Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

Podge_irl

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Algeria 1962 , Greenland 1985

Both special cases.
As a result of some unpleasantness a million people left Algeria to go to France.
Greenland's an exporter of fish and raw materials.

Drat. That will learn me I suppose.

It is a unique situation in that it would be the first territory to secede from a member state who wanted to stay in the EU I guess then.

joe40

Podge_irl wrote: »

Drat. That will learn me I suppose.

It is a unique situation in that it would be the first territory to secede from a member state who wanted to stay in the EU I guess then.

An independent Scotland that is part of the EU would require strict border controls between themselves and England. Surely that would be a major hindrance for them, and cause problems with trade.

Tell me how

joe40 wrote: »

An independent Scotland that is part of the EU would require strict border controls between themselves and England. Surely that would be a major hindrance for them, and cause problems with trade.

What? No, It would be painless, things would just continue on as they are. Stop talking about things like that. That's project fear.

Sound familiar?

Professor Moriarty

The true split in the Tory party is now becoming manifest. Roughly 90 members of the ERG. Roughly 80 One Nation Tories. The rest oscillate between the two. The intervention by the One Nation Tories today is significant. If Johnson campaigns on No Deal, they won't support him. This means that he can't steal the Brexit Party's clothes. So:

If the Brexit Party choose to run in a GE without a pact, they will torpedo the Tories.

If he agrees a pact, the Brexit Party will demand that Brexit is hard and he will lose 80 One Nation MPs.

If he campaigns on a soft Brexit, he will lose 90 ERG MPs and any prospect of a Brexit Party pact.

Sonny678

Sorry I dont know what you mean ?

The problem with Brexit it is based on a lie. The Brits have been told 40 years of lies by the British media and their education system hasnt told them the full truth. Their media and education system has let them down badly. The media which is 70 % Tories , all go to the same dinner parties , their children go to the same schools , many of them are friends , which all means there is a cosy relationship between the media and the Tories. Which the Brits dont seem to acknowledge. They can see how biased certain sections of America media is to Republians eg Fox News, but they dont see their own biased media.

The media is controlled by a few wealthy men , who have an agenda which is to support and praise the Tories and other right wing agendas. The media have built a campaign of 50 years of lies and truths on the EU. While their educational system doesnt look at the negative impacts of certain parts of British history eg empire and concentrates on areas like the Armada or WW2.

The Brits dont know when they first arrived in India , India was one of the richest countries in the world. When they left India was a poor third world country. They know their was potato famine. They know all about Irish and the potatoes. But they dont know food was being shipped out of the country by the British government and the British government saw this as a good way of keeping the Irish population down. They just dont know the whole story. Their media and education system has let them down badly. The net result is a country obsessed with its past , stuck in its past, a romanticised past and not a correct picture of the past.

Their obsession is WW 2. You can understand as it was a global event and The Brits played a big role and many families have connections to the conflict. But it is not healthy for anyone or any person or anything to be stuck in the past obsessed with the past. Its not healthy and is a negative outlook .

The UK is finished. Uk RIP. United Ireland is on the cards. And its not a question if Scotland will gain independence , its a question when. The English are convinced that Scots will never leave and have no guts to leave. But the fact is everything is pointing in the direction of Scottish independence . If you look at Irish Independence or Indian it wasnt over night. It was events over generations. The same with Scotland. Thatchers devisive policies in Scotland in 80s , devolution in 90s , Independence referendum and now Brexit are all events on the road to Scottish independence.

If anything Brexit has brought closer the day the Scots will leave. The Scots hate the English, and most scots would vote independence but fears of how Scotland would do economically is the stumbling block. And how the English won the referendum was how if Scotland left , the Scottish economy would collaspe in the morning. The government basically scared the living daylights out of the Scots in to staying. But this tactic isnt going to work forever. But one day will come when Scots will leave , all they need is 50%. And we all know nationalism is not something u can control. Its just grows and grows. And so many of the young people whi rpro independence when they grow older , that 50 % mark pro independence will come closer and closer.

The Scots are half way out the door in this abusive relationship where only fear morgering and threats and predictions of economic collaspe are keeping the Scots in the Uk. Like any abusive relationship one day will come, when the person just says i have had enough, we have had long relationship, but u keep ignoring and treating me like ****, I am gone , I can now stand on my own two feet. This day is inevitable for the Scots. U cannot control nationalism when it's on the rise.

