Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

Capt'n Midnight

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

In fact, had a committed Remainer been leader of Labour in June 2016, the current debacle wouldn't exist. Yet again, Corbyn was watery at best. His lack of commitment was a decisive factor in Leave's win.

Watch the first 20 seconds to see that lack of commitment. He could have easily swung that 1.6%

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36506163/corbyn-i-m-seven-out-of-10-on-eu

This whole Brexit mess happened on his watch.

Goodbye working time directive.
Goodbye EU health and safety.

He's betting all of that on a long shot accumulator.

IF labour win the next election and
IF they can get a new deal with the EU with different unicorns and
IF they win a referendum
Then they can block EU citizens from taking UK jobs and nationalise failing state industries

But only until the Tories get back into power and swing the pendulum back until Labour get in again.

Bannasidhe

ballsymchugh wrote: »

it probably is, as there's no hope of labour getting a majority after an election unless something freaky happens. just like the lib dems, the pre election promise won't make it out of any coalition/confidence and supply discussion. i doubt Corbyn would make it out the far side of them either tbh.

but all the research will show that labour leavers won't support any other party. they're more die hard labour supporters than leavers. labour will lose more to the lib dems than they will to brexit or tories.

I can't speak for Corbyn's motivation and it's been 30 years since I spoke to the man but it wouldn't surprise me if he believes he is genuinely putting the needs of his country above party politics by offering both sides in a very divided country an option they can (grudgingly) agree on enough to break the deadlock.

The Tories are only courting the Leavers.
The Lib Dems are only courting the Remainers.
If either one wins millions of people are going to feel very excluded.
Not a great way to lead a country imho.

The PM should try and find a consensus - not feed the divisions. Johnson and Swinton are uncompromising. Lack of compromise and hardline divisions are what led UK politics into it's current quagmire.
That and the cult of personality. Feck having a 'charismatic' leader. Charisma doesn't formulate good policy, it smiles at cameras and gives pithy soundbites.

Infini

lawred2 wrote: »

the self importance knows no bounds

Said it before and Ill say it again

Human Stupidity is the cancer of this existence.

And Brexit will be the biggest example of when Idiot's refuse to believe factual evidence, stubborn fools refuse to admit they're wrong, chancers and greedy parasites are allowed to get rich of malicious intent and those who put party and ideology before the common good would rather wreck their own country for their own Vainglory.

WE still have a few weeks yet though to go and if the court ruling skewers Boris for his suspending parliment we might see some hopeful movements to remove these cancerous muppets from power and maybe see some sense return but there's no chance of a deal at this stage IMO the only way this might chance is if both theres an extention and the Tories are kicked out of power. Both need to happen if there's any hope of a positive outcome because so long as these 2 things don't happen a crash out is very likely given the current cirsumstances.

Capt'n Midnight

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I can't speak for Corbyn's motivation and it's been 30 years since I spoke to the man but it wouldn't surprise me if he believes he is genuinely putting the needs of his country above party politics by offering both sides in a very divided country an option they can (grudgingly) agree on enough to break the deadlock.

Lib Dems are only going for a referendum,
unless they win a majority in a GE, which they could rightly view as winning a remain referendum.

Offering a choice ?

48.11% voted remain. We know exactly what they wanted.

The rest just need to agree on what they want.
And until more than 48.11% agree on the same achievable thing then under the UK FPTP system remain is the clear favourite.

ballsymchugh

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The PM should try and find a consensus - not feed the divisions. Johnson and Swinton are uncompromising. Lack of compromise and hardline divisions are what led UK politics into it's current quagmire.
That and the cult of personality. Feck having a 'charismatic' leader. Charisma doesn't formulate good policy, it smiles at cameras and gives pithy soundbites.

the cult of personality is why Corbyn is still where he is.

johnnyskeleton

J Mysterio wrote: »

Its about the future of the county. Its all at stake, but they are too cowardly to take a position for the sake of a few votes, which might be saved.

They have all the information on how damaging Brexit will be, of any type. This is a failure to lead. They are a disgrace.

Also their previous Brexit Red Lines (or tests as they called them, to disdinguish themselves from the Tories) included a red line that any brexit must have the same benefits as staying.

