain finally waking up to them via the bribe and the fact that they’re holding this whole thing up.

https://twitter.com/haggis_uk/status/1181266195196104704?s=21

fash

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Sorry, again to just make the tweet link live.

Done!

prunudo

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Speaking of the DUP it’s great to see people in Britain finally waking up to them via the bribe and the fact that they’re holding this whole thing up.

https://twitter.com/haggis_uk/status/1181266195196104704?s=21

Will miss Bercow when he leaves.
Not sure the name of the government minister who replied but as usual they don't say anything or answer the question, just tries to be smart with a put down. Maybe it was always the case but this government seem have taken it to a whole new level.

maebee

prunudo wrote: »

Will miss Bercow when he leaves.

Tubridy has him on the LLS this coming Friday night. I doubt he'll be letting any cats out of the bag as he's still in the job he thought he'd left .

Hurrache

Desperation creeping in, the Kilcooney account is always good for a laugh too.

https://twitter.com/KilclooneyJohn/status/1181235095878942721

Capt'n Midnight

CelticRambler wrote: »

We've been over this before. Freedom of movement has nothing to do with people getting on planes/boats/trains. It is the freedom to "move house" - i.e. to live in another country as if it were your own.

Terms and Conditions apply though.

EU citizens can be sent home if they are unemployed for more than six months and haven't yet qualified for full residency

Unless the country you are in lets you stay longer. Which the CTA does.



Sometimes I think you could fight fire with fire by getting Leavers to vote Remain for the wrong reasons.

Spread the message that blocking EU freedom of movement won't reduce immigration at all despite May's utterances to the contrary.


Immigration from Eastern Europe will be replaced by more immigration from the subcontinent and China. And that's before you consider that India wants lots more visa for any trade deal.

Chinese students mostly go home.
Ryanair means Eastern Europes can go home, for the weekend.
People from the subcontinent tend to stay.

boggerman1

So the British government have "secret" plans to cull all the dairy cows up in the north.have no sympathy whatsoever for any farmer up there that votes dup and voted leave.u reap what u sow.
I see John Taylor won't give him the pleasure of calling him lord whatever he thinks he is,thinks rural Ireland is for the new deal.well John I'm a farmer and as stated above I don't care what happens ye up there

Hurrache

boggerman1 wrote: »

So the British government have "secret" plans to cull all the dairy cows up in the north.have no sympathy whatsoever for any farmer up there that votes dup and voted leave.u reap what u sow.

I don't think it's a gov plan, it's been said by farming organisations and the dairy council that there's no alternative otherwise.

Capt'n Midnight

fash wrote: »

https://twitter.com/BrigidLaffan/status/1181234233047687169

And another reason why Johnson can't go no deal: major land owners would never forgive Tories for loss of land and the consequent change in owner profile of land across UK.

(Would add that apparently UK has the most unchanged land ownership in Europe- with ownership continuing from Norman times in many cases).

432 landowners own 50% of the privately owned land in Scotland.

BTW a long time ago Grove* promised** that the UK would match the £3Bn that farmers get from the EU.


* no relation to the Wanderly Wagon character Sneaky Snake.

**depending on meeting certain "environmental" conditions

Jim2007

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

TImmigration from Eastern Europe will be replaced by more immigration from the subcontinent and China. And that's before you consider that India wants lots more visa for any trade deal.

Your not thinking like a BREXITEER: At least they won't be white, educated and know their rights, so I can feel superior to them.

Capt'n Midnight

Jim2007 wrote: »

Your not thinking like a BREXITEER: At least they won't be white, educated and know their rights, so I can feel superior to them.

But they'd be Catholics so smugness restored.


Needs more slogans

Do you want a Polish plumber or a Punjabi one ?

hoody

Thought this was interesting, it purports to give the current view from the UK government.

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/10/how-number-10-view-the-state-of-the-negotiations/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

They talk in terms of individual (Varadkar / Barnier etc) rather than collective motivation on the EU side, but if it's to be believed (and it might well be nonsense), it's full throttle for No Deal once the latest proposals founder at the end of this week.

An Ciarraioch

hoody wrote: »

Thought this was interesting, it purports to give the current view from the UK government.

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/10/how-number-10-view-the-state-of-the-negotiations/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

They talk in terms of individual (Varadkar / Barnier etc) rather than collective motivation on the EU side, but if it's to be believed (and it might well be nonsense), it's full throttle for No Deal once the latest proposals founder at the end of this week.

Odd, link shows up when I quote the post, but not otherwise?

liamtech

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Odd, link shows up when I quote the post, but not otherwise?