It's probably a good thing. England can go out on its own. Maybe they can re invent themselves. England and Wales together could have a bright future. Dream up a new country. Instead thinking of past glories. But the Uk is finished as we know it. Brexit is just another nail in the coffin. Its just one big long nostalgia trip. Britian will never rule the world again like they did in 18th or 19th century. They will probably never produce a Shakespeare or act like The Beatles again. They will never be centre of Industrial revolution again. The present is medicore. The past was great. Its a country stuck it past in 1966 , 1945 , Waterloo , Spanish Armanda , King Arthur , Queen Elizabeth 1st , Queen Victoria, King Henry 8th , etc etc. Its all in the past. When u r stuck in the past something like Brexit happens.

And its a tragedy, its actually sad to see a country have a nervous breakdown. In 100 years the British will look back at this period and say what the hell was going on in our country in 2019. It is a tragedy as it is own goal, a self inflicted wound caused by shower of aristocratic wierdos supported by their lackeys in the media. Britian is quite strange where so many working class people and middle class vote for an upper class aristocratic party eg Tories. And the truth is the Tories hate the working class and the middle class. They dont care is the best u can say about them. Everything in the Uk comes back to class. Tories have been at war with lower and middle classes for 40 years. Thatcher began the divisions in British society between us and them in 80a. On one side was the miners , the unions , the Welsh , the Scots , the scousers , the mancs and football fans. On the other side was Thatcher using the full force of the state to destroy the heart and soul of a nation. She was very sucessful.

Then u had austerity which again the Tories relished inflicting as much pain and suffering on ordinary people as they gleefully could. The Tories tryed to destroy the lower classes with Thatchers policies in 80s and austerity in this decade. Now with Brexit they are coming for the middle claases and r attempting to destroy the middle class and the business community as well as lower clasess. When, oh when will British wake up to the fact the Toriew couldnt care less about Ordinary people. They don't represent ordinary people , they represent the aristocrats.

15 years ago people like Boris Johnson, Jacob Mogg and Ian Duncan Smith were seen as a joke. They werent seen as serious politicans or taken as serious. Now because of Brexit these jokers are ruling the roost as a country sets fire to itself. How did the Brits lose all sense of cop on, or reality. As I said of if u been told in papers , school books , tv , media, books and education system, if u being told half truths, fabrications and just blatant lies all ur life. If your whole journey through life u were given half truths well then something like Brexit happens.

Its a tragedy coz Brits are a decent sort. Most Brits u will meet are decent. We have many things in common with them. But they have a serious lack of self awareness and they dont do self criticism or self reflection or self anyalsis. And if they do its always goes back to class. And class is very black and white, us v them. Class doesn't tell the full picture.

The Brits sometimes laugh at the Yanks. They know all the issues qnd problems in USA eg guns race . But they dont in their own country. Britian has never had a revolution. There has been an Irish revolution, an American revolution, a French revolution, a German Revolution, a Russian revolution and Chinese revolution. The Brits have never had a revolution. When a revolution happens the establishment are questioned and taken over. There is vigourous examination and debate of where a country is going or what country stands for and every institution in that country is examined and analysed and sometimes violently attacked. The Brits have never had to go through such examination of themselves. Again the Brits dont really do self criticism.or self anyalsis.

Most countries have had an era where the establishment and powers that be in that country were vigorously debated and attacked. In Ireland the church and the economic crash of 2008 meant Irish who didnt criticises the powers in the past now were openly being self critical as a nation as a whole.. It meant Ireland had a period of serious self criticism., self anyalsis and the institutions were criticised. Ireland is a better country for that.

In the 60s in the states a whole generation began to question the government, the US establishment, US institutions . It rocked America to it core. For the first time Americans were questioning everything about their county, the good and bad. Where America the good guys. What are the bad things America has done. It was a period American self awareness and self reflection . Many of that generation would go onto take on the establishment and some became establishment . People like Clinton or Obama would have grown up questioning and understanding the bad and good side of America. In Britian there was no such movement in the 60s. The swinging 60s in Britian was a couple of great bands in their 20s creating great music, taking drugs and swaping partners. Britian didnt have the same discussion about themselves in the 60s. If there was a discussion it was class based.

