Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

Fr Tod Umptious

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

They couldn’t have backed her during Indy ref the first. UK was a member and Eu doesn’t act against members.

Now though? They can give Scottish independence full support. And personally delighted to see it. I’d say they’re going to have that referendum even without the ‘required permission’ of parliament. They’ll be fast tracked into EU too.
That’ll be a serious bloody nose for that strange breed of brexiter that demands ‘freedom and independence from the EU’ but refuse utterly to let Scottish independence and freedom of the UK happen.

There is no guarantee that the EU would give Scottish independence their full support, regardless of how relations are with the former member state the UK.

Not every one in the EU wants to stick it to the Brits like some here do.

Stop moaning ffs

Eric Cartman wrote: »

while true in that regard, they were told by the EU it was no dice if they voted yes. Spain had the veto sitting in writing just waiting incase.

As already posted. The EU didn’t back or nixx their first independence referendum as Scotland was still in the U.K. and EU doesn’t act against a member.

Now the U.K. is leaving and Scotland wants to remain a member. They’ll be granted it and fast tracked.

Jamiekelly

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Looking for money.

The irony of how many people were championing yes for an independent scotland who are now screaming that brexit won't work.

How they thought they were a special case with magical EU entry powers is beyond me.

A lot of things concerning politics seem to be beyond you Eric. An independent Scotland would apply to become a member of the largest economic trading bloc in existence whereas the UK is about to leave it despite Scotland and Northern Ireland voting no. The "irony" of your statement is that you think your comparison actually holds any weight. They have just become a "special case" considering they voted no to independence based entirely on the premise that they would not be allowed to join the EU straight away while the UK would remain. That has obviously changed.

Joe_ Public

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Tony Blair on the Andrew Neil Show right now.

Tough piece that for Tone, didnt really have any zinger answers to some very difficult questions.

Fr Tod Umptious

It's a bit of a leap to he taking about Scottish independence folks

Allowing a referendum is in the hands of the Westminster government and there is no guarantee that they will grant one.

As we have seen from Brexit close votes can be an absolute disaster.

Any Westminster government would want to be sure of a conclusive outcome either way before granting it in the first place.

briany

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Tony Blair on the Andrew Neil Show right now.

Blair saying he wants the referendum before an election but I can't see that happening. Think a referendum only gets considered if an election brings about another stalemate.

I don't know if it's the Russian trolls working overtime in the comment sections of the Internet (I'm sure that's got to be at least a significant amount), but every time I see Tony Blair pop up to talk about a current issue - to offer his opinion - it's, "Oh, **** off, Tony. What about the Iraq war, Tony? How dare the war criminal Tony Blair pontificate about ANYTHING." etc. etc.

I don't see many sticking up for him, so I think the net result is that he's not the best advocate against Brexit, no matter how much sense he might be talking.

Joe_ Public

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

It's a bit of a leap to he taking about Scottish independence folks

Allowing a referendum is in the hands of the Westminster government and there is no guarantee that they will grant one.

As we have seen from Brexit close votes can be an absolute disaster.

Any Westminster government would want to be sure of a conclusive outcome either way before granting it in the first place.

Might well be a longshot but then again a party with 45+ seats (post election obviously) would almost certainly wield a considerable amount of power, given what the DUP have managed to achieve with a paltry 10!

Joe_ Public

briany wrote: »

I don't know if it's the Russian trolls working overtime in the comment sections of the Internet (I'm sure that's got to be at least a significant amount), but every time I see Tony Blair pop up to talk about a current issue - to offer his opinion - it's, "Oh, **** off, Tony. What about the Iraq war, Tony? How dare the war criminal Tony Blair pontificate about ANYTHING." etc. etc.

I don't see many sticking up for him, so I think the net result is that he's not the best advocate against Brexit, no matter how much sense he might be talking.

Have said it before. Whatever your personal viewpoint on Blair, i dont think he wins many votes for remain when he appears in public. Same for Alastair Campbell, no matter what coherent arguments they come out with. Certainly, people in those brexit supporting areas in the midlands and north wouldnt be convinced by anything they have to say, at least i dont believe so anyway. And Blair talking about a referendum before GE, he knows of course that only way of achieving that is through a Corbyn-led temporary government but his extreme hatred of the current labour leader completely rules him out admitting to that.

Strazdas

briany wrote: »

I don't know if it's the Russian trolls working overtime in the comment sections of the Internet (I'm sure that's got to be at least a significant amount), but every time I see Tony Blair pop up to talk about a current issue - to offer his opinion - it's, "Oh, **** off, Tony. What about the Iraq war, Tony? How dare the war criminal Tony Blair pontificate about ANYTHING." etc. etc.

