Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

Joe_ Public

20silkcut wrote: »

The further this goes on the more I think Fintan o toole is right. The fact they were never invaded in any kind of recent history had led to this unbelievable unwarranted hubris.
Every other European country has been humiliated and subjugated at some point in their recent history. Which surely has contributed to the spirit of Co-operation upon which the European Union was founded.
Every other European country has a sense of pragmatism and vulnerability that encourages the spirit of better together.
It’s completely absent in the UK. Even as you highlighted , amongst a lot of remainers. There is this stupefying concept of if it’s not British it’s not right.

He is absolutely right. It's the old riff along the lines of, if you say your favourite film is The Dambusters, then you are extremely likely to be a hard brexiteer, whereas if you were actually IN The Dambusters and flew one of the planes on that suicidal mission, you would be almost certain to be an ardent remainer.

Mr.Nice Guy

Look at the disrespect here:

https://twitter.com/HMRadioUK/status/1183764320955654144

Really highlights how divided Westminster is, and how England and Scotland are literally heading in different directions.

Professor Moriarty

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Jesus, can't believe I have to explain this to you.

Let me use a simple analogy.

Hitler made a threat to invade the UK in 1940. Well known fact. Now if I point that out, does that mean I made a threat to invade the UK?

That's literally what you are saying.

I can sense anger on this thread, but making sh*t up like No Deal is your bargaining chip just doesn't wash. Johnson and the ERG have repeatedly said its their bargaining chip. You know this.

Ah Jaysus. Hitler? Seriously?

To be honest, you're completely ignoring the substance of my posts so I'll leave you off.

Strazdas

20silkcut wrote: »

The further this goes on the more I think Fintan o toole is right. The fact they were never invaded in any kind of recent history had led to this unbelievable unwarranted hubris.
Every other European country has been humiliated and subjugated at some point in their recent history. Which surely has contributed to the spirit of Co-operation upon which the European Union was founded.
Every other European country has a sense of pragmatism and vulnerability that encourages the spirit of better together.
It’s completely absent in the UK. Even as you highlighted , amongst a lot of remainers. There is this stupefying concept of if it’s not British it’s not right.

They have no concept at all that things could go very badly wrong for them and that their economy could collapse. It's in their heads that bad things only happen to "foreigners" and the UK will always be safe from upheaval and chaos.

Their media and politicians are playing with fire. The Brexit phenomenon wouldn't happen in any other country in Europe, as all the other states have all too recent memories of terrible setbacks and extreme hardship.

J Mysterio

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Look at the disrespect here:

https://twitter.com/HMRadioUK/status/1183764320955654144

Really highlights how divided Westminster is, and how England and Scotland are literally heading in different directions.

That is shocking and apalling. Hugely disrespectful behaviour and 'unparliamentary' if I may say.

WomanSkirtFan8

J Mysterio wrote: »

That is shocking and apalling. Hugely disrespectful behaviour and 'unparliamentary' if I may say.

just watched it. appalling behaviour. no wonder the scots want out. Looking at that, one could hardly blame them.:rolleyes:

A Dub in Glasgo

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Look at the disrespect here:

https://twitter.com/HMRadioUK/status/1183764320955654144

Really highlights how divided Westminster is, and how England and Scotland are literally heading in different directions.

No surprise, the English MPs have done that for years

devnull

So now there's talk that it could be delayed until next week before the talks are finished, which would take us past the point of which Boris is supposed to send a letter to Brussels.

I'm starting to think the conspiracy theory of deliberately pushing it back and back and back to prevent a letter being sent may not actually be a conspiracy theory after all and is an actual tactic.

Tories say there's no need for a letter as there won't be no deal, the day for letter passes, talks keep going, BANG right at the last minute talks collapse, and by which time it's too late to take the matter to the supreme court and it's no deal.

Parliament has to act this week if there is no deal by the time indicated that the letter has to be sent by, believing Johnson saying talks are still ongoing and standing idly by should not be an option.

Joe_ Public

devnull wrote: »

So now there's talk that it could be delayed until next week before the talks are finished, which would take us past the point of which Boris is supposed to send a letter to Brussels.