The Brits have never had that event or movement where every institution and establishment and every part of that country negative and positive was up for debate. The Brits severely lack self awareness, they dont do self criticism. They know all the issues and problem in US , Africa or China. While back home , everything from monarchy to media and other established institutions is great. The Queen is great. The empire is great. The football team is great. Britian is great. Brexit is great. Its all just great.

And from all the above u have the unfolding tragic drama named Brexit in a country where a group of aristocrats with funny haircuts and funny posh voices , helped by a biased and gullible media bring a whole nation to its knees.

Podge_irl

joe40 wrote: »

An independent Scotland that is part of the EU would require strict border controls between themselves and England. Surely that would be a major hindrance for them, and cause problems with trade.

Depending on how Brexit goes sure. The original comment was referencing the original Scottish independence referendum.

10000maniacs

The blame game continues a la Jeremy Hunt.
"It's Irelands call. If Ireland chooses to take a statesman like approach at this stage, there is a deal to be done"
They still don't get it do they? I am beginning to think they still don't see Northern Irish Nationalists as equals, but as collateral Brexit damage.

Tell me how

dePeatrick wrote: »

It was being tried here with far right forums etc and Irexit but it has died a death, but you are right, it can happen again, we have to be vigilant.

Wait until the next GE and Peter Casey returns for his 3rd attempt.
Some of the rhetoric he came out with the last 2 times was straight from the Trump/Brexit playbook.
Widely supported by many (anonymous) people on this forum for example.

Flex

10000maniacs wrote: »

The blame game continues a la Jeremy Hunt.
"It's Irelands call. If Ireland chooses to take a statesman like approach at this stage, there is a deal to be done"
They still don't get it do they? I am beginning to think they still don't see Northern Irish Nationalists as equals, but as collateral Brexit damage.

Here’s part of the interview where he blames Ireland for refusing to allow the EU to be pragmatic (as he states that the EU is intransigent but wants a deal, Ireland is stopping them and we are also threatening the GFA by lacking statesman behavior) and his open letter (where, among other things, he blames the EU for not giving Cameron enough concessions before to referendum to win it).

Really pathetic and despicable

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-49986410

josip

10000maniacs wrote: »

The blame game continues a la Jeremy Hunt.
"It's Irelands call. If Ireland chooses to take a statesman like approach at this stage, there is a deal to be done"
They still don't get it do they? I am beginning to think they still don't see Northern Irish Nationalists as equals, but as collateral Brexit damage.

Yes, I just read the BBC interview he gave to LK.
He's completely disconnected from reality.
"It's all the EU's fault if a no deal Brexit occurs because they don't understand what's going on in British politics at the moment."
Jeremy, even the British themselves don't understand what's going on in British politics right now.
He doesn't have any skin in the game right now, so he really must believe this stuff and isn't simply being a mouthpiece for someone?

Professor Moriarty

josip wrote: »

Yes, I just read the BBC interview he gave to LK.
He's completely disconnected from reality.
"It's all the EU's fault if a no deal Brexit occurs because they don't understand what's going on in British politics at the moment."
Jeremy, even the British themselves don't understand what's going on in British politics right now.
He doesn't have any skin in the game right now, so he really must believe this stuff and isn't simply being a mouthpiece for someone?

Why should what is going on in British politics right now influence what the EU wants from Brexit? They really are insular.

boggerman1

Some Tory minister on newsnight trying to make a gullible public to believe black is black and black is white at the same time

J Mysterio

Jeremey Hunt wading back into the Brexit debate with this completely vain and useless intervention.

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1182037846573666305

What tremendous observational skills he doth possess.

reslfj

prawnsambo wrote: »

They may currently transit through the UK. But there are other routes available and they will take the quickest and most cost-effective one. The main reason not to use .co.uk, is not just transit time, but because of customs costs and delays that would ensue.

Goods in transit will come in sealed lorries/containers and will not be controlled on departure, in transit or at arrival in Ireland.

Urgently needed medicine will be flown in, the rest will use the land bridge or more likely come with a ro-ro ferry nl/be/fr <-> Ireland.