I don't see many sticking up for him, so I think the net result is that he's not the best advocate against Brexit, no matter how much sense he might be talking.

The bizarre thing is that most of the English right wingers / far right supported Blair's invasion of Iraq.

I remember the likes of Julia Hartley Brewer acting as cheerleaders for it.

Sonny678

I cannot find the post . I think the contributers name is Cryptocurrency who wrote it. He is pro brexit. The post I am referring to he said only few democrats in America support Ireland and he was downplaying the links between Ireland and America , Irish Americans etc.

One thing that is noticeable about Brexit is the British no nothing if very little about Ireland. One area they have completely undervalued and ignored is the Irish influence in America. When Bonnie Greer spoke about Irish America on Question Time last week , u could see the shock of the audience and panelist. An American on British Tv saying the Irish have more influence in the states. U could see their head shaken in disbelief. But the fact is the real special relationship is not UK and the USA , its Ireland and the USA . Yes the Yanks like a bit of Downtown Abbey now and again. But when it comes to politics, Washington and US politics in general, it has always had a strong Irish connection , links and influence running right through it.

The fact is in the US, Irelands impact in that country is nothing short of extraordinary. For a countries Irelands size it really is quite extraordinary the influence the impact the Irish have had in America. Sometimes in Ireland we can sneer at the Yanks taking about their great grandfather from Cobh. But if you ever live in the states which I did , you will find the connection between both countries is very strong indeed and very real for many Americans . And when the yanks talk about the old country its not England , its Ireland they are talking about.

Take St Patricks Day. St Patricks after 4th July is one of the few national days of celebration in US. Many people have called it to be a US public holiday. And If doesnt matter if you are African American or Italian American you celebrate St Patricks day. On St Patricks Day 2017 , US Consumers spent 4.8 billion dollars on that day. St Patricks day really is an Irish American festival where there are parades and celebrations, the lenght and breath of America. There is nothing in America comparable to it. In terms of another country being celebated or honoured one day a year in the USA, nothing comes close. Other counties like Italians with Columbus Day have tried to copy it. , but nothing is comparable .

Cyrtocurrency said 33 million out of 330 million r Irish American and he was downplaying this.. Its actually 35 million Irish Americans in the last American census There are more Irish Americans then Italian American. There are more Irish Americans then English Americans, Scot Americans and Welsh Americans put together.

Largest Groups in America

1 German Americans 49 million
2 African Americans 41 million
3 Irish Americans 35 million
4 Mexican Americans 31 million
5 English Americans 26 million
6 Italian Americans 17 million
7 Polish Americans 9 million
8 French American 9 million
9 Scot American 5 million
10 American Indian 5 million

others Dutch American 4 million , Chinese American 3 million and Welsh American 2 million .

But its in two areas the Irish have really made an impact. Across all parts of American life eg business ( Henry Ford , Ford Cars ) , literature ( F Scott Fitzgerald ) , military ( James Barry founder of US navy ) , musicians ( Kurt Cobain ) the Irish have made a serious impact , But its in two areas where the Irish have made an incredible impact far beyond its size and thats in the entertainment industry particularly Hollywood and secondly in US politics.

In Britian the main area that the Irish have impacted is also entertainment especially music ( The Beatles , The Smiths , Oasis , Johnny Rotten , Dusty Springfield, Elvis Costello, The Kinks ) and comedy ( Peter Kay , Steve Coogan , Jimmy Carr , Spike Milligan, nearly every top comedian in Britian is Frist or second generation Irish ). Also. in the states the impact in entertainment indusry is eye catching.

Walt Disney, John Ford and John Houston, three of the most important figures in US cinema all have strong Irish backgrounds. Oscar the statue was created by an Irish man and from then on Irish have ruled hollywood. lets not even mention actors and actresses today who are Irish Americans. Here is list of Irish American stars from the past eg Gene Kelly, Grace Kelly, Bing Crosby, James Cagney , lucille Ball , Rita Hayward , Burt Lancaster, Robert Mitchum , Gregory Peck , Spencer Tracy , John Wayne , Joan Crawford , Buster keaton , Marlon Brando , Judy Garland , Robert Redford , Harrison Ford , Diane Keaton , Martin Sheen and many many more. I havent even mentioned any modern actors. The list is to long.

