Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

NotToScale

The problem is not just with Anglo Irish relations and I think it's very important to realise that England contains a lot more than one political tribe.

Right now you're looking at England (not the UK) tearing itself apart because you've one political tribe that sees the world through a lens of 19th century nationalism, imperialism and the class system and ethno nationalism.

They're the same people who would mock "The North" (of England) and have a stereotype for absolutely everything and everyone.

Unfortunately, due to whole load of circumstances coming together and a tabloid media that whips this along, we are where we are.

It's important to remember though that English politics has the odd Mo Mowlam as well the odd Boris Johnson.

Even within the Tory Party, you've people like John Major, who was a very good friend to Ireland over the years and isn't bound up in all of this crazy stuff.

We need to keep talking to the other facets of UK politics and English politics. The pragmatic side of it has been temporarily sat upon, but it will eventually re-emerge.

As I see it, we have no bridges to burn with the far right of the Tories and English supremacists. They've always hated or patronised us. I wouldn't be that bothered what they think of us.
However, we need to keep the lines open and the bridges intact with the rest of England and the UK which is still going to be our neighbour.

Sonny678

NotToScale wrote:

Right now you're looking at England (not the UK) tearing itself apart because you've one political tribe that sees the world through a lens of 19th century nationalism, imperialism and the class system and ethno nationalism.

liamtech wrote:

An aside but the problem of lack of self analysis is contributing north of the border too i believe. Particularly in the Unionist community, whereby they genuinely don't realize the economic/agricultural/Dairy/industrial disaster that will unfold in the event of No-Deal- I would be very hopeful that the DUP will lose support in NI, and perhaps the UUP/Alliance might make some gains

liamtech wrote:

In Fairness self analysis is problematic for our lot too. We are puzzled by the problems in the UK - and we scratch our heads when yet another shooting takes place in America, swiftly followed by prayers and 'you cannot change the second amendment' - .. and yet look at irish politics - Punishing Fianna Fail by voting for Fine Gael, and vice versa - with no actual opposition that has a different ideology - the left in shambles - and the latest trend of voting for large bunches of independents, is hardly accomplishing anything nationally.

liamtech wrote:

Very Interesting piece Sonny i really enjoyed reading it

Thanks for the comments liamtech. Yes self anyalsis is problematic for every country. U cannot see the wood from the trees u feel a sense of pride where you come from. But the Brits have never had a revolution like the French or Irish or American or German. Or never had a movement by young people in the states in 60s. The status quo in Uk has being along time in control. So the public are told lies, fabrications and misled to maintain the statue quo. And when there is tension its always class related. If you read British papers , books , history books , culture they lack a self criticism or self anyalsis or self reflection that the Irish or the French or the Americans have . In that in 60s in America a whole generation of young people questioned President, government, institutions, every part of American life the good and the bad. The Brits have never done this. Even Ireland in last 40 years peoole have questioned the church , the government, the establishment in a vigorous way.


Its hard to explain. This is a poor example. I will give it anyway. Eamon Dunphy goes on the late late Show and says Ireland is a kip. No one really bats eyelids if anything people are making a laugh of it. Many would agree. Say a famous sport presenter went on Johnaton Ross and said Uk was a kip ( but using a more British type word say he said ****hole or a dump). He wouldn't say it the first place. But if he did there would be national outrage. Oh how dare he say that about this great country. And the war would be brought up and talking how great they are. There would be calls for him to be deported and citizenship revoked. Ok I might be exaggerating but u get my meaning.


If u read books and newspapers on British culture or life or mentality there is a serious lack of criticism. Its non existant really. They don't go there. They have image of themselves that they are kind the good guys and never did anything wrong. That can be in many big countries in their mindset. But countries like the US or France they have a tradition of self criticism. The Brits dont really. If they do criticise it goes back to class.


Like calling themselves great. Australia doesnt call themselves Great Australia or Canada great Canada or Great Argentina or Great Japan. Im sure there is historical context to be called great. But placing Great ahead of Britian it shows a country that has notions. They thinks it a little better then everyone else. And the Brits do have notions. They are a country very much image obsessed eg type of car , where you go to school, your accent , how u dress.


