Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

FrancieBrady

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Game changer if it happened. Means they could bring back bill with a question mark over extension hanging over it which might concentrate a few more minds. Opposition might have to think about vonc in that scenario but not guaranteed to win it which sounds crazy when you consider this administration but thats where we are.

And the EU stands accused forever of intefereing directly.

Not going to happen. I think the EU were far too open all through this to granting extensions.

Had they not had the comfort blanket of certainty on that, it might have focused them a bit.

liamtech

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Game changer if it happened. Means they could bring back bill with a question mark over extension hanging over it which might concentrate a few more minds. Opposition might have to think about vonc in that scenario but not guaranteed to win it which sounds crazy when you consider this administration but thats where we are.

That would be the case - IF!

• the HOC had not just voted for an amendment that effectively shelves accepting of a deal until all the fine-print/legislation is in place - The Letwin amendment prevents accepting a deal until the necessary legislation is in place

I agree its a wreckless move by the EU (although GOD I FEEL FOR EM) but i think Letwin could be the deer in the headlines of this

BUt i imagine its nonsense anyway so - we just have to wait and see

Rjd2

Pretty ****ing grim the people roaring abuse at Mogg with his son and Diane Abbot among others. Neither side showing much class outside whatsoever.

Strazdas

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And the EU stands accused forever of intefereing directly.

Not going to happen. I think the EU were far too open all through this to granting extensions.

Had they not had the comfort blanket of certainty on that, it might have focused them a bit.

Nobody could have anticipated how indecisive and shambolic the UK Parliament would be.

Itssoeasy

Rjd2 wrote: »

Pretty ****ing grim the people roaring abuse at Mogg with his son and Diane Abbot among others. Neither side showing much class outside whatsoever.

Where outside parliament ? Well Diane abbot seems to get dogs abuse a lot anyway. I think the lack of class is linked the fatigue over this whole thing. People on both sides seem genuinely pissed off and acting in a way that isn't rational.

FrancieBrady

John Bercow wrote:

The govt is not the arbiter of what is orderly. That cannot be so,. And it is not so. And it will not be so. And there can be no argument about that."

Are we now waiting on a decision from Bercow? What happens next?

Joe_ Public

liamtech wrote: »

That would be the case - IF!

• the HOC had not just voted for an amendment that effectively shelves accepting of a deal until all the fine-print/legislation is in place - The Letwin amendment prevents accepting a deal until the necessary legislation is in place

I agree its a wreckless move by the EU (although GOD I FEEL FOR EM) but i think Letwin could be the deer in the headlines of this

BUt i imagine its nonsense anyway so - we just have to wait and see

It could be nonsense, it was just a flyer from sky eu correspondent though he is obviously speaking to his sources so who knows? Heard it a couple of other places too, will only believe it when i see it all the same.

Does letwin preclude them from bringing back mv on monday? Not sure it does. They can rush the legislation through very quickly and depends then how opposition go about counter measures. All very speculative it has to be said.

liamtech

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Are we now waiting on a decision from Bercow? What happens next?

I think so - im not sure its kinda hard to follow

What is true is that there are bound to be many more days like this in the next 2 weeks!

Same time same place guys!

Rjd2

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Where outside parliament ? Well Diane abbot seems to get dogs abuse a lot anyway. I think the lack of class is linked the fatigue over this whole thing. People on both sides seem genuinely pissed off and acting in a way that isn't rational.

https://twitter.com/TomBoadle/status/1185571697090531328

https://twitter.com/39_stephs/status/1185571331980566530

I know some are saying Mogg bringing his kid is cynical, but still leave him alone.

Abbot is a poor politician but the abuse she gets is so unpleasant and relentless. I do fear some day some loon will try and attack her. Obviously hope I am wrong.

Itssoeasy

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Are we now waiting on a decision from Bercow? What happens next?

He said he's going to get advice and make a statement sometime Monday afternoon.

marno21

It doesn't surprise me that people are hostile towards a gentleman intent on wrecking his country in the pursuit of the personal gain and those of his chums.

Joe_ Public

Very regrettable scenes. But you'll always get a few outliers unable to maintain the high moral ground.