The other area is politics. Cyrtocurrency
said there was just a few democrat who were supportive of Ireland, thats it. This is not correct . Across politics in the US , Republicans and Democrats have strong links to Ireland. Mike Pence the current Republican Vice President has strong Irish connections. Former speaker of the house another republican is Paul Ryan, another politician with a strong Irish background. The most celebrated republican president in last 100 years is Ronald Reagan. His actual name was Ronald O' Regan . He dropped the O after falling out with father. But Reagans family come from Tippearey. Richard Nixon also has strong Irish connections his family came from Timahoe in County kildare. Its not just JfK who had links to Ireland.

And the Irish Americans have always had a big say in the US presidential race. There are huge Irish American populations in the two big swing states of Ohio and Pennyslania. Notice how even Trump never criticises the Irish. Even he knows saying anything bad about Ireland is a non runner in the states. He will criticise Danes or Swedes or Australians, but not the Irish. Being from New York he knows how the Irish control politics especially in a city like New York. A city the Irish dominated politically for generations .

Anyway Here is a list of just current US Republican senators who are Irish American eg
Dan Sullivan Alaska Republican , Martha McSally Arizona Republian , Jerry Moran kansas Republican ,
Mitch McConnell kenucky Republican , Rand Paul Kentucky Republican ,
John Kennedy Republican ,
Bill Cassidy lousiana Republican , Susan Collins Marine Republican ,
Ed Marckey Masshuchueets Republican ,
Pat Twomey Republican Pennslyvania .

Thats just the list of US Republican senators who are Irish American, there is also a massive list of democrats who are Irish American and in the congress the numbers are huge also. To be sucessful politican in US it doesnt matter if u r Republican or Democrats being Irish American is an advantage and both parties have strong links with Ireland.

There has never been an Italian American president or an Mexican American president or an Asian American President or an Jewish American president and just 1 African American president yet around half of the US presidents have been Irish American. 22 of the 44 American presidents were Irish American. Andrew Jackson the first Democrat President both his parents where from Ireland. On the Declaration of Independence there w a 56 signatures. Of the 56 signatures there was 8 Irish American signatures and 3 signatures by individuals born in Ireland. Even in the foundation of early US politics and their country in 1776 the Irish played a significant role. Irish Men like Thomas lynch Jnr and Charles Carroll. No other country had any sort of such connection with Declaration of Independence.


The Irish have controlled and ran politics in America cities like New York , Chicago and Boston for generations. If u want to be sucessful American politican u need to spell out ur Irishness. And its not just big cities the Irish had influence. In the south and mid states Ireland has strong links. Take the term rednecks. This term comes from when tge5 Irish first arrived to the states , and they were working hard labour all day in the sun. They would arrive in to local towns with burnt red necks from the sun. They were given the nickname "rednecks". And thats were the name redneck originates. And you can also see massive influence of Irish music on country music in the states. Country music roots stretchs back to Irish folk music. So its not just the big cities, the Irish had influence it across the whole nation.

And it is a two way street. American influence in Ireland is huge. U could say Ireland is 51st state. The whole Irish economy for better or worse is built on US multinationals. Yes they came for low tax rates , but also the links between the countries has been a factor. U hear so many times American businesaman saying he came to Ireland to where his great grandfather came from. And When the Americans talk about the old country its not England , its Ireland they are talking about.

US multinationals have invested more in Ireland then in China , Russia , Brazil and India combined. US multinationals have invested more in Ireland per capita then.any other country in the world. US multinationals have invested 450 billion dollars into Ireland. So having a strong Irish economy and peace in Ireland is important to America. For personal reasons and also business reasons. Thats why Nancy Pelosi , the politican who has and can block trade deals , Nancy Pelosi , the speaker said if there is any damage to peace process she will block trade agreement with Uk. Shes a very shrewd politican she placing the Irish peace process over a trade deal.with the Uk. There are 35 million reasons in the US why she is doing this and 450 billion dollars invested in Ireland, why she is doing this.

When it comes politics in the US the Irish have always had massive influence and power for a country our size. The Brits dont realise this.
The one thing Brexit has shown the Irish is that the Brits no nothing about Ireland. And their ignorance towards the influence of the Irish in US is just another example of ignorance towards Ireland.

Akrasia

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

They couldn’t have backed her during Indy ref the first. UK was a member and Eu doesn’t act against members.

Now though? They can give Scottish independence full support. And personally delighted to see it. I’d say they’re going to have that referendum even without the ‘required permission’ of parliament. They’ll be fast tracked into EU too.
That’ll be a serious bloody nose for that strange breed of brexiter that demands ‘freedom and independence from the EU’ but refuse utterly to let Scottish independence and freedom of the UK happen.