Thats clearly now not possible (that is to say, it was never possible but now the UK knows that) so what is the status of their previous, albeit vague, position on Brexit? Is it now just nothing?

I think Labour will lose all margingal voters to Lib Dem or Brexit party. What they are talking about now is basically resetting the Brexit clock and people dont want another 3 years of nonsense, and im not sure the EU would agree to it either

Bannasidhe

ballsymchugh wrote: »

the cult of personality is why Corbyn is still where he is.

There I have to disagree.

Corbyn is there because he is a socialist - he is the figurehead of the actually left in the internal struggle between the socialist left and 'new' labour's whigs mk II and no-one bar the grass roots thought he had a chance of winning the leadership. They were wrong.

Personality wise he's not exactly riveting.

People forget that there are actually still socialists* in the Labour Party - they were not in favour in New Labour, but they are there among the ordinary membership and for a very long time were just hanging in there out of loyalty to the party. Not me - I sent my membership card back to Kinnock, but I know a lot of them across the UK. They welcomed Corbyn because they hoped for a return to the politics of Attlee and away from the liberal whig ideology of Blair.

Corbyn has tried to expound on his policies because that is what he cares about but Brexit has sucked the air out of politics in the UK. It's a vampire.

This suits the Tories as they can shout and bang the Brexit drum and drown out everything else - particularly any examination of the real harm their policies have done to ordinary people.

The LibDems have found their rallying cry - and that's banging the Brexit drum too. But what other policies do they have? What will they do if they win a majority besides Remain? They talk a lot about the great tradition of the Whigs but leave out the parts about how the Whigs were the mill owners and industrialists who exploited the very workers the LP was formed to represent.
They throw out all the great concepts they believe in like Liberty and Equality. Well that's peachy Jo but what are you actually going to do to achieve these things? When you check her voting records there are a lot of qualifiers 'Jo Swinton almost always voted for equality'. The LibDems say they will reverse the Tory cuts to Welfare - but Swinton voted for the Bedroom Tax, voted against increasing welfare in line with increased prices, voted against any increase in illness and disability payments, voted against schemes to help combat youth unemployment and voted for cutting benefits.
Jo Swinton voted like a Tory.

Brexit is like our Treaty. You are either for it or against it - and when you look closely at the parties on either side there really isn't a huge ideological difference between them.

*I'm not talking about communists or Militant Faction/ Hatten and his mob. They were...*insert dismissive term for people pushing an agenda for their personal benefit*

quokula

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I can't speak for Corbyn's motivation and it's been 30 years since I spoke to the man but it wouldn't surprise me if he believes he is genuinely putting the needs of his country above party politics by offering both sides in a very divided country an option they can (grudgingly) agree on enough to break the deadlock.

The Tories are only courting the Leavers.
The Lib Dems are only courting the Remainers.
If either one wins millions of people are going to feel very excluded.
Not a great way to lead a country imho.

The PM should try and find a consensus - not feed the divisions. Johnson and Swinton are uncompromising. Lack of compromise and hardline divisions are what led UK politics into it's current quagmire.
That and the cult of personality. Feck having a 'charismatic' leader. Charisma doesn't formulate good policy, it smiles at cameras and gives pithy soundbites.

Well said. Corbyn has so often been the only adult in the room on this.

A soft Brexit negotiation (no unicorns, completely compatible with the withdrawal agreement, but with closer ties and custom union which the EU is completely open to) first of all, and a referendum to confirm that deal versus remaining.

That’s the absolute best case scenario the UK could possibly hope for. It amazes me the amount of criticism it receives when the only alternatives are either a completely ruinous hard Brexit, or promising to completely revoke which would basically silence more than half the electorate and destroy faith in politics there for years to come.

woohoo!!!

All of them are putting party before country. All of them are looking for the best way to maximise seats under FPTP whilst keeping the party together insofar as possible. All of them are chasing unicorns, have little understanding or really care about the issues that Brexit presents on this island. A hard Brexit will and needs to happen. It will accelerate a UI which will of course be a massive challenge but will finally remove Westminster interference. After that I don't care what they want.

listermint

Bannasidhe wrote: »

There I have to disagree.