But Cool Britiannia Version 2019 ( The Brexit Version ) is built on quick sand. They think this image of Britain is going to be trading with the world and Empire mark 2 , thats the image they have in.their heads. But Im afraid thats where it will stay, in their heads. But this fantasy they have undertaken the damage it will do Britians standing in the world , peoples lives , standard of living , peace in Northern Ireland and even negative impacts on this country is alarming and shocking and ridiculous in every way. This fantasy is a country coming of its hinges after 40 years of a media feeding public lies and a dangerous shower of morally bankrupt wierd artocratic tossers , gangsters and oil snakes business men running amok and sending a whole nation down a tunnel of self destruction. UK is finished as we know it.

theballz

The fact is, the British didn’t think about Northern Ireland when they voted to leave the EU. This was decision they made with no plan, Leo should not be entertaining a meeting with Johnson - travelling to the UK to meet him worries me (slightly.)

theballz

Britain against Brexit as poll of polls now say that most now want to stay.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-news-latest-britain-against-leaving-eu-as-poll-of-polls-says-most-now-want-to-stay-a4257476.html

Why are they so adamant about not having a second referendum?

Peregrinus

theballz wrote: »

Britain against Brexit as poll of polls now say that most now want to stay.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-news-latest-britain-against-leaving-eu-as-poll-of-polls-says-most-now-want-to-stay-a4257476.html

Why are they so adamant about not having a second referendum?

For the reason that you yourself point out; Brexit - whether May's deal or no-deal - would likely lose out to Remain. This is not an acceptable outcome to the unelected elite, so they won't permit it.

Fr Tod Umptious

josip wrote: »

Yes, I just read the BBC interview he gave to LK.
He's completely disconnected from reality.
"It's all the EU's fault if a no deal Brexit occurs because they don't understand what's going on in British politics at the moment."
Jeremy, even the British themselves don't understand what's going on in British politics right now.
He doesn't have any skin in the game right now, so he really must believe this stuff and isn't simply being a mouthpiece for someone?

A bit like Lord Lilly on Newsnight on Tuesday where he was saying the Johnson proposal should be accepted by the EU because it could get through the HOC

It all about their own political mess, and the EU should be acting in the best interest of internal British politics.

Such complete and utter arrogance and delusion.

Fr Tod Umptious

NIMAN wrote: »

Surely it's not too difficult to route from Europe directly to Ireland? Eventually.

Would be nice if our euro partners could look out for one of their own, eh!

Eventually being the operative word here.

Yes eventually we will see less landbridge traffic between Ireland and Europe but in the coming months with the whole thing still very much up in the air those involved in logistics would be doing very well to engineer a seamless transition.

johnnyskeleton

Flex wrote: »

Here’s part of the interview where he blames Ireland for refusing to allow the EU to be pragmatic (as he states that the EU is intransigent but wants a deal, Ireland is stopping them and we are also threatening the GFA by lacking statesman behavior) and his open letter (where, among other things, he blames the EU for not giving Cameron enough concessions before to referendum to win it).

Really pathetic and despicable

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-49986410

Could he not use his influence as a disfavoured Tory leader with his current colleagues in Westminster, as a more productive use of his time than writing to his former colleages in an "open letter" that is really for domestiv consumption only?

Even the phrase "Dear former colleague" sounds pathetic and I don't mean that in a pejorative sense - it sounds like hes trying to get their sympathy for his reduced situation. When he then go on to set out bluster and insult, whatever feeling is won through pathos is surely lost through his ascerbic tone!

lawred2

Peregrinus wrote: »

For the reason that you yourself point out; Brexit - whether May's deal or no-deal - would likely lose out to Remain. This is not an acceptable outcome to the unelected elite, so they won't permit it.

Can only a government table a motion for a second referendum? Even if a minority one! We've seen all manner of bills passed in parliament which didn't come from cabinet!

Russman

lawred2 wrote: »

Can only a government table a motion for a second referendum? Even if a minority one! We've seen all manner of bills passed in parliament which didn't come from cabinet!

I'd say the difficulty would be getting the opposition parties to agree to what options to put on the ballot maybe ?
Or they want Boris to go down in flames and own the disaster before they (in their own minds) pick up the pieces.

LeinsterDub

lawred2 wrote: »

Can only a government table a motion for a second referendum? Even if a minority one! We've seen all manner of bills passed in parliament which didn't come from cabinet!

No parliament is sovereign. It can do what it wants. Parliament has lent some of its power to a government for reasons of expediency but it can be changed at any time.

A second referendum was one of the options when they voted of about 10 options in the non binding votes to see what had support. It's unlikely a second referendum has the support of the house. Labour still fancy their chances of getting a a unicorn /deal

SeaBreezes

https://mobile.twitter.com/thetimes/status/1181816775236882432

The times making up stories ..

I Wonder if they realise yet that they are meeting the EU when they meet Leo.

Strazdas

theballz wrote: »

The fact is, the British didn’t think about Northern Ireland when they voted to leave the EU. This was decision they made with no plan, Leo should not be entertaining a meeting with Johnson - travelling to the UK to meet him worries me (slightly.)