Those same 'brexiters' who think the Scottish courts are interfering with English politics and that when the Scottish and English courts disagree, that the English should automatically take precedence

I wonder why the Scottish don't feel like they're equal partners in the UK?

Akrasia

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Looking for money.

The irony of how many people were championing yes for an independent scotland who are now screaming that brexit won't work.

How they thought they were a special case with magical EU entry powers is beyond me.

But they are. If Scotland are dragged out of the EU by the English, they will be welcomed back into the EU as an Independent Scotland

The people who were championing for an independent Scotland, were challenged by people saying an Independent Scotland would lose membership of the EU and that staying in the UK will guarantee them membership of the EU.. Many of those same exact people who are now saying Scotland should be dragged out of the EU because they're part of the UK

briany

Akrasia wrote: »

But they are. If Scotland are dragged out of the EU by the English, they will be welcomed back into the EU as an Independent Scotland

The people who were championing for an independent Scotland, were challenged by people saying an Independent Scotland would lose membership of the EU and that staying in the UK will guarantee them membership of the EU.. Many of those same exact people who are now saying Scotland should be dragged out of the EU because they're part of the UK

Brexit is an English idea. It's all about English nationalism. When you think of your most prominent Brexiteers, you think of a bunch of English people. You think of Nigel Farage, you think of Jacob Rees Mogg, you think of Mark Francois, you think of David Davis and you think of Julia Hartley Brewer, to name a few.

It just so happens that a big part of the English national character is also having a few vassals of its own. They may not like being bossed about, but they absolutely love bossing others around. So they obviously don't object to bossing about on principle, they just object to being on the wrong end.

So when you realise this, the Brexiteer position on Scotland isn't really hypocritical at all. It's just Brexiteers know enough not to openly admit their true position because it would invariably create a backlash and hurt their chances of keeping a hold on Scotland even more.

Water John

Diane Dodds MEP urging the Dairy Industry to pressure, Dublin and London to 'work for a sensible deal'
https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/dodds-dairy-industry-should-pressure-eu-to-strike-a-deal/

Does she not talk to her husband? This is some brass neck.

Capt'n Midnight

Podge_irl wrote: »

They literally would be a special case as the only constituent part of an EU member state to declare independence.

Algeria 1962 , Greenland 1985

Both special cases.
As a result of some unpleasantness a million people left Algeria to go to France.
Greenland's an exporter of fish and raw materials.

Sonny678

BonnieSituation wrote:

Sonny likes to go into a subject deep.

BonnieSituation wrote:

He's a much valued contributor on the GAA forums.

Thanks Bonniesituation, I appreciate it. Since it is the closed season in the GAA I thought I would write something on Brexit.

moon2

Water John wrote: »

Diane Dodds MEP urging the Dairy Industry to pressure, Dublin and London to 'work for a sensible deal'
https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/dodds-dairy-industry-should-pressure-eu-to-strike-a-deal/
.

From the article:

If the EU and Irish Government will not respond on a reciprocal basis then there needs to be equivalent tariffs on produce from the Republic of Ireland going into the UK market

Is she essentially saying that the UK have proposed a zero tariff on these goods under their WTO schedule and now they want the EU to match that?

Also, wouldn't it be impossible for them to tariff goods from Europe without also tariffing them from other nations unless they create bespoke trade deals with those other nations first?

Water John

Sonny, are they similar subjects???

marno21

briany wrote: »

Brexit is an English idea. It's all about English nationalism. When you think of your most prominent Brexiteers, you think of a bunch of English people. You think of Nigel Farage, you think of Jacob Rees Mogg, you think of Mark Francois, you think of David Davis and you think of Julia Hartley Brewer, to name a few.

And of course, the enclave of English nationalists located in Northern Ireland including DUP MPs by the name of Dodds, Wilson and Hoey amongst others.

Capt'n Midnight

prawnsambo wrote: »

The UK pay about £9-10 billion a year to Ni in the form of subventions, decentralised administrative functions and other grants. You'd need to look at McWilliams' article for the actual breakdown, but he contends that almost half of that would be unnecessary in a UI situation.

From a year ago.



Big items that drop out are,
Pensions - UK would continue to pay
UK Military spending is a lot higher ours. We spend approx £0 on nuclear weapons, submarines , aircraft carriers and supersonic fighters.

NI wouldn't have to continue to pay it's share of what the UK pays into the EU.
Also NI would reduce our average GDP so would reduce our EU payments nevermind the EU money we'd get on reunification.