Corbyn is there because he is a socialist - he is the figurehead of the actually left in the internal struggle between the socialist left and 'new' labour's whigs mk II and no-one bar the grass roots thought he had a chance of winning the leadership. They were wrong.

Personality wise he's not exactly riveting.

People forget that there are actually still socialists* in the Labour Party - they were not in favour in New Labour, but they are there among the ordinary membership and for a very long time were just hanging in there out of loyalty to the party. Not me - I sent my membership card back to Kinnock, but I know a lot of them across the UK. They welcomed Corbyn because they hoped for a return to the politics of Attlee and away from the liberal whig ideology of Blair.

Corbyn has tried to expound on his policies because that is what he cares about but Brexit has sucked the air out of politics in the UK. It's a vampire.

This suits the Tories as they can shout and bang the Brexit drum and drown out everything else - particularly any examination of the real harm their policies have done to ordinary people.

The LibDems have found their rallying cry - and that's banging the Brexit drum too. But what other policies do they have? What will they do if they win a majority besides Remain? They talk a lot about the great tradition of the Whigs but leave out the parts about how the Whigs were the mill owners and industrialists who exploited the very workers the LP was formed to represent.
They throw out all the great concepts they believe in like Liberty and Equality. Well that's peachy Jo but what are you actually going to do to achieve these things? When you check her voting records there are a lot of qualifiers 'Jo Swinton almost always voted for equality'. The LibDems say they will reverse the Tory cuts to Welfare - but Swinton voted for the Bedroom Tax, voted against increasing welfare in line with increased prices, voted against any increase in illness and disability payments, voted against schemes to help combat youth unemployment and voted for cutting benefits.
Jo Swinton voted like a Tory.

Brexit is like our Treaty. You are either for it or against it - and when you look closely at the parties on either side there really isn't a huge ideological difference between them.

*I'm not talking about communists or Militant Faction/ Hatten and his mob. They were...*insert dismissive term for people pushing an agenda for their personal benefit*

It's amusing and odd that you figure point Swindon for voting like a Tory. When Corbyns been voting like a Tory for 2 years.

He is basically the ladder for a Troy brexit . He wants brexit as much as the next erg member and all the cost of his members livelyhood. There's nothing socialist about that policy. It will destroy families and jobs. But case. Anyone that supports him is a nut case and no different to the rabid erg supporters.

Absymal performance and absymal finger pointing at other parties I think alot of internal reflection is needed in the momentum labour party.

VinLieger

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Watch the first 20 seconds to see that lack of commitment. He could have easily swung that 1.6%

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36506163/corbyn-i-m-seven-out-of-10-on-eu

This whole Brexit mess happened on his watch.

Goodbye working time directive.
Goodbye EU health and safety.

He's betting all of that on a long shot accumulator.

IF labour win the next election and
IF they can get a new deal with the EU with different unicorns and
IF they win a referendum
Then they can block EU citizens from taking UK jobs and nationalise failing state industries

But only until the Tories get back into power and swing the pendulum back until Labour get in again.

This is the arrogance of Corbyn I cannot comprehend, say he wins the election and they do leave Europe which is exactly what he wants. He institutes all of his glorious socialist ideas yet at the next election its entirely likely they will lose to the tories who will decimate everything he has done in that timeframe.

BUT then they also won't have the umbrella of base eu protections and laws so the Tories will take things even further than they have before.

And still there's the chance they wont win the coming election and the tories decimate things a couple of years earlier.

Its a level of arrogance that makes no sense.

Strazdas

woohoo!!! wrote: »

All of them are putting party before country. All of them are looking for the best way to maximise seats under FPTP whilst keeping the party together insofar as possible. All of them are chasing unicorns, have little understanding or really care about the issues that Brexit presents on this island. A hard Brexit will and needs to happen. It will accelerate a UI which will of course be a massive challenge but will finally remove Westminster interference. After that I don't care what they want.

I'd be inclined to agree. The only thing that can kill off the Brexit virus is it being seen to fail disastrously.

FrankPoll.