I can't see Varadkar being backed into a corner. Johnson has no cards to play with and is in considerable trouble.....threatening Ireland with the effects of No Deal would just be laughed off at this stage.

VinLieger

With the meeting being so hush hush its going to be very interesting tonsee what comes out of it, also makes it rife for conspiracy theories

Peregrinus

lawred2 wrote: »

Can only a government table a motion for a second referendum? Even if a minority one! We've seen all manner of bills passed in parliament which didn't come from cabinet!

In theory Parliament could pass a bill for a second referendum, even if the Bill was not introduced or supported by the government. In practice, this is very unlikely, for three reasons.

First, the private members bills that have been put through against government wishes have all be short, focused and punchy, containing in effect one simple and short-term provision. A referendum bill would need to be long and complex, dealing with the questiont to be put, the timescale for the campaign, the appointment and funding of the pro- and anti-campaigns, etc. And it would also need to contain new measures to detect, regulate and prevent the abuses which, we now know, corrupted the last referendum. It's not realistic to think of a private member's bill, prepared at short notice without the assistance of the Parliamentary Draftsman's Office, dealing with all this satisfactorily.

Secondly, there is probably no majority in Parliament in favour of a second referendum. And once you try and narrow down the exact question to be put in a second referndum, I'm pretty sure that any majority you thought you had would start to splinter.

Thirdly, a referendum would take many months. Realistically, the UK has to have a functioning government that can get stuff through Parliament during that time; things can't go on as they are for more than a very short time. So a referendum can't happen until after a functioning government with a workable majority is installed, which almost certainly requires an election.

briany

What's this about Leadsom saying Johnson will send two letters. i.e

Letter 1: Extension please

Letter 2: Disregard

Shelga

If the Tory party policy officially becomes ‘charge towards no deal’, going into an election- what would happen to the moderate Tories who cannot support that? I imagine they number around 100?

Are they just all going to be deselected and replaced with new, previously unknown, hardcore No Dealers, who have never been MPs before?

Zubeneschamali

briany wrote: »

What's this about Leadsom saying Johnson will send two letters. i.e

Letter 1: Extension please

Letter 2: Disregard

Letter 2 is illegal and has no legal effect, so the EU gives an extension, It is well established law that the Government cannot frustrate an act of Parliament by tricks like this.


They are talking as if they have a Cunning Plan in hopes that the opposition will get worried and kick them out of Government before they have to ask for the extension.

lawred2

SeaBreezes wrote: »

https://mobile.twitter.com/thetimes/status/1181816775236882432

The times making up stories ..

I Wonder if they realise yet that they are meeting the EU when they meet Leo.

I would think that this is the most succinct response

https://mobile.twitter.com/lancewalton/status/1181953278197866496

Leroy42

I think it is a mistake for Leo to meet under these secret conditions.

We see from both the Merkel call and Damien Green meeting that No 10 is not adverse to putting put whatever message that suits their agenda.

I see no advantage to this meeting from Irelands POV.

mickoneill31

Leroy42 wrote: »

I think it is a mistake for Leo to meet under these secret conditions.

We see from both the Merkel call and Damien Green meeting that No 10 is not adverse to putting put whatever message that suits their agenda.

I see no advantage to this meeting from Irelands POV.

Id say Leo should hit the old record button on his phone when going into that meeting.

briany

Shelga wrote: »

If the Tory party policy officially becomes ‘charge towards no deal’, going into an election- what would happen to the moderate Tories who cannot support that? I imagine they number around 100?

Are they just all going to be deselected and replaced with new, previously unknown, hardcore No Dealers, who have never been MPs before?

The Tories are never going to run on a no-deal platform (officially). They'll run on a "We didn't want no deal, but the intransigent EU have left us with no choice" platform. They'll have delivered what was promised but take none of the blame.

farmchoice

mickoneill31 wrote: »

Id say Leo should hit the old record button on his phone when going into that meeting.

i was thinking the same thing!!

A Dub in Glasgo

Leroy42 wrote: »

I think it is a mistake for Leo to meet under these secret conditions.

We see from both the Merkel call and Damien Green meeting that No 10 is not adverse to putting put whatever message that suits their agenda.

I see no advantage to this meeting from Irelands POV.

I concur, why facilitate Johnson in private at all? They will be running misinformation to the papers again

ZeroThreat

SeaBreezes wrote: »

https://mobile.twitter.com/thetimes/status/1181816775236882432

The times making up stories ..

I Wonder if they realise yet that they are meeting the EU when they meet Leo.