Lars

Mr.Nice Guy

Hunt's remarks aren't a surprise. This is all just a game for domestic consumption. Peter Foster reported a month ago that as far as Cummings was concerned the negotiations were a sham:

https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1168641286292824064

Everything that has happened subsequently bears that out. We're going to have all sorts of Tories in the coming days coming out with comments about how Dublin was being difficult, a very reasonable proposal was put forward, the Benn Act emboldened Brussels to be dismissive, yadda, yadda, yadda. It's all part of the tiresome blame game strategy.

The meeting with Varadkar and Johnson will also come to nothing. Varadkar will be presented as intransigent and unreasonable and the DUP will wade in and say he's trying to annex NI. There was a good article in The Guardian by Rafael Behr about Johnson's next step. Particulary liked this bit:

Labour can afford to wait for an election, but Johnson desperately needs one, not because he can be sure of victory but because he has no idea what else to do. Downing Street is already a campaign headquarters, not the centre of a serious government. Brexit was only ever really a campaign. It is an idea born in protest and raised on wild, unrealistic promises. It refuses to be domesticated as government policy. May tried and failed. Johnson hasn’t seriously bothered trying. He just wants to get the issue back into the realm of empty slogans, its natural habitat.

It's going to be a sorry sight when the UK's next election sees serious issues like health, policing and education play second fiddle to a bunch of slogans like 'get Brexit done' and 'clean break Brexit'.

liamtech

Sonny678 wrote: »

The Brits sometimes laugh at the Yanks. They know all the issues qnd problems in USA eg guns race . But they dont in their own country. Britian has never had a revolution. There has been an Irish revolution, an American revolution, a French revolution, a German Revolution, a Russian revolution and Chinese revolution. The Brits have never had a revolution. When a revolution happens the establishment are questioned and taken over. There is vigourous examination and debate of where a country is going or what country stands for and every institution in that country is examined and analysed and sometimes violently attacked. The Brits have never had to go through such examination of themselves. Again the Brits dont really do self criticism.or self anyalsis.

An aside but the problem of lack of self analysis is contributing north of the border too i believe. Particularly in the Unionist community, whereby they genuinely don't realize the economic/agricultural/Dairy/industrial disaster that will unfold in the event of No-Deal- I would be very hopeful that the DUP will lose support in NI, and perhaps the UUP/Alliance might make some gains

In Fairness self analysis is problematic for our lot too. We are puzzled by the problems in the UK - and we scratch our heads when yet another shooting takes place in America, swiftly followed by prayers and 'you cannot change the second amendment' - .. and yet look at irish politics - Punishing Fianna Fail by voting for Fine Gael, and vice versa - with no actual opposition that has a different ideology - the left in shambles - and the latest trend of voting for large bunches of independents, is hardly accomplishing anything nationally.

Very Interesting piece Sonny i really enjoyed reading it

Tell me how

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

It's going to be a sorry sight when the UK's next election sees serious issues like health, policing and education play second fiddle to a bunch of slogans like 'get Brexit done' and 'clean break Brexit'.

Worse.
First layer of communication will be about Brexit
Second will be about defeating Corbyn
Third will be about keeping Brexit Party under control.

Then there'll be waffle about more police, more hospitals, industry incentives etc, none of which will be analysed to any degree.

They're in a bad bad place.

MrMusician18

josip wrote: »

Yes, I just read the BBC interview he gave to LK.
He's completely disconnected from reality.
"It's all the EU's fault if a no deal Brexit occurs because they don't understand what's going on in British politics at the moment."
Jeremy, even the British themselves don't understand what's going on in British politics right now.
He doesn't have any skin in the game right now, so he really must believe this stuff and isn't simply being a mouthpiece for someone?

That slimy eejit is looking for a way back into government.

His road to the top job post the Johnson era is much more straightforward if he's in a top post.

J Mysterio

And now... the International Trade Secretary.

https://twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1182051815669542914

Honestly, it's just huge gaffe after another.

Capt'n Midnight

joe40 wrote: »

An independent Scotland that is part of the EU would require strict border controls between themselves and England. Surely that would be a major hindrance for them, and cause problems with trade.

Why would it ?

There'll be maximum facilitation and customs posts set up in or near the edges of the Scottish Marches, each of which will have a Lord Warden, and there'll be Conservators of the Truce too. Dust down all the old documents and you may even find that all the necessary laws still haven't been rescinded.