Who'd want to be in charge of implementing brexit Britain

None of them I'd say including Johnson

everyone of the leaders will kick it back to the voters

Leroy42

The issue I have with Corbyn is he is so ineffectual at outlining why Brexit is such a mess. He has failed to show up the lies of Brexit, failed to demand proper investigation into Leave campaign, failed to highlight the reality if what Brexit actually means for people.

Instead he has continued to hold this non committal position that either or is fine.

Grand that he thinks Brexit can be a success, so law out why the Tory version can't be and why No Deal is so damaging.

If he was doing that constantly banging the drum that No Deal would be a disaster, the acceptance of it as a actual policy would be far more questioned

FrankPoll.

Leroy42 wrote: »

The issue I have with Corbyn is he is so ineffectual at outlining why Brexit is such a mess. He has failed to show up the lies of Brexit, failed to demand proper investigation into Leave campaign, failed to highlight the reality if what Brexit actually means for people.

Instead he has continued to hold this non committal position that either or is fine.

Grand that he thinks Brexit can be a success, so law out why the Tory version can't be and why No Deal is so damaging.

If he was doing that constantly banging the drum that No Deal would be a disaster, the acceptance of it as a actual policy would be far more questioned

BJ was on the both sides of the fence before he got in

He's still on both sides of the fence now while claiming to be pushing for brexit

Russman

Strazdas wrote: »

I'd be inclined to agree. The only thing that can kill off the Brexit virus is it being seen to fail disastrously.

I'd agree that the only cure for Brexit is Brexit (as someone said in an earlier thread).

But its gone on so long now and positions are so entrenched, its really hard to see how reality will dawn on anyone. The population will be fed and mostly will believe that its all someone else's fault "....if only those Europeans and Irish would give us everything we want....."

There is just no compromise over there, its all absolutes from "we won, you lost, get over it" to "17.4m people voted for......" - there's never a mention of the 16 million that voted against or even how to strike a balance that tries to accommodate most of the people.
Even Corbyn is just as wedded to his hardline beliefs as any ERG member is to theirs, its just unfortunate that the ERG are frighteningly close to getting their objective, whereas JC is realistically miles away from ever reaching his (whatever it may be).

FrankPoll.

No deal brexit isn't close IMO, that's just political hot air

An extension is close

farmchoice

FrankPoll. wrote: »

No deal brexit isn't close IMO, that's just political hot air

An extension is close

absolutely and i have been saying this all along, it cant happen its just too mental.
BUT and its a big BUT, it is the default position as the uk government have to request an extension before they can get one so if by accident or design that fails to happen out they go.

the shocking reality is that Johnson will want to keep the tory party together above all else because the only thing worse in the world then a crash out is breaking up the Tories and both him and the party being out of power for a generation. so much much better to crash out and win an election and try and fix it then.

his only way out of this is to at the very least appear to be as gung ho as possible for a crash out, make it clear that he wont send any request despite the fact that he is legally obliged, in the hope that parliament once again move against him and arrange to send it themselves/remove him from power.

then he can go to the country as a true brexiteer.

VinLieger

FrankPoll. wrote: »

No deal brexit isn't close IMO, that's just political hot air

An extension is close

Proroguing parliament and pushing for an election that would have them no deal by default is not political hot air though.

Akrasia

Aaron banks has been cleared by the National Crime Agency according to LBC (can't find any other news link)

The NCA couldn't find any evidence that he broke any laws

Bannasidhe

listermint wrote: »

It's amusing and odd that you figure point Swindon for voting like a Tory. When Corbyns been voting like a Tory for 2 years.

He is basically the ladder for a Troy brexit . He wants brexit as much as the next erg member and all the cost of his members livelyhood. There's nothing socialist about that policy. It will destroy families and jobs. But case. Anyone that supports him is a nut case and no different to the rabid erg supporters.

Absymal performance and absymal finger pointing at other parties I think alot of internal reflection is needed in the momentum labour party.

It's not even slightly odd. I took the time to look at both their HoC voting records and a pattern is there for all to see. Only one of them consistently supported Tory policies.