McGiver

Enzokk wrote:

Well they cannot do anything without approval from Westminster so even if they organized a vote and it was 80%-20% for independence, unless they have the approval from the PM they are stuck in the Union.

I know that, but they could ramp up the rhetoric, significantly. They could filibuster as well. Many options. They're just ranting and the Tories know that they won't do it anything else and simply ignore them. Time to remove the gloves ihmo.

liamtech

Joe_ Public wrote: »

It could be nonsense, it was just a flyer from sky eu correspondent though he is obviously speaking to his sources so who knows? Heard it a couple of other places too, will only believe it when i see it all the same.

Does letwin preclude them from bringing back mv on monday? Not sure it does. They can rush the legislation through very quickly and depends then how opposition go about counter measures. All very speculative it has to be said.

im not sure it does prevent it from coming back for a vote - but it does kinda prevent vote from being meaningful

Letwin effectively says HOC cannot accept a deal without first ensuring all legislation is sorted

Which triggers Benn act, which means extension - which means election? VONC?

Tbh i am getting mighty fed up with the oppositions intransigence -

• all the opposition parties (bar the DUP if you count them as opp) dont want brexit
• want an election
• some if not all would now endorse a 2ndref
• AND they have the numbers now it seems to VONC, GNU, and force through either an extension, and or a general election, AND OR A SECOND REF

but they wont.. why?

Cause

• Swinson hates Corbyn
• Berger/Umunna et al Hate Corbyn
• Corbyn hates the above
• The SNP hate everyone but will work with anyone to get Indyref2
• The independents hate most of the above unless they are voting to delay (not cancel) a deal, in which case they love them
• Tory Rebels hate some but not all of the above, but cannot bring themselves to back anyone over the line

Its insane - this could be done this week, but just like the Tories ALL OF THE ABOVE, not just Corbyn, are playing politics and party first nonsense

My opinion anyway

Itssoeasy

marno21 wrote: »

It doesn't surprise me that people are hostile towards a gentleman intent on wrecking his country in the pursuit of the personal gain and those of his chums.

But he's there with his son. I don't agree with his position but I think all politicians actually have a right to not be harassed or have unsavoury things yelled at them.

Itssoeasy

Rjd2 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/TomBoadle/status/1185571697090531328

https://twitter.com/39_stephs/status/1185571331980566530

I know some are saying Mogg bringing his kid is cynical, but still leave him alone.

Abbot is a poor politician but the abuse she gets is so unpleasant and relentless. I do fear some day some loon will try and attack her. Obviously hope I am wrong.

Well I hope no politician here or in the UK are attacked by any one regardless of their positions. But I mean Jo Cox was killed so unfortunately it's not a case where we are hoping it doesn't happen, it already has.

Thargor

I'm supposed to be watching the sunset at the Temple of Posoideon in southern Greece but I spent the time refreshing Twitter and this thread instead

Joe_ Public

liamtech wrote: »

im not sure it does prevent it from coming back for a vote - but it does kinda prevent vote from being meaningful

Letwin effectively says HOC cannot accept a deal without first ensuring all legislation is sorted

Which triggers Benn act, which means extension - which means election? VONC?

Tbh i am getting mighty fed up with the oppositions intransigence -

• all the opposition parties (bar the DUP if you count them as opp) dont want brexit
• want an election
• some if not all would now endorse a 2ndref
• AND they have the numbers now it seems to VONC, GNU, and force through either an extension, and or a general election, AND OR A SECOND REF

but they wont.. why?

Cause

• Swinson hates Corbyn
• Berger/Umunna et al Hate Corbyn
• Corbyn hates the above
• The SNP hate everyone but will work with anyone to get Indyref2
• The independents hate most of the above unless they are voting to delay (not cancel) a deal, in which case they love them
• Tory Rebels hate some but not all of the above, but cannot bring themselves to back anyone over the line

Its insane - this could be done this week, but just like the Tories ALL OF THE ABOVE, not just Corbyn, are playing politics and party first nonsense

My opinion anyway

Yes opposition are all playing politics so its not straightforward but they've got time yet so wouldnt panic. Thing is they'll need tory votes for eithwr vonc or 2nd ref so that makes it tricky.