The Scotland - England border has less crossings and less paramilitaries.


Yeah , as if it would be that easy.

Capt'n Midnight

10000maniacs wrote: »

Peter Lilley comparing Northern Ireland to Corsica and the Straits of Messina on Newsnight now.
"Imagine if France was to have customs procedures on trade between mainland France and Corsica. Or Italy was to have checks on goods on the Straits of Messina passing between Italy and Sicily". These guys are fruitloops.

Imagine if Corsican money wasn't legal tender in Paris.
Imagine if Sicily had fundamentally different laws to Rome and allowed Danish banks to print their own money.

Imagine if the Channel Islands were outside the mainland for VAT and banking regulations.
Imagine if the Isle of Man had a data protection adequacy agreement with the EU that the mainland didn't.

Water John

The issues of NHS, Police, are important in a GE. The research on Peston showed that. Esp among women who are later at making up their minds who they vote for. The Tories are aware that's where Lb can make inroads during a GE campaign.

Capt'n Midnight

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Demographics. the elderly dyed in the wool Tories are shuffling off this mortal coil, as we all will in time too. No offence to them. But it brings a new dynamic into the mix.

One thing which is just worth having in mind: 2 per cent of the older part of the electorate die every year - they are 70 per cent Conservative

Another 2 per cent come in at the young end of the electorate - they are about 70 per cent Labour. That's about 2 per cent change each year. There isn't that much time

- Michael Heseltine June 2017


Even if no one changes their mind a rerun of the referendum would mean remain wins. Last time I checked about a million of those who voted remain aren't here anymore and about two million new voters have reached the age threshold or have registered for the first time.

reslfj

J Mysterio wrote: »

And now... the International Trade Secretary.

https://twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1182051815669542914

Honestly, it's just huge gaffe after another.

The WTO is the new name for the GATT international organisation from 1948.

Like the EU was not called the EU but the EEC 45 years ago. But both organisations did exist.

However the GATT rules of 1972, the new dynamics of an organisation with now very many more and stronger members and indeed the very different trade flow of 2019, makes the comments from International Trade Secretary Ms. Liz Truss' as as ever.

Lars

josip

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

One thing which is just worth having in mind: 2 per cent of the older part of the electorate die every year - they are 70 per cent Conservative

Another 2 per cent come in at the young end of the electorate - they are about 70 per cent Labour. That's about 2 per cent change each year. There isn't that much time

- Michael Heseltine June 2017


Even if no one changes their mind a rerun of the referendum would mean remain wins. Last time I checked about a million of those who voted remain aren't here anymore and about two million new voters have reached the age threshold or have registered for the first time.

The 2 percent change each year is based on people not changing as they age which I don't think holds up to scrutiny.
Many people are socialist lefties in college but become more conservative and right wing as they get older.
I'm not sure how this maps to a Remain/Leave vote, but to assume that demographics would determine the result of a rerun would be a dangerous assumption to make.

briany

marno21 wrote: »

And of course, the enclave of English nationalists located in Northern Ireland including DUP MPs by the name of Dodds, Wilson and Hoey amongst others.

The DUP don't want Brexit so much as they want to be the same as the rest of the UK*. If the UK had voted to stay in, the DUP would have more or less gone along with that. Not to mention that none of those names are really prominent in the Brexit conversation. They're backbenchers that nobody really cares about.

(*on a strictly a la carte basis)

Sonny678

I think what is obvious the Brits no feck all about Ireland. They know little about even Northern Ireland. Many see Ireland ( especially the Tories ) as what I call the words with P. When they think of Ireland its Potatoes, Priests , Peasants, Pixies , Provisional IRA and the Pope. For people like the Tories , Ireland is seen as smally tiny poor backwater conservative. A friendly people with the gift of the gab. But a bit thick, basically stupid who like to drink and can be violet and behind charm are not to be trusted. If you go back to early article's on the Irish u will see the stereotype , basically a stupid drunken Paddy. And you can see in some of the Brexit commentary oh the irish are a bit stupid. There is even reports that the Tory Ministers think leo is thick, a bit stupid. Again it plays to thick Paddy image. Remeber in 1970s books on Irish Paddy man jokes sold by 100000s in the Uk.

