Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

Enzokk

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Almost as appalling is the opposition have the numbers to take down this excuse for a government but will not agree amongst themselves

To try and stop Johnson from getting a majority and potentially going no-deal with parliament support, the opposition has to get him to request the extension himself or defy the law. Doing it for him will just give him more ammunition. I think the opposition shares a lot of blame for some of the problems, but this isn't one of them for me. The endgame for Brexit is with a new government and giving Johnson what he wants jeopardizes it, no matter how frustrating it is for us.

GM228 wrote: »

In other news today's hearing in the nob off case has concluded with a (potential) judgement tomorrow, it's interesting to note Lord President Carloway has hinted at postponing the judgement (in relation to potential nob off orders) until after the 19th to see if Johnson actually sends the letter, will know more tomorrow.

Makes sense, why would you rule on a hypothetical when it is less than 2 weeks to see if it is even needed.


As for Laura Kuennsberg, her reporting style isn't really to take a position but to present the 2 points of view and play them off each other. So she will rely on her sources within No.10 to give their side and she will contrast it with the response from the other side. So No.10 said X,Y and Z and the EU has said A,B and C. Or she will report that the EU stance is no new negotiations, yet there are rumblings of discontent from within the EU.

She isn't wrong or shown any bias, but it is also somehow not the true reflection of the state of play. I can see why the Government and the bosses at BBC will like her, but in times like these it is not enough.

Where she has jumped the shark is having that documentary about her reporting of Brexit and seeing her communicate with especially Johnson. That looks wrong to me for a Political Editor to be that close and cozy to any politician and to have it broadcast as well, a serious lack of judgement from both her and the BBC. She is not the story and once she became it she should have lost her job.

Beechwoodspark

She is way too cozy with Johnson and other tories in high places. I disregard most of her “analysis”. It’s easy to tell she is simply parroting what her “friends” have told her

briany

dePeatrick wrote: »

Merkel still looks dignified and honourable. I have always felt that she emanates an intillegence and warmth rare in politicians if her rank. Johnson on the other hand....

That poster puts paid to the spiel of "We love Europe, we just don't like the EU."

At this rate, the old "If you want a n*****r for a neighbour, vote Liberal or Labour" posters can't be far off.

boggerman1

Gove has just said in hoc that Britain will be better off with graps,wine from Argentina and something else.so alcoholic will be too drunk to see the fallout from a no idea brexit

54and56

trellheim wrote: »

Oh dear



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EGWuWYXU4AAzUmU.png:large

https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1181542541583273985


walk that back then

Thinly disguised xenophobia and a lot more to be whipped up where that came from.

I genuinely pity EU nationals and in particular Irish people currently living in the UK. I was there during the IRA bombing campaign of the 90's and there were times on the bus/Tube when you just kept your gob shut and avoided as much eye contact as possible for fear of some yob hearing your accent and going off on one.

If (more like when) this all goes tits up for the UK the hunt for "foreign" sounding scapegoats will be limitless.

briany

devnull wrote: »

The Brexiteers have no clue what they are on about, that article from this morning is misguided on so many levels, especially the bit about putting countries who block an extension at the front of the queue and the ones who vote for it at the back.

Do they not realise that the European Union is a Union of countries, you do business with the EU as a whole and not with each country so what they are claiming is not even possible anyway.

Doubt the Brexiteers realise that though.

Well, to be fair, it's only to do with cooperation in areas which are beyond EU competences.

Enzokk

I will post a couple of tweets by Ian Dunt on the situation,

https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1181544578102566914?s=20

As he points out its not the deception from No.10, its the stupidity of it and trying to get away with it that stinks.

Then as for the Johnson deal,

https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1181532573949927424?s=20

Johnson has made a proposal to the EU, there is no deal for the EU to agree. Those saying there is a deal on the table is being dishonest about the truth, then again this is the Leave Camp that lied to win so we shouldn't be surprised they are happy to do so all the time now.

boggerman1

Them ads are working with callers on lbc now blaming the EU for intransigence and "poor" Johnson is being bullied.England is truly f**ked.

That Merkel poster signifies just how filthy and potentially dangerous this is about to get. I was entertained weeks ago while watching the daily Commons proceedings, Bercow shouting "You are a master of disorder man" etc., but now I'm worried.

They're gonna fix their aim on us (Dublin/Ireland) even tighter now with their propaganda and lies as we are a hurdle for their goals. Names won't harm us, but I'm worried about the sticks and stones which could be unleashed by brainless followers who will believe anything that Downing Street/Cummings/Kuenssberg feed them.

If one Irish person is physically attacked because of any of this, that's one too many.