I'm starting to think the conspiracy theory of deliberately pushing it back and back and back to prevent a letter being sent may not actually be a conspiracy theory after all and is an actual tactic.

Tories say there's no need for a letter as there won't be no deal, the day for letter passes, talks keep going, BANG right at the last minute talks collapse, and by which time it's too late to take the matter to the supreme court and it's no deal.

Parliament has to act this week if there is no deal by the time indicated that the letter has to be sent by, believing Johnson saying talks are still ongoing and standing idly by should not be an option.

The law says the letter has to be written and sent by the 19th in the event of no deal being passed through the house. I dont see how anyone can actually tell them it's ok to hold off for a week or so. That's just ridiculous. It's the law so either comply with it or suffer the consequences.

devnull

Joe_ Public wrote: »

The law says the letter has to be written and sent by the 19th in the event of no deal being passed through the house. I dont see how anyone can actually tell them it's ok to hold off for a week or so. That's just ridiculous. It's the law so either comply with it or suffer the consequences.

Simon Coveney is now saying they might need until next week now and should be given more time.

It just seems that from stuff I have read in the UK, that there might be apetite to give Johnson a few more days before trying to enforce the letter to be sent in the spirit of trying to get a deal over the line.

moon2

devnull wrote: »

Simon Coveney is now saying they might need until next week now and should be given more time.

It just seems that from stuff I have read in the UK, that there might be apetite to give Johnson a few more days before trying to enforce the letter to be sent in the spirit of trying to get a deal over the line.

Sending a letter does not preclude a deal from being enacted. I believe the terms of the extension also allow the UK to exit the extension early in the event a deal is agreed and passed.

The only reason to avoid sending the letter would be if you're actually aiming for no deal.

Joe_ Public

devnull wrote: »

Simon Coveney is now saying they might need until next week now and should be given more time.

It just seems that from stuff I have read in the UK, that there might be apetite to give Johnson a few more days before trying to enforce the letter to be sent in the spirit of trying to get a deal over the line.

Coveney's latest comments are indeed quite notable, so maybe there is some flexibility there. But there's still the bottom line that they'd need extension just to get legislation through, even if a deal was passed this week, so i'm not certain there'd be any fundamental change to the benn act and can you still trust johnson with any of this, even if the likes of Coveney are offering mollifying words? Not sure on that one to be honest.

L1011

Both extensions to date have allowed the UK to leave immediately on agreeing a deal. A futher one won't change that

Water John

Coveney nor the EU can't change the Benn Act. It's needed either way, so just send it.

Infini

At this point Boris has little choice but to send one because even IF and I stress IF they somehow manage to pull a deal out of their arse they still have to pass relevant legislation and laws prior to leaving in order to ensure a smooth transition.

If he doesnt send it it'll be obvious to all his plan is to crash out.

Thargor

Didn't they shout at him to go back to Skye or Glasgow or somewhere this time last year aswell.

fash

Jim2007 wrote: »

And what do yo actually do the day after No Deal? How are you going to deal with the fact that you have lost trade agreements covering 92% of your exports, preferential access to a wealthy market covering 48% of your exports, loss of passporting of financial services, a failure to get trade schedules agreed at the WTO, No US trade deal, no EU trade deal, no deals with Canada and Japan, no tariffs on imports thus exposing you economy to unrestricted imports from low cost countries such as China etc???

How much pain are you willing to take - tax increases, job losses etc... and more importantly how much do you think the great British public will accept?

Well I'm Irish so a no deal affects about 8-10% of exports at all and much of that is relatively unaffected.

A Dub in Glasgo

Thargor wrote: »

Didn't they shout at him to go back to Skye or Glasgow or somewhere this time last year aswell.

Nicholas Soames said it

https://twitter.com/bbcpolitics/status/1075050916854804480?lang=en-gb

Hurrache

Donaldson has popped his head above the parapet a couple of times today, this his latest take. Factual, or trying to lie himself into relevance at this point?

