Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

Enzokk

CelticRambler wrote: »

As is anyone born to a British parent in Switzerland, Somalia or South Carolina.

This is specific to the De Souza case though where she identifies as Irish as is her right. The UK Home Office recognizes this, but still considers her a British Citizen as they say she has to renounce her citizenship first before she is treated as Irish when it comes to immigration rules relating to her partner.

Mr.Nice Guy

CelticRambler wrote: »

Besides, it's not like the DUP's most closely-held traditions even have a place "on the mainland" - you'd be hard pressed to find any British person who could tell you what an Orange parade was, unless maybe they confused it with the F du Citron on the Cd'Azur. (worth a visit, if ever you get the chance)

You would not be hard pressed to find someone in Scotland, particularly in Glasgow and the surrounding areas.

careless sherpa

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

In that the term is a perfect descriptive for the situation. Nobody was bothered about NI when voting to leave in 2016 so why would they be now?

It's why the term in Irish is sasamach, English out as it is a predominantly English decision. The Welsh were overlooked in the coinage of the term

Tell me how

Some in England finally catching on.

https://twitter.com/ThatTimWalker/status/1183402794704949248

Kudo's Mr Connelly and Fintan O'Toole, amongst many more.
I hope younger journalists, politicians, diplomats and diplomatic corps are learning from the exemplary work that has been done so far by many representing us.
Long may it last and hopefully we're not commenting in times to come 'Remember when we had people like.....' because things have taken a turn for the worse.

Beechwoodspark

Mary Lou McD quite bullish on RTÉ morning Ireland at the moment.

Kermit.de.frog

Bullish on what?

The Cove didn't seem so bullish earlier this morning.

FrancieBrady

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Bullish on what?

The Cove didn't seem so bullish earlier this morning.

Particularly bullish on accepting any veto for Unionists on the island of Ireland.
Nothing particularly new in what she said tbh.

Sierra Oscar

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Bullish on what?

The Cove didn't seem so bullish earlier this morning.

The optimism is being replaced with cynicism it seems.

I think the EU negotiation team are rightly fearful that the UK Government is making concessions just to advance the Brexit talks to the next stage without any real plan as to how they can deliver on those concessions.

All the talk this morning has been about how the UK Government has been unable to set out the technical details as to how they will implement their proposed customs and tariffs arrangements. Concessions are useless if they are not deliverable.

It seems to me the EU is gearing up for an extension - no agreement until the technical details have been nailed down.

Kermit.de.frog

DUP saying they want to be treated the exact same as England.

Boris has to dump the DUP or there won't be a deal the EU can agree to. He'll need to find the votes somewhere else.

Strazdas

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

The optimism is being replaced with cynicism it seems.

I think the EU negotiation team are rightly fearful that the UK Government is making concessions just to advance the Brexit talks to the next stage without any real plan as to how they can deliver on those concessions.

All the talk this morning has been about how the UK Government has been unable to set out the technical details as to how they will implement their proposed customs and tariffs arrangements. Concessions are useless if they are not deliverable.

It seems to me the EU is gearing up for an extension - no agreement until the technical details have been nailed down.

Once you hear that the talks are getting bogged down in ludicrous technical detail and off the wall proposals from the British side, you'd have to fear it's all going nowhere.

It sounds like the old "cake and eat it" stuff. The UK trying to get out of the backstop and replace it with a labyrinth of confusing technical mumbo jumbo.

I suspect the EU are just being polite in saying 'talks are continuing and intensifying' etc. The Brexiteers haven't changed their colours at all.

Russman

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

DUP saying they want to be treated the exact same as England.

Boris has to dump the DUP or there won't be a deal the EU can agree to. He'll need to find the votes somewhere else.

I honestly can't see him getting the votes to get ANY deal through the HoC at this stage. I could be completely misreading it of course, but it seems like revoke and/or a 2nd referendum are coming more and more into play (albeit still very much on the sidelines). I suspect many remainers who were maybe reluctantly hoping for the softest Brexit possible are now thinking they might just be able to stop the whole thing.