Also, I know the BBC haven't been perfect over the years, but they have gone way down in my estimation these past couple of months. Not that they'll feel the pinch, but I'm going to be giving their content a wide berth as a result of this circus.

devnull

54and56 wrote: »

Thinly disguised xenophobia and a lot more to be whipped up where that came from.

I genuinely pity EU nationals and in particular Irish people currently living in the UK. I was there during the IRA bombing campaign of the 90's and there were times on the bus/Tube when you just kept your gob shut and avoided as much eye contact as possible for fear of some yob hearing your accent and going off on one.

If (more like when) this all goes tits up for the UK the hunt for "foreign" sounding scapegoats will be limitless.

As someone who spends a fair bit of time working in the UK, I can tell you that the standard of debate in society in general is toxic. My father and some of my fathers side of the family live in the UK and they are lapping up the Leave EU propaganda and are always talking about the war, that poster has gone down very well with his kind of type.

I know people who work in UK organisations that are funded by the EU Social Fund, helping some of the most isolated and disadvantaged in society, whom have been all but abandoned by the UK government and they are fearful for what happens next as these people would have been really in trouble without EU funding as the Tories couldn't give a damn about them.

It isn't great to be a non Brit in the UK right now, I've heard some terrible things from my friends of other nationalities and the hostilities will only get worse. There's always been an arrogant side of British society who think they are better than they are and even my views, someone who has traveled all around Europe and seen things with my own eyes, are deemed as being totally brainwashed since someone who has never left the UK thinks they know it all.

Sadly as much as you wish to think that this is Xenophobia, there's an awful lot more where that came from. Much of what you see is the kind of thing that you see the Brexiteers talking about every day in the UK. Leave EU are just repeating the same mantra that many of their extreme supporters have, and sorry as I am to say it, there's going to be plenty more to come.

It's only going to get more toxic from here and on October 31st then I honestly think that the Police could have a very, very, very busy day and night as there is going to be a huge amount of tension that will overspill. It's already heating up by the day and sooner or later someone is going to lose it and spark a riot.

I really feel civil war and mass unrest is just around the corner.

Kermit.de.frog

They need a no deal in my opinion.

The EU should be prepared to restrict ever more access to EU markets.

The UK keep going on about damage to the EU in a no deal.

What the people there are not being told is what the EU can do to the UK overnight if it needs too. Many magnitudes of times worse than the other way round.

briany

54and56 wrote: »

Thinly disguised Raw xenophobia and a lot more to be whipped up where that came from.

Do Brexiteers really think there'd be any return to normality in the event of a no-deal? The level of hatred that's on show here makes politics-as-usual impossible in the short term.

L1011

Heidi Allen in the Lib Dems now and claims there's "20 more" Tories/ex Tories that would join. Which would make them bigger than the SNP and presumable re-take the speaking position they get.

Kermit.de.frog

L1011 wrote: »

Heidi Allen in the Lib Dems now and claims there's "20 more" Tories/ex Tories that would join. Which would make them bigger than the SNP and presumable re-take the speaking position they get.

Is there not a danger at this stage of the Lib Dems transforming in to the new Tory party

Duane Dibbley

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

They need a no deal in my opinion.

The EU should be prepared to restrict ever more access to EU markets.

The UK keep going on about damage to the EU in a no deal.

What the people there are not being told is what the EU can do to the UK overnight if it needs too. Many magnitudes of times worse than the other way round.

I agree. There should be a no deal Brexit.

The EU can then move on work on dealing with the consequences and NI and Scotland can decide what they want to do going forward.

But Brexit should be completed now.

dePeatrick

devnull wrote: »

As someone who spends a fair bit of time working in the UK, I can tell you that the standard of debate in society in general is toxic. My father and some of my fathers side of the family live in the UK and they are lapping up the Leave EU propaganda and are always talking about the war, that poster has gone down very well with his kind of type.

I know people who work in UK organisations that are funded by the EU Social Fund, helping some of the most isolated and disadvantaged in society, whom have been all but abandoned by the UK government and they are fearful for what happens next as these people would have been really in trouble without EU funding as the Tories couldn't give a damn about them.

It isn't great to be a non Brit in the UK right now, I've heard some terrible things from my friends of other nationalities and the hostilities will only get worse. There's always been an arrogant side of British society who think they are better than they are and even my views, someone who has traveled all around Europe and seen things with my own eyes, are deemed as being totally brainwashed since someone who has never left the UK thinks they know it all.

Sadly as much as you wish to think that this is Xenophobia, there's an awful lot more where that came from. Much of what you see is the kind of thing that you see the Brexiteers talking about every day in the UK. Leave EU are just repeating the same mantra that many of their extreme supporters have, and sorry as I am to say it, there's going to be plenty more to come.