I thought earlier thst letwin ruled out mv but is that actually 100%? Why would JRM say theyll bring in monday if it wasnt binding? Just seems odd to me. Just have to wait and see what eu next move is ans why Johnson remains so bullish, whether just empty bluster or something more substantial.

Rjd2

marno21 wrote: »

It doesn't surprise me that people are hostile towards a gentleman intent on wrecking his country in the pursuit of the personal gain and those of his chums.

So calling someone a Nazi which I am pretty sure he isn't despite his flaws is justified?

GM228

I guess our European friends were watching the HoC live today also:-

https://twitter.com/AndrewDuffEU/status/1185589692563099648?s=19

marno21

Itssoeasy wrote: »

But he's there with his son. I don't agree with his position but I think all politicians actually have a right to not be harassed or have unsavoury things yelled at them.

Rjd2 wrote: »

So calling someone a Nazi which I am pretty sure he isn't despite his flaws is justified?

I don't agree with the behaviour. I was simply pointing out that someone who engages in that kind of "politics" is going to open themselves up to hostility. It shouldn't come to him as a surprise. And if he wanted to shield his children from it, it would be wise not to walk through a street with ongoing protests against his behaviour.

brickster69

Obviously the EU will accept an extension. The only deal they cannot accept is no deal. Backstop gone and withdrawal agreement opened which they said they would never do. Bluffers thrown it's hand away already

marno21

Rjd2 wrote: »

So calling someone a Nazi which I am pretty sure he isn't despite his flaws is justified?

Perhaps the word "Nazi" is excessive, but illegally shutting down Parliament in order to ram through something for his own benefit which harms the economy of the country whilst constantly talking out of the other side of his mouth about "democracy" might rile some people into calling him one.

thecretinhop

marno21 wrote: »

Perhaps the word "Nazi" is excessive, but illegally shutting down Parliament in order to ram through something for his own benefit which harms the economy of the country whilst constantly talking out of the other side of his mouth about "democracy" might rile some people into calling him one.

so its ok then,?

Joe_ Public

brickster69 wrote: »

Obviously the EU will accept an extension. The only deal they cannot accept is no deal. Backstop gone and withdrawal agreement opened which they said they would never do. Bluffers thrown it's hand away already

Its kind of a bit sad though that Johnson's team are taking it as some kind of masterstroke that the eu reopened the WA. To do what? To go back to a position they were happy to accept 2 years ago and which was a major UK concession. I mean, some victory, right? And now we're back to keep no deal on table, maximum leverage angle again. When the uk learns how to negotiate in a mature, grown up fashion, maybe it can stop getting itself into these kind of messes.

Professor Moriarty

brickster69 wrote: »

Obviously the EU will accept an extension. The only deal they cannot accept is no deal. Backstop gone and withdrawal agreement opened which they said they would never do. Bluffers thrown it's hand away already

We'll see.

FrancieBrady

brickster69 wrote: »

Obviously the EU will accept an extension. The only deal they cannot accept is no deal. Backstop gone and withdrawal agreement opened which they said they would never do. Bluffers thrown it's hand away already

Backstop gone and withdrawal agreement opened which they said they would never do...UNLESS the UK came with serious alternatives...which they did. Totally consistent from the EU.

Professor Moriarty

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Backstop gone and withdrawal agreement opened which they said they would never do...UNLESS the UK came with serious alternatives...which they did. Totally consistent from the EU.

In fact, under Johnson's deal, the NI arrangement is worse for unionism. But don't tell anyone.

liamtech

Rjd2 wrote: »

So calling someone a Nazi which I am pretty sure he isn't despite his flaws is justified?

Originally Posted by Itssoeasy View Post
But he's there with his son. I don't agree with his position but I think all politicians actually have a right to not be harassed or have unsavoury things yelled at them.

I think getting that abusive towards anyone is horrible and disgusting - and i hate to see it happen


... however

"I've never heard such humbug in all my life." Boris Johnson

"Surrender Act" Boris Johnson et all

"the best way to honor the memory of Jo Cox and indeed the best way to bring this country together would be, I think, to get Brexit done." Boris Johnson

Given all of this nonsense from the Tories

" They sowed the wind, and now they are going to reap the whirlwind." Bomber Harris

FrancieBrady

Beth Rigby reporting this.

https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1185592504093159426