The entire British media (print at least) is making up stories. And even the so-called broadsheets such as the Telegraph have fostered a situation where the most liked comments on their articles are typical of this (from a Paul Copson, whether that's a real name or not, who knows?) :

'I took a taxi ride yesterday and my driver was a highly intelligent Iraqi who’s family lived under Saddam Hussein’s dictatorial regime. I asked what it was like living there for ordinary people. In general terms he said that provided people kept out of politics they were left alone to get on with their lives. But it was “highly unwise to rock the boat”. In very loose terms I could not help but make parallels yesterday’s lucid conversation and this article. Quite clearly the UK is rocking the European boat and a price is being paid.'

Are people being disappeared or taken out the back to be shot if they're not clapping hard enough for the EU now?

Leroy42

mickoneill31 wrote: »

Id say Leo should hit the old record button on his phone when going into that meeting.

Won't matter. You can be sure Merkel has a record of the Johnson call but No 10 send their line out 1st and the media publicize it as if true.

Look at the times story about Leo broken promise. To any sane person this reads like No 10 trying to blame someone else for their much heralded proposal being shot down.

If Leo is having to provide evidence to counter what is being reported then the meeting would have been the failure I'm predicting.

UK have already gone back on their commitments so why have a secret meeting? I'm all for them talking, but this sounds really dubious and I'd allowing the UK to increase the idea that it is Ireland at the cause of the problem. Johnson should be talking to Barnier.

Me thinks Leo's hubris has got the better of him and he thinks he can sort Johnson out and be the hero.

Hurrache

briany wrote: »

What's this about Leadsom saying Johnson will send two letters. i.e

Letter 1: Extension please

Letter 2: Disregard

Can't happen, according to all the legal eagles.

Hurrache

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

I concur, why facilitate Johnson in private at all? They will be running misinformation to the papers again

Like I said earlier, someone needs to be the adult in all this, and it's never going to be the UK. If something positive comes out of it, the UK realises Leo is speaking for the majority of Northern Ireland, then great.

If not then we're just back to where we are now. Remember the peace protest was pretty much all secret meetings despite what was being said publicly by the parties involved.

farmchoice

Leroy42 wrote: »

Won't matter. You can be sure Merkel has a record of the Johnson call but No 10 send their line out 1st and the media publicize it as if true.

Look at the times story about Leo broken promise. To any sane person this reads like No 10 trying to blame someone else for their much heralded proposal being shot down.

If Leo is having to provide evidence to counter what is being reported then the meeting would have been the failure I'm predicting.

UK have already gone back on their commitments so why have a secret meeting? I'm all for them talking, but this sounds really dubious and I'd allowing the UK to increase the idea that it is Ireland at the cause of the problem. Johnson should be talking to Barnier.

Me thinks Leo's hubris has got the better of him and he thinks he can sort Johnson out and be the hero.

it is a strange one, i reckon the Irish have a reason for having this meeting that will become apparent later.

i doubt it is just leo trying to save the day. Number 10 has briefed pretty shamelessly against the Irish this week maybe merrion st have had enough and are going to get their retaliation in first this time.
or perhaps they are happy to take the blame from the torys and pretty much finally collapse the talks thereby forcing boris into taking a position on what he is going to do next.
all the anti Leo anti Irish thing in the papers is not doing one bit of harm to Leo or to Ireland, if anything it is good for Leo from a domestic point of view, the more the Brits deride him and lie about him the more respect he gets at home for not backing down.

joe40

farmchoice wrote: »

it is a strange one, i reckon the Irish have a reason for having this meeting that will become apparent later.

i doubt it is just leo trying to save the day. Number 10 has briefed pretty shamelessly against the Irish this week maybe merrion st have had enough and are going to get their retaliation in first this time.
or perhaps they are happy to take the blame from the torys and pretty much finally collapse the talks thereby forcing boris into taking a position on what he is going to do next.
all the anti Leo anti Irish thing in the papers is not doing one bit of harm to Leo or to Ireland, if anything it is good for Leo from a domestic point of view, the more the Brits deride him and lie about him the more respect he gets at home for not backing down.

The British public are getting the impression that Leo is some sort Republican mastermind scheming for a united Ireland. We all know nothing is further from the truth a united Ireland would scare the hell out of the political establishment in the south and also many in the north, from all sides, probably even Sinn Fein but they'll never admit it. The upheaval and uncertainty would be massive.

This narrative is pushed by the British Press and amplified by the DUP. It is not been challenged enough, even by the respected press in Britain.

I'm just waiting for the memes of Leo in full provo dress..