It's only going to get more toxic from here and on October 31st then I honestly think that the Police could have a very, very, very busy day and night as there is going to be a huge amount of tension that will overspill. It's already heating up by the day and sooner or later someone is going to lose it and spark a riot.

I really feel civil war and mass unrest is just around the corner.

It would have started by now if it was going to happen imo, riots on the streets would play right into Johnsons hands, he can invoke emergency powers. I'm quite sure that the 'fighting' rhetoric used over last few weeks was designed to cause unrest.

A Dub in Glasgo

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Is there not a danger at this stage of the Lib Dems transforming in to the new Tory party

Swinson is Tory lite and it is a distinct possibility

The parliament only has weeks to live anyway

Infini

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Is there not a danger at this stage of the Lib Dems transforming in to the new Tory party

Not necessarily, It has to be said that the old Tory party is essentially dead, gutted from the inside and replaced by essentially UKIP Blue. If the Lib Dems take some of the more saner and pragmatic members in they not only get numbers but also those joining would also have to agree on policies the rest of the party will go along on with. They also could have had more in common with the Lib dems also but were loyal to their old party until the party abandoned them so they've no debts to the conservatives anymore expecially after what happened with the purging of longtime members.

L1011

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Is there not a danger at this stage of the Lib Dems transforming in to the new Tory party

Danger? Its already happened - they elected Swinson as leader; in full knowledge that she's probably going to lose her seat. She's a Tory in the only party that a non-eurosceptic Tory can be.

ancapailldorcha

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Is there not a danger at this stage of the Lib Dems transforming in to the new Tory party

They seem to be quite likely to capture up the economically liberal, pro-business vote as Johnson moves ever further to the nationalist right.

listermint

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Is there not a danger at this stage of the Lib Dems transforming in to the new Tory party

Who cares, I think they need an actual conservative party back.

It has to be better than this erg absolutely bonkers right wing madness.

J Mysterio

devnull wrote: »

The Brexiteers have no clue what they are on about, that article from this morning is misguided on so many levels, especially the bit about putting countries who block an extension at the front of the queue and the ones who vote for it at the back.

Do they not realise that the European Union is a Union of countries, you do business with the EU as a whole and not with each country so what they are claiming is not even possible anyway.

Doubt the Brexiteers realise that though.

Well, you do trade with individual countries, just within EU parameters and under EU laws.

Stop moaning ffs

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

They seem to be quite likely to capture up the economically liberal, pro-business vote as Johnson moves ever further to the nationalist right.

I’d support them personally but Swinson. She’s totally unfit to lead. And the pigheadedness especially when it comes to Corbyn is just too much. A no deal exit could be the fault of LD for not agreeing a coalition with Labour.
This should be relatively easy to do. But it’s all about wanting to be the white knight. And power.

quokula

L1011 wrote: »

Danger? Its already happened - they elected Swinson as leader; in full knowledge that she's probably going to lose her seat. She's a Tory in the only party that a non-eurosceptic Tory can be.

Yeah the Lib Dems have been moving further and further to the right and using remain as a tool to keep progressive voters on board. I think this is one of the reasons they vetoed a government of national unity - perpetuating the crisis lets them continue to court voters as the party of remain, while avoiding any scrutiny otherwise.

Torsevt

listermint wrote: »

Who cares, I think they need an actual conservative party back.

It has to be better than this erg absolutely bonkers right wing madness.

Yes and a labour leader with an opinion

Professor Genius

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

I’d support them personally but Swinson. She’s totally unfit to lead. And the pigheadedness especially when it comes to Corbyn is just too much. A no deal exit could be the fault of LD for not agreeing a coalition with Labour.
This should be relatively easy to do. But it’s all about wanting to be the white knight. And power.

Swinson is very naive, like a child.

Akabusi

How soon before we see a poster of Leo dressed as a Leprechaun or some vile reference to potatoes?

quokula

Professor Genius wrote: »

Swinson is very naive, like a child.

I'm pretty sure she's more calculated than naive. Her priority is doing what's best for the Lib Dems, not what's best for the country. For example the revoke policy is something they know they will never be in position to implement, but it's perfect to get them a bunch more seats, and allows them to carry on with the attacks on Labour for being too Brexity even though their proposal of a second referendum is the only realistic way out of this crisis.

Hurrache

I saw someone put this in their timeline and I thought it was just your usual Brexit moron, but yeah, double down on the Merkel photoshop from earlier.

https://twitter.com/andywigmore/status/1181503641779355650

Beechwoodspark

When ppl talk about rioting in the streets. Who would be rioting ? Brexiters not happy about how it’s going? Or remainers? Or both !!?