Yes there is warmth towards Ireland as well. Irish entertainers eg Andrews , Wogan, Norton , O Brian, musicians have done well in Britian. And from Riverdance , Ireland is at times popular in Britian. Many have relations in Ireland. And when things are good eg last 20 years, the image in Ireland is generally positive. But with Brexit, the old prejudices appear again.

Its not drunken Paddy , its more Ireland is a smally tiny irrevelant powerless island that should know it's place. Most Brits think Ireland as still conservative church run and maybe even poor country. That was true 50 years ago. But Ireland has transformed in the last 50 years from conservative to liberal progressive society and from economic basket case to one of the richest countries in the world. Per capita Ireland is one of the richest countries in the world. 10th in the world , richer per capita then even Britian. Irish incomes are higher then British incomes on average. No country has undergone such a transformation in western Europe in last 50 years as Ireland Yes Ireland has social problems eg Health service , Homelessness, bad planning , housing. But overall Ireland is a wealthy country with a high standard of living.

This has given Ireland more confidence in itself. While allot of Brits, especially the Tories still see Ireland as rural back water. Tiny and irrevelant. We are tiny and small in Europe in general . At the moment in these talks we r in a position of strenght. But in general we are a small country in terms of politically socially and economically in Europe. In culture, we make an impact for our size in Europe. With our poets , writers, novelist and musicians. The top biggest selling music countries in the world 1 USA 2 Uk 3 Canada 4 Ireland. Ireland has produced greater modern music then Germany, Italy and Russia put together.

But the two countries we have had an impact is eg USA and Uk. But in the Uk the Irish are ignored. They are called the invisible immigrat. But Ireland has always played a role in British politics going back to Daniel O Connell and Parnell. Every British PM since Gladstone has had to deal and given huge amount of time on what some call.the Irish problem. But yet u can go through the whole British education system, eg primary , secondary and even study history at third level and Ireland is not mentioned once. Why ?.

Well its small country. But It has had an impact. The reason is if you look at Irish history allot of bad things happened to the Irish under British rule eg Famine, Religious persecution, ethnic cleansing ( Cromwell ). Its at complete odds to the pictures painted of the UK in history school books. We are the good guys. Yes the Brits did spread democracy. But when they invaded a country they didnt just make a cup of tea and everything was rosey. It was at times brutal and tough regime where advantages were taken of the colonised country. And the colonised was left in a poor state afterwards. But this is not told in British history school books. Then u throw in troubles in Northern Ireland in 70s and 80s and all the complexities and difficulties of that conflict. Talking about Irish history in Britian would be all tangled up in what was going on in the north for 30 years.

The Irish in Britian there r very few politicans exception eg Duke of Wellington, James Callaghan and Blair ( grandmother was from.Donegal ) , Britian has never had a catholic Prime Minister. Britian is much more conservative then they like to think. Business , science no its entertainment industry where Irish made their impact. Nearly all the greats of British music are first or second generation Irish.

Example of such artists are The Beatles , The Smiths , John Lydon , Lonnie Donegan , Dusty Springfield ( Mary O Brien) , The kinks , Boy George ( George O Dowd ) , Elvis Costello ( Declan McManus), Pete Doherty, David Essex ( parents Irish Travellers) , Shaun Ryder, Kevin Rowland and Dexys and even David Bowie mother was Irish. Every band from Manchester other then Joy Division had Irish background. And evey top Uk comedian has Irish background. So many come from the western seaboard eg Gallaghers, Barrymore, Coogan, lee Mack eg Mayo , Spike Milligan eg Sligo , Peter Kay eg Roscommon and Frankie Boyle eg parents from Gweedore Donegal. Jimmy Carr was born in limerick.

Comedians with Irish backgrounds eg Peter Kay, Steve Coogan, Spike Milligan, Frankie Boyle, Jimmy Carr , Sean locke , Dermot O Leary, Michael Mcityrne, Mickey Flanagan, Billy Connelly, Lee Mack, lee Evans , Kevin Bridges , Declan Donnelly ( Ant and Dec) , Shane Ritchie , Michael Barrymore, Caroline Aherne,
Victoria Wood.