The LinDems state they will roll back the cuts the Tories made to welfare. Jo Swinton voted along with the Tories in every single cut they made on welfare.
Corbyn voted against every single one.

That pattern repeats.

Apart from being a Remain party, I see nothing in Jo Swinton's voting record to indicate she is anything but a wet Tory at heart.

As for this : " Anyone that supports him is a nut case " - is that seriously the level of debate you want to go for?

Any one who wants a genuine left alternative is a "nut job" but meanwhile the Little Englanders are allowed to run roughshod over everyone.

listermint

Bannasidhe wrote: »

It's not even slightly odd. I took the time to look at both their HoC voting records and a pattern is there for all to see. Only one of them consistently supported Tory policies.

The LinDems state they will roll back the cuts the Tories made to welfare. Jo Swinton voted along with the Tories in every single cut they made on welfare.
Corbyn voted against every single one.

That pattern repeats.

Apart from being a Remain party, I see nothing in Jo Swinton's voting record to indicate she is anything but a wet Tory at heart.

As for this : " Anyone that supports him is a nut case " - is that seriously the level of debate you want to go for?

Any one who wants a genuine left alternative is a "nut job" but meanwhile the Little Englanders are allowed to run roughshod over everyone.

Genuine left ? Is that what you would define yourself as?

What specifically about crashing the country into its worst recession on purpose is genuine left.

And the hyperbole about Corbyn being able to negotiate a better deal.


There is nothing genuine left about the Labour party now, They are momentum, they might aswell be PBP party.

Labour have run roughshod over its members and the minority of leadership backed by a very wealthy man are to blame. Do you think this fella is doing it out of the leftness of his heart. Its always money.

Zubeneschamali

Strazdas wrote: »

The only thing that can kill off the Brexit virus is it being seen to fail disastrously.

No, it won't die. It will get worse, with more blame aimed outwards at the EU and inwards at foreigners, remainers, LibDems, immigrants, treacherous businessmen deserting the UK, people who look like they might be immigrants etc.: people stabbing Brexit in the back and betraying Great Britain to the bullying EU Empire.

A very dangerous course, a self reinforcing loop of xenophobia and isolationism leading to failure, leading to more xenophobia and isolationism.

Bannasidhe

VinLieger wrote: »

This is the arrogance of Corbyn I cannot comprehend, say he wins the election and they do leave Europe which is exactly what he wants. He institutes all of his glorious socialist ideas yet at the next election its entirely likely they will lose to the tories who will decimate everything he has done in that timeframe.

BUT then they also won't have the umbrella of base eu protections and laws so the Tories will take things even further than they have before.

And still there's the chance they wont win the coming election and the tories decimate things a couple of years earlier.

Its a level of arrogance that makes no sense.

Did you miss or are you deliberately ignoring the part about there being another referendum to decide if they leave with a deal or remain?

That bit where the electorate get to decide one way or another?

A deal which has been agree with the EU is put to the vote - not in Parliament where party politics trumps national interest but directly by the people. A plebiscite.

IF the electorate voted for the deal they leave.
If not, they remain.

You see, when the decision is left to the electorate it doesn't matter what Corbyn personally wants.

But apparently that is 'arrogance'.

My reading of that is different.
To me arrogance is saying We'll crash out and all you millions who voted to stay will have to suck it up because that is Boris' plan to teach the EU a jolly good lesson.
Arrogance is saying if Jo wins then we will remain and all you millions to voted to leave will have to suck it up because the LibDems won the most seats so there.

Both the Tories and the LibDems are running on policies of 'It's my way or the Highway'.

Corbyn is saying we will leave the ultimate choice to the people - having put an actual deal to them - and abide by their decision. And he's called arrogant?

Peregrinus

Exasperated as I am with Corbyn, it seems to me that Labour’s Brexit position is actually pretty rational.

- Wisely or otherwise, the UK voted to leave the EU. I don’t think, having held the referendum, Parliament can ignore the result because it isn’t one they expect or welcome.

- At the same time, they do have a responsibility to act in the best interests of the country. By their own choice, the referendum result isn’t binding on them. So, having reserved the final say to themselves, they do have a responsibility to exercise and act on their judgment as to what is in the best interests of the country; they can’t abdicate that by pointing to the referendum result.