[url]

https://twitter.com/DarranMarshall/status/1183814507262554112?s=19[/url]

fash

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Wow, you finally concede I was right. Took you long enough and only after you threw plenty of insults out.

There will be a serious short and medium term impact to Ireland.

Any form of brexit will have serious short and medium term impacts. Ireland has only 4 options: stop brexit from happening at all, force a soft brexit, if there is a hard brexit ensure that GFA is respected, otherwise no deal and wait for UK to disintegrate.

lola85

All this talk of loyalist threats of violence is shocking from the DUP, trying to scaremonger.

It’s been shadowed by a deal maybe happening but nonetheless should not be forgotten.

prawnsambo

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Sorry you are wrong. We are only in the WA phase now. A trade deal has to come after.

Without a proper WA, we revert to WTA rules. That's tariffs on our products going into the UK, one of our biggest markets. Its also tarrifs coming the other way, that means an increase in the prices of goods that come from the UK.

We need the WA to get us to the trade deal, otherwise its WTA tarrifs.

I can't believe there are some people such as Vinlieger who think Ireland wont be badly affected by No Deal.

First of all it's WTO not WTA. Secondly, you completely misunderstood me. But for clarity, here goes again. A trade deal will take years*. A lot more than the transition period. So after that, it's likely to be the EU external tariff regime. And during the TP, the UK can do trade deals, which may impact quality/price and make it harder for us to continue to sell to them anyway.

*WTO negotiators talking to Jason Hunter, reckoned that an EU/UK trade deal would take about eight years.

fash

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Coveney's latest comments are indeed quite notable, so maybe there is some flexibility there. But there's still the bottom line that they'd need extension just to get legislation through, even if a deal was passed this week, so i'm not certain there'd be any fundamental change to the benn act and can you still trust johnson with any of this, even if the likes of Coveney are offering mollifying words? Not sure on that one to be honest.

My take is that the EU is using Johnson's deadline against him. "We can agree to getting it finished by this date... if you accept our conditions"

gooch2k9

Hurrache wrote: »

Donaldson has popped his head above the parapet a couple of times today, this his latest take. Factual, or trying to lie himself into relevance at this point?

[url]

https://twitter.com/DarranMarshall/status/1183814507262554112?s=19[/url]

The latter. Standard DUP playbook, maintain the pretence of control. They did the same stuff when RHI first broke, stating there would be no public enquiry.

If UK cabinet aren't being updated regularly on talks then the DUP definitely won't be.

briany

lola85 wrote: »

All this talk of loyalist threats of violence is shocking from the DUP, trying to scaremonger.

It’s been shadowed by a deal maybe happening but nonetheless should not be forgotten.

I don't really see it as scaremongering. There should be a legitimate concern that placing a border anywhere around NI will lead to an uptick in violence. One of the reasons why Brexit is such a bad idea in the first place.

BonnieSituation

lola85 wrote: »

All this talk of loyalist threats of violence is shocking from the DUP, trying to scaremonger.

It’s been shadowed by a deal maybe happening but nonetheless should not be forgotten.

It's not shocking at all. But we shouldn't buy into it.

lawred2

Joe_ Public wrote: »

The law says the letter has to be written and sent by the 19th in the event of no deal being passed through the house. I dont see how anyone can actually tell them it's ok to hold off for a week or so. That's just ridiculous. It's the law so either comply with it or suffer the consequences.

What consequences will those be?

Seriously?

Muahahaha

BonnieSituation wrote: »

It's not shocking at all. But we shouldn't buy into it.

Well if the UDA/UVF are threatening bombs in Limerick I'd hope the Gardai are taking it very seriously because they are capable of it.

threeball

Watching a grand designs rerun here from before the recession, they lost their mortgage as the economy tanked. The notable thing was the guys reasoning, "Everything was in place but then the situation in Europe got worse and worse and they removed our approval"

Just shows the mentality. It's like Britain was immune to the recession and it was all down to those pesky foreigners.

threeball

lawred2 wrote: »

What consequences will those be?

Seriously?

Well BoJo is breaking the law at that stage so could technically be imprisoned but unlikely