There are quite a few people in Paris and Berlin who would like to discuss our offer but Merkel and Macron won’t push Barnier unless Ireland says it wants to negotiate. Those who think Merkel will help us are deluded. As things stand, Dublin will do nothing, hoping we offer more, then at the end of this week they may say ‘OK, let’s do a Northern Ireland only backstop with a time limit’, which is what various players have been hinting at, then we’ll say No, and that will probably be the end.

- from the Blog Linked

Do we really think a NI Only backstop With a Time Limit will be pushed by Ireland? I seriously doubt it - a time limited backstop is not a back stop

Hurrache

It's The Spectator, a mouthpiece for conservative propaganda.

Kermit.de.frog

hoody wrote: »

Thought this was interesting, it purports to give the current view from the UK government.

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/10/how-number-10-view-the-state-of-the-negotiations/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

They talk in terms of individual (Varadkar / Barnier etc) rather than collective motivation on the EU side, but if it's to be believed (and it might well be nonsense), it's full throttle for No Deal once the latest proposals founder at the end of this week.

That's what's called fishing - designed to sow discord among the other negotiating party.

I would take none of that seriously to be honest.

P.S Varadkar said only a couple of days a go he would meet Johnson at the earliest opportunity.

liamtech

Hurrache wrote: »

It's The Spectator, a mouthpiece for conservative propaganda.

Of course, its like another Toryograph - but unless the response from 10 Downing St is a total fabrication, then it seems they are looking for No Deal - but also expect ireland to throw a last roll of the dice

They expect this - but i dont see it happening? does anyone

briany

Why doesn't Corbyn go to Brussels and negotiate an alternative deal? I know that the opposition isn't exactly on the same page with Brexit, but this alternative deal would be an insurance policy. It would be there if Johnson and co. attempted some subterfuge on the current plan of asking for another extension with a view to holding a GE. The opposition - Lib Dems and SNP included - must think rationally, here. They need an emergency switch to press if and when prospects of an extension fall through and they're left staring down the barrel of no-deal.

CelticRambler

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Immigration from Eastern Europe will be replaced by more immigration from the subcontinent and China. And that's before you consider that India wants lots more visa for any trade deal.

Wasn't there an analysis of referendum voting going around that showed that the Asian community voted Leave with the express intention of curbing EU migration so there'd be more jobs for their cousins, nephews & nieces "back home"?

Not sure your strategy would work.

CelticRambler

briany wrote: »

Why doesn't Corbyn go to Brussels and negotiate an alternative deal? I know that the opposition isn't exactly on the same page with Brexit, but this alternative deal would be an insurance policy. It would be there if Johnson and co. attempted some subterfuge on the current plan of asking for another extension with a view to holding a GE. The opposition - Lib Dems and SNP included - must think rationally, here. They need an emergency switch to press if and when prospects of an extension fall through and they're left staring down the barrel of no-deal.

There isn't time to negotiate any deal, so no point tipping your hand before you need to. Corbyn et al can afford to let things evolve (il)logically: let Johnson fail to agree any changes to the WA, and make sure he owns his failure; let Johnson ask for an extension, and make sure he looks like a puppet on a string; call a VoNC and replace Johnson with a caretaker PM; temporaryPM asks the EU for an extension (or confirms Johnson's request) with a promise that the next negotiating team will bring functioning neurons to Brussels, and behave like modern Europeans.

CelticRambler

CelticRambler wrote: »

Wasn't there an analysis of referendum voting going around that showed that the Asian community voted Leave with the express intention of curbing EU migration so there'd be more jobs for their cousins, nephews & nieces "back home"?

Not sure your strategy would work.

I think that the Asians were more self interested in the fact that many of the central Europeans were rivals for many of the trades that the Asians were established in England.


In addition to leaving "space" for their extended families.

Hurrache

Cummings has been busy with The Spectator today
https://twitter.com/JGForsyth/status/1181302410901372930?s=19

And there's this
[url]

https://twitter.com/adamfleming/status/1181302738719793154?s=19[/url]

briany

CelticRambler wrote: »

There isn't time to negotiate any deal, so no point tipping your hand before you need to. Corbyn et al can afford to let things evolve (il)logically: let Johnson fail to agree any changes to the WA, and make sure he owns his failure; let Johnson ask for an extension, and make sure he looks like a puppet on a string; call a VoNC and replace Johnson with a caretaker PM; temporaryPM asks the EU for an extension (or confirms Johnson's request) with a promise that the next negotiating team will bring functioning neurons to Brussels, and behave like modern Europeans.

The deal wouldn't have to be significantly different. It could be as simple as asking the EU if what was proposed in Dec 2017 was still an option, i.e. the NI-only backstop.

Can't be too careful with Johnson. He may not have any real ideas how to square the circle of the WA, but I'm still concerned that he and his cohorts are working around the clock to come with ways of getting around the Benn act. Well, people on his side have pretty much confirmed this, so Corbyn sitting back sounds unwise to me.