- And they certainly can’t abdicate it to whichever group of chancers and shysters honks loudly enough about what version of Brexit is the True Brexit™ that the people voted for, whether they knew it or not at the time.

- It seems to me that a reasonable response to these circumstances is for Parliament to instruct the government to frame a workable proposal for Brexit on the best available terms, and then put those terms to the people for confirmation or rejection.

Remainers should welcome this; what the People’s Vote campaign has sought all along is a referendum on a concrete Brexit proposal, with Remain as the default option. Labour party policy is now to give them exactly what they have been demanding.

Leavers should welcome this; if the Will of the People™ is as they say it is, then in a confirmatory referendum Brexit on the best available terms should romp home by several lengths. And if it should turn out that the Will of the People™ is not as they say it is or as they want it to be, then the logic of their own position is that they should defer to the Will of the People™.

The problem is, although the position may be rational, the UK isn’t living in rational times. Labour’s proposal is being rejected by both sides not, I think, because it is inherently bad but because neither side trust Jeremy Corbyn.

And, if we’re honest, Corbyn is at least partly to blame for this. He has flatly refused to adopt or advocate for any concrete position on Brexit, the greatest political and public policy challenge to face the country in a generation. That’s an extraordinary failure of political leadership, at a time when the failure of the Tories to offer credible or even stable leadership creates a wide-open goal for any half-way competent opposition party. People conclude either that Corbyn really is as clueless about Brexit as he pretends to be (in which case why would you want him as PM right now?) or that he had definite views about Brexit which he conceals because he knows will be widely unacceptable (in which case people who care about Brexit will be very reluctant to vote for him). The upshot of all this is the he is squandering a chance to provide leadership, to bring the Labour party back to office, and to advance his broad agenda. His supporters must be bitterly disappointed in him.

FrancieBrady

Is the supreme court judgement definitely being handed down this AM?

LeinsterDub

Peregrinus wrote: »

Exasperated as I am with Corbyn, it seems to me that Labour’s Brexit position is actually pretty rational.

I've been following this thread for nearly 10 iterations. I barely know what Labour's position is . It seem more than half the party don't agree with their own position and it's likely to change at a moments notice.

listermint

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Is the supreme court judgement definitely being handed down this AM?

10:30am

Dymo

I know James O Brien is played a bit much but if you want to get inside the mind of a Brexiter listen to this. He doesn't care what Boris does or how much he lies, doesn't understand what Brexit is or knows nothing about the E.U.

Also the obligatory WW2 reference.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/caller-wants-to-leave-the-eu-because-of-abu-hamza/

There minds will never change if Brexit happens or not.

Bannasidhe

listermint wrote: »

Genuine left ? Is that what you would define yourself as?

What specifically about crashing the country into its worst recession on purpose is genuine left.

And the hyperbole about Corbyn being able to negotiate a better deal.


There is nothing genuine left about the Labour party now, They are momentum, they might aswell be PBP party.

Labour have run roughshod over its members and the minority of leadership backed by a very wealthy man are to blame. Do you think this fella is doing it out of the leftness of his heart. Its always money.

My personal politics have absolutely nothing to do with it.

The Labour Party was formed as a socialist party. 'New' Labour was not a socialist party - it was more akin to the liberal Whigs. Many in the Labour Party at grass roots level resented this - as is their right. They are working to move the party back towards the left.
And why shouldn't they?
It's hardly shocking that a political party formed by socialists might contain socialists. Although it seems to have come as a shock to many Labour MPs.

Momentum is a group of 40,000+ Labour Party members. They have every right to be heard and work towards having their views represented in the party.

Corbyn isn't driving the UK into a crash out No Deal Brexit that will cause a recession. Johnson is doing that. And pulling all sort of stunts like proroguing parliament while he is about it.

Who said anything about a 'better' deal- or a 'worse' deal for that matter?
Corbyn - or more exactly the negotiators who are sent - will agree A deal with the EU.

That deal will be put to a plebiscite.

The people get to decide if they agree to it.

Beats crashing out which is what the Tories are 'offering'.