Transitioning the NI state and semi-state support to the private sector would change a huge part of the economy from being a cost to a revenue source. And that's the big one.

https://sluggerotoole.com/2018/07/22/would-a-united-ireland-be-affordable/

The economy of Northern Ireland, in terms of GDP per capita, is further behind the Republic today than was the case between East Germany and West Germany in 1989. Bridging the two Irish economies in a newly unified state might take decades, as was and continues to be the case in Germany. But there are few Germans today that argue that unification wasn’t worth the expense.

J Mysterio

Uhhhhh

https://twitter.com/itvpeston/status/1182020313929805824

Kermit.de.frog

Taoiseach Leo Varadkar and Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s meeting tomorrow in England is being kept secret at the behest of Downing Street it has emerged.

The Taoiseach’s spokesman tonight said the Prime Minister’s office has asked that details of the meeting - 21 days out from the Brexit deadline - should be kept from the public.

The Taoiseach’s Office has refused to give any information on where the meeting with Mr Johnson will take place despite significant public interest.

A statement issued by the Government Information Services said the two leaders at the centre of Brexit negotiations will meet tomorrow in the "North West of England".

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/varadkar-and-johnsons-meeting-to-be-kept-secret-as-barnier-warns-still-no-basis-for-a-brexit-deal-38578895.html

Are we not even going to get written statements?

Joe_ Public

J Mysterio wrote: »

Uhhhhh

https://twitter.com/itvpeston/status/1182020313929805824

Cant make up my mind as to whether they actually have a trick of some sort up their sleeve or they're simply getting a kick out of torturing the opposition into believing they might have. Despicable behaviour either way and tragic thing is many millions of UK voters are going to fall hook, line and sinker for it.

Tell me how

WomanSkirtFan8 wrote: »

It woud be hillarious if it wasn't so bloody serious.:rolleyes:

Exactly, this is changing the narrative for what constitutes normal going forward.
I would bet that more than a few masters of the dark arts are licking their lips at the prospect of misinformation in future elections or policy discussions.

It shouldn't be like this, if you look at the 'Lead by Donkey's' campaign, they have bought up prominent Bill Board space displaying the words of key individuals before the referendum and how they have changed since.

This should be leading to flat out demands from show hosts, journalists and the public demanding that these people acknowledge how wrong they were but there's barely a ripple outside from the normal voices which are no longer attracting any new listeners.

Perfect storm of nationalism, austerity, social media and the concept of Fake News has only made it easier for manipulators to take the wheel going forward.

I hope we in Ireland manage to avoid it but wouldn't bet against it.

Headshot

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/varadkar-and-johnsons-meeting-to-be-kept-secret-as-barnier-warns-still-no-basis-for-a-brexit-deal-38578895.html

Are we not even going to get written statements?

Hopefully we find out and the protestors will be there in force. We know how much BJ loves the protests or anything negative against him

Water John

To send two in any way contradictory letters would be contempt for the law.
If I was Leo I'd have my phone on 'Record' at that meeting with Alexander.

ancapailldorcha

Below standard posts deleted.

Joe_ Public

Dont think they'll send two letters, think all this stuff is just being thrown out there to put everyone in a tizzy. They may have something up their sleeve or they may not, but there definitely has to be some method behind all the madness. Wouldnt underestimate the underhand stuff these people are capable of.

dePeatrick

Tell me how wrote: »

Exactly, this is changing the narrative for what constitutes normal going forward.
I would bet that more than a few masters of the dark arts are licking their lips at the prospect of misinformation in future elections or policy discussions.

It shouldn't be like this, if you look at the 'Lead by Donkey's' campaign, they have bought up prominent Bill Board space displaying the words of key individuals before the referendum and how they have changed since.

This should be leading to flat out demands from show hosts, journalists and the public demanding that these people acknowledge how wrong they were but there's barely a ripple outside from the normal voices which are no longer attracting any new listeners.

Perfect storm of nationalism, austerity, social media and the concept of Fake News has only made it easier for manipulators to take the wheel going forward.

I hope we in Ireland manage to avoid it but wouldn't bet against it.

It was being tried here with far right forums etc and Irexit but it has died a death, but you are right, it can happen again, we have to be vigilant.

NIMAN

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Well newsflash, the products shipped by dot DE probably transit through dot UK.

Surely it's not too difficult to route from Europe directly to Ireland? Eventually.

Would be nice if our euro partners could look out for one of their own, eh!