Most Brits do not know this and would be shocked to know the extent of the impact of the Irish in Britian. They are not Irish , but some like Jonny marr consider themselves not British. Jonny marr consider himself Manchester Irish. The Brits wouldnt know both Morriseys parents are from Dublin and he is first cousin to Robbie keane. Or that Jonny Marr the greatest British guitarist of last 40 years parents were from a small village called Athy in kildare. While Mani the best British bassist of last 40 years (The Stone Roses, Primal Scream ) parents were from just up the street in Athy kildare also. The Irish have made huge impact in Britian also. But this doesn't fit into image of Ireland
But no Irish immigration there is no Beatles, no Segerat Pepper, no punk rock (John Lydon) no Smiths no Britpop ( Oasis).


But its in the USA where Ireland have made huge impact. Thats. where there has been genuine influence and impact in every sector of society from the law , the police , business, entertainment to the highest political offices in the land. But again the Brits dont really know this. The Brits no nothing about Ireland. If they knew just little a bit , we wouldn't have had the problem with the border. A bit more truth , a bit more knowleage , a bit more understanding of Ireland and eveything could have been so much different.

marno21

briany wrote: »

The DUP don't want Brexit so much as they want to be the same as the rest of the UK*. If the UK had voted to stay in, the DUP would have more or less gone along with that. Not to mention that none of those names are really prominent in the Brexit conversation. They're backbenchers that nobody really cares about.

(*on a strictly a la carte basis)

Well while I’d agree with that, given the hardline nature of the DUP’s politics, a hard Brexit represents a unique opportunity to destroy the Good Friday Agreement they despise and return to a hard bordered NI, with a giant wall to block out the Paddies

MrMusician18

josip wrote: »

The 2 percent change each year is based on people not changing as they age which I don't think holds up to scrutiny.
Many people are socialist lefties in college but become more conservative and right wing as they get older.
I'm not sure how this maps to a Remain/Leave vote, but to assume that demographics would determine the result of a rerun would be a dangerous assumption to make.

I believe that there are studies shown that in the UK, the transition from liberal majority to conservative majority is happening later and later. I think it's in the mid to late 40s now. It used to be early to mid 30s in a couple of decades ago.

I don't know why this had happened but I surmise that the inability to afford a reasonable home has a lot to do with it.

Stacksofwacks

Sonny678 wrote: »

I think what is obvious the Brits no feck all about Ireland. They know little about even Northern Ireland. Many see Ireland ( especially the Tories ) as what I call the words with P. When they think of Ireland its Potatoes, Priests , Peasants, Pixies , Provisional IRA and the Pope. For people like the Tories , Ireland is seen as smally tiny irreversible poor backwater conservative. A friendly people with the gift of the gab. But a bit thick, basically stupid who like to drink and can be violet and behind charm are not to be trusted. If you go back to early article's on the Irish u will see the stereotype , basically a stupid drunken Paddy. And you can see in some of the Brexit commentary oh the irish are a bit stupid. There is even reports that the Tory Ministers think leo is thick, a bit stupid. Again it plays to thick Paddy image. Remeber in 1970s books on Irish Paddy man jokes sold by 100000s in the Uk.

Yes there is warmth towards Ireland as well. Irish entertainers eg Andrews , Wogan, Norton , O Brian, musicians have done well in Britian. And from Riverdance , Ireland is at times popular in Britian. Many have relations in Ireland. And when things are good eg last 20 years, the image in Ireland is generally positive. But with Brexit, the old prejudices appear again.

Its not drunken Paddy , its more Ireland is a smally tiny irrevelant powerless island that should know it's place. Most Brits think Ireland as still conservative church run and maybe even poor country. That was true 50 years ago. But Ireland has transformed in the last 50 years from conservative to liberal progressive society and from economic basket case to one of the richest countries in the world. Per capita Ireland is one of the richest countries in the world. 10th in the world , richer per capita then even Britian. Irish incomes are higher then British incomes on average. No country has undergone such a transformation in western Europe in last 50 years as Ireland Yes Ireland has social problems eg Health service , Homelessness, bad planning , housing. But overall Ireland is a wealthy country with a high standard of living.