As an aside, with all the election permutations talk of Boris getting a majority if he delivers Brexit by 31st Oct, or being savaged by the BP if he doesn't, or fighting a GE based on a deal he just needs the HoC to approve etc etc., there seems to be no scenario that Labour win a GE, or is there ?, if so, what they heck are they (or even just Momentum) persisting with Corbyn for ?

Professor Moriarty

Strazdas wrote: »

Once you hear that the talks are getting bogged down in ludicrous technical detail and off the wall proposals from the British side, you'd have to fear it's all going nowhere.

It sounds like the old "cake and eat it" stuff. The UK trying to get out of the backstop and replace it with a labyrinth of confusing technical mumbo jumbo.

I suspect the EU are just being polite in saying 'talks are continuing and intensifying' etc. The Brexiteers haven't changed their colours at all.

Main headline in The Telegraph, which has become the Brexiteer newsheet, "Fury as EU demands more Brexit concessions from Britain". Didn't take long before the blame game started up again.

Beechwoodspark

If corbyn was installed as a temporary PM is there any chance he could revoke art 50 at a stroke?

VinLieger

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

If corbyn was installed as a temporary PM is there any chance he could revoke art 50 at a stroke?

I think since triggering it needed a HoC vote then revoking would need similar and he wouldn't likely have the votes for it.

BASHIR

That and the fact Corbyn is a brexiteer albeit a different kind

Christy42

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

DUP saying they want to be treated the exact same as England.

Boris has to dump the DUP or there won't be a deal the EU can agree to. He'll need to find the votes somewhere else.

They aren't enough anyway so they may as well be dropped. However enough people seem to be against a deal on principle to stop it anyway.

Robert McGrath

Rumours that the UK Home Office are gearing up for internment 2.0 if there’s no deal:

https://mobile.twitter.com/TomWills/status/1181528753400401920

trellheim

Yes I was hearing mumbles about the WA A50 on twitter ( veto for NI ) but it has since subsided ... no doubt someone stuck their head out of the underpass ( lol) and told them to shut the fk up

the telegraph going back on message is slightly worrying but they do need to sell papers.

looks a bit like a schrodinger brexit at the moment .... Boris Johnson can claim what he likes until they have to present detailed written proposals to the rest of the EU and that moment is fast approaching

BarryD2

Strazdas wrote: »

Once you hear that the talks are getting bogged down in ludicrous technical detail and off the wall proposals from the British side, you'd have to fear it's all going nowhere.

It sounds like the old "cake and eat it" stuff. The UK trying to get out of the backstop and replace it with a labyrinth of confusing technical mumbo jumbo.

I suspect the EU are just being polite in saying 'talks are continuing and intensifying' etc. The Brexiteers haven't changed their colours at all.

Looks like the last few days have been a pointless diversion. Which make you wonder why Varadkar got involved in this scenario, knowing the limitations. Was it just a case of being seen to do something to help the UK?

There is a reasonably clear path from the EU perspective at the moment: Boris waffles on but can't rewrite the withdrawal treaty, the HoC insists that the Benn Act be implemented, an extension is sought and given, a general election follows and possible second referendum on matters relating.

While Varadkar might have felt he was being helpful, really what he's achieved is to bolster the hard Tory line that the UK was prepared to be flexible but that the EU bully boys wouldn't agree. And in doing so, bolstered their election campaign.

FrancieBrady

BarryD2 wrote: »

Looks like the last few days have been a pointless diversion. Which make you wonder why Varadkar got involved in this scenario, knowing the limitations. Was it just a case of being seen to do something to help the UK?

There is a reasonably clear path from the EU perspective at the moment: Boris waffles on but can't rewrite the withdrawal treaty, the HoC insists that the Benn Act be implemented, an extension is sought and given, a general election follows and possible second referendum on matters relating.

While Varadkar might have felt he was being helpful, really what he's achieved is to bolster the hard Tory line that the UK was prepared to be flexible but that the EU bully boys wouldn't agree. And in doing so, bolstered their election campaign.

You cannot affect how the UK want the 'talks' to be perceived. Varadkar tried to broker a deal, as he should have done.

Who cares how Brexiteers wish to see that, they are going to do what they want anyway.
Those who are important will see it for what it is.

trellheim

Which make you wonder why Varadkar got involved in this scenario, knowing the limitations. Was it just a case of being seen to do something to help the UK?

avoid blame game in a post-talks-failure-general-election usual poisonous atmosphere

J Mysterio

careless sherpa wrote: »

It's why the term in Irish is sasamach, English out as it is a predominantly English decision. The Welsh were overlooked in the coinage of the term

I hadn't heard that before, brilliant.

farmchoice

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You cannot affect how the UK want the 'talks' to be perceived. Varadkar tried to broker a deal, as he should have done.

Who cares how Brexiteers wish to see that, they are going to do what they want anyway.
Those who are important will see it for what it is.

ya in fairness to leo he has played a very straight bat through this whole debacle as have the EU.

so best to engage the uk in an honest up front way, plus the manner in which the UK government and media will spin it is out of the hands of the EU and at the end of the day its not really a problem for the EU. the only people being codded by the whole thing are the Brits themselves, Brit propaganda isn't having any effect on the populations of Slovenia or Belgium etc and remarkably its have the opposite effect of what its intended for in Ireland.

Zubeneschamali

trellheim wrote: »

avoid blame game in a post-talks-failure-general-election usual poisonous atmosphere

No, there is a genuine desire on the part of Ireland and the EU to avoid a No Deal Brexit, because it will cost us a shedload of money and destabilise the North.

This last-ditch effort probably won't work, and Varadkar knew that going in, and both he and Coveney have been saying cautious things ever since, but if you don't try, you'll never know for sure.

And what does it cost us? A few more days talk.

trellheim

No, there is a genuine desire on the part of Ireland and the EU to avoid a No Deal Brexit, because it will cost us a shedload of money and destabilise the North

Also a fair point

ancapailldorcha

careless sherpa wrote: »

It's why the term in Irish is sasamach, English out as it is a predominantly English decision. The Welsh were overlooked in the coinage of the term

I thought it was Sasanach as that's what I remember from school. Interesting point, though.

ToBeFrank123

While Johnson doesn't need the DUP to prop up a government that is now on the way out, he probably will need them for a Brexit deal, as they represent a 20 vote swing.

gooch2k9

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I thought it was Sasanach as that's what I remember from school. Interesting point, though.

Sasanach is "English", the people. Sasamach is a portmanteau of Sasanach and amach(out).

LeinsterDub

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I thought it was Sasanach as that's what I remember from school. Interesting point, though.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Sasamach

It's a portmanteau of Sasana and Amach

lawred2

BarryD2 wrote: »

Looks like the last few days have been a pointless diversion. Which make you wonder why Varadkar got involved in this scenario, knowing the limitations. Was it just a case of being seen to do something to help the UK?

There is a reasonably clear path from the EU perspective at the moment: Boris waffles on but can't rewrite the withdrawal treaty, the HoC insists that the Benn Act be implemented, an extension is sought and given, a general election follows and possible second referendum on matters relating.

While Varadkar might have felt he was being helpful, really what he's achieved is to bolster the hard Tory line that the UK was prepared to be flexible but that the EU bully boys wouldn't agree. And in doing so, bolstered their election campaign.

Because he is operating in good faith.

When all this crumbles - only one side will repeatedly have been seen to have been operating in bad faith. And they will ultimately have to pay the piper for that.

The EU now knows what Ireland learned the hard way - you simply can't trust the words that emanate from a Tory mouth. EU/UK talks post Brexit are going to be grim.