This has given Ireland more confidence in itself. While allot of Brits, especially the Tories still see Ireland as rural back water. Tiny and irrevelant. We are tiny and small in Europe in general . At the moment in these talks we r in a position of strenght. But in general we are a small country in terms of politically socially and economically in Europe. In culture, we make an impact for our size in Europe. With our poets , writers, novelist and musicians. The top biggest selling music countries in the world 1 USA 2 Uk 3 Canada 4 Ireland. Ireland has produced greater modern music then Germany, Italy and Russia put together.

But the two countries we have had an impact is eg USA and Uk. But in the Uk the Irish are ignored. They are called the invisible immigrat. But Ireland has always played a role in British politics going back to Daniel O Connell and Parnell. Every British PM since Gladstone has had to deal and given huge amount of time on what some call.the Irish problem. But yet u can go through the whole British education system, eg primary , secondary and even study history at third level and Ireland is not mentioned once. Why ?.

Well its small country. But It has had an impact. The reason is if you look at Irish history allot of bad things happened to the Irish under British rule eg Famine, Religious persecution, ethnic cleansing ( Cromwell ). Its at complete odds to the pictures painted of the UK in history school books. We are the good guys. Yes the Brits did spread democracy. But when they invaded a country they didnt just make a cup of tea and everything was rosey. It was at times brutal and tough regime where advantages were taken of the colonised country. And the colonised was left in a poor state afterwards. But this is not told in British history school books. Then u throw in troubles in Northern Ireland in 70s and 80s and all the complexities and difficulties of that conflict. Talking about Irish history in Britian would be all tangled up in what was going on in the north for 30 years.

The Irish in Britian there r very few politicans exception eg Duke of Wellington, James Callaghan and Blair ( grandmother was from.Donegal ) , Britian has never had a catholic Prime Minister. Britian is much more conservative then they like to think. Business , science no its entertainment industry where Irish made their impact. Nearly all the greats of British music are first or second generation Irish.

Example of such artists are The Beatles , The Smiths , John Lydon , Lonnie Donegan , Dusty Springfield ( Mary O Brien) , The kinks , Boy George ( George O Dowd ) , Elvis Costello ( Declan McManus), Pete Doherty, David Essex ( parents Irish Travellers) , Shaun Ryder, Kevin Rowland and Dexys and even David Bowie mother was Irish. Every band from Manchester other then Joy Division had Irish background. And evey top Uk comedian has Irish background. So many come from the western seaboard eg Gallaghers, Barrymore, Coogan, lee Mack eg Mayo , Spike Milligan eg Sligo , Peter Kay eg Roscommon and Frankie Boyle eg parents from Gweedore Donegal. Jimmy Carr was born in limerick.

Comedians with Irish backgrounds eg Peter Kay, Steve Coogan, Spike Milligan, Frankie Boyle, Jimmy Carr , Sean locke , Dermot O Leary, Michael Mcityrne, Mickey Flanagan, Billy Connelly, Lee Mack, lee Evans , Kevin Bridges , Declan Donnelly ( Ant and Dec) , Shane Ritchie , Michael Barrymore, Caroline Aherne,
Victoria Wood.

Most Brits do not know this and would be shocked to know the extent of the impact of the Irish in Britian. They are not Irish , but some like Jonny marr consider themselves not British. Jonny marr consider himself Manchester Irish. The Brits wouldnt know both Morriseys parents are from Dublin and he is first cousin to Robbie keane. Or that Jonny Marr the greatest British guitarist of last 40 years parents were from a small village called Athy in kildare. While Mani the best British bassist of last 40 years (The Stone Roses, Primal Scream ) parents were from just up the street in Athy kildare also. The Irish have made huge impact in Britian also. But this doesn't fit into image of Ireland
But no Irish immigration there is no Beatles, no Segerat Pepper, no punk rock (John Lydon) no Smiths no Britpop ( Oasis).


But its in the USA where Ireland have made huge impact. Thats. where there has been genuine influence and impact in every sector of society from the law , the police , business, entertainment to the highest political offices in the land. But again the Brits dont really know this. The Brits no nothing about Ireland. If they knew just little a bit , we wouldn't have had the problem with the border. A bit more truth , a bit more knowleage , a bit more understanding of Ireland and eveything could have been so much different.

Worse than all of this they dont see Ireland as an Independent or legitimate nation with its own identity and culture. That they lost a part of their great British isles is a source of deep embarrassment so they either ignore Ireland or make fun of it.