Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

10000maniacs

prawnsambo wrote: »

He climbed down from the backstop to a front stop. If you need to know how much like the original NI backstop it is, ask the DUP.

Varadkar was doing his maths.
The last thing Ireland wants is to be shipping in food from France by boat.
Also this deal is the only way of achieving no hard border on the island of Ireland and keeping both Johnson and the EU happy too. If the DUP were given a veto on customs checks in the Irish sea, there would be a hard border in 4 years.

prawnsambo

Christy42 wrote: »

I mean. We called it by a different name if you feel that is a climb down?

The UK can't cancel it. It has to be NI so that worry is gone. There is no time limit on it. It will be out of the customs union.. but have it's laws dictated to it by Brussels with no voice at the table.

And they're insulated from whatever sh1t show develops when eventually the 'mainland' falls off the edge of the transition period. I mean the nutters there are even now conjuring up a 'cunning plan' where they can do this and get their hard brexit. Unless people believe that brexit will actually lead to the sunlit uplands populated by unicorns, the reality of what it actually means will end all talk of following them into he abyss.

CptMackey

What's the play now? Is a no deal no a bigger possibility. Its fierce confusing watching Westminster these days.

prawnsambo

CptMackey wrote: »

What's the play now? Is a no deal no a bigger possibility. Its fierce confusing watching Westminster these days.

Not really. The cunning plan from the headbangers is that they've realised (eventually - I mean this was obvious from the start) that if they don't have a FTA agreed by the end of the TP (and they won't), instead of asking to extend the TP, they just fall out. So concrete brexit at the end of 2020.

prawnsambo

10000maniacs wrote: »

Varadkar was doing his maths.
The last thing Ireland wants is to be shipping in food from France by boat.
Also this deal is the only way of achieving no hard border on the island of Ireland and keeping both Johnson and the EU happy too. If the DUP were given a veto on customs checks in the Irish sea, there would be a hard border in 4 years.

Yeah. We have until the end of 2020 (at least) to get more ships. I'm not really joking here, this is the reality. Develop new markets for our beef and cheese etc. and just use the time to divest ourselves of any and all dependencies on the UK market. Have you looked at the stuff that's appearing on supermarket shelves lately? A lot of continental brands appearing.

brickster69

10000maniacs wrote: »

Varadkar was doing his maths.
The last thing Ireland wants is to be shipping in food from France by boat.
Also this deal is the only way of achieving no hard border on the island of Ireland and keeping both Johnson and the EU happy too. If the DUP were given a veto on customs checks in the Irish sea, there would be a hard border in 4 years.

Varadkar was obviously told what to do for the interests of his bosses. Now he has served his purpose he returns to obscurity

The Rape of Lucretia

brickster69 wrote: »

Varadkar was obviously told what to do for the interests of his bosses. Now he has served his purpose he returns to obscurity

Leo was just a cog in the EU strategy machine. He has no personal role to play other than as a directed executive. A role I would say he plays well though in fairness. The EU MB/DT/JCJ are fully in control of all matters from the EU side. Leo was given a job to do as part of the EU family, so he did it.

Tell me how

brickster69 wrote: »

Varadkar was obviously told what to do for the interests of his bosses. Now he has served his purpose he returns to obscurity

I agree with the first sentence.

He did do what he did for the interests of his bosses. The Irish electorate.
We dont want a hard border or a No Deal Brexit.

Duane Dibbley

brickster69 wrote: »

Varadkar was obviously told what to do for the interests of his bosses. Now he has served his purpose he returns to obscurity

Are you a remainer masquerading as a brexiteer?

Shelga

Just watching the Newsnight special now. Why on earth is Michelle Dewberry, a reality tv show contestant from 13 years ago, constantly invited on. She’s clueless and overly simplistic, and not even famous??

brickster69

Tell me how wrote: »

I agree with the first sentence.

He did do what he did for the interests of his bosses. The Irish electorate.
We dont want a hard border or a No Deal Brexit.

That was obvious from day one but IRE played the big man and now will probably end up with both

FrancieBrady

brickster69 wrote: »

That was obvious from day one but IRE played the big man and now will probably end up with both

What would you have done to 'avoid' both?

Imreoir2

brickster69 wrote: »

Varadkar was obviously told what to do for the interests of his bosses. Now he has served his purpose he returns to obscurity

What part of the last few weeks suggest that Ireland is anything less than a full and equal partner in the EU? Where does this cynical view come from? In the past a small country like Ireland would not even have been invited to participate in discussions between the major powers of Europe. Back in the 19th century or early twentieth century, Germany, France and the UK would have made a decision between them and we would have been informed of the outcome, that is if they did not go to war over their conflicting interests.

Under the EU that is not how things are done, our interests as a small nation have been front and centre, our diplomats have had a crucial role in deciding what happens. Both the UK and the other European states have heard our concerns and have acomodated them. Why are you so against this?

That was obvious from day one but IRE played the big man and now will probably end up with both

Probably not, there has been a clear and consistant majority against a hard border or no deal in the House of Commons, how will it happen, who is going to make it happen? It does not strike me as a credible outcome right now.

thecretinhop

SNIP. No more of this please.

Imreoir2

thecretinhop wrote: »

Snipped post.

Riviting contribution. You know what, you have convinced me. I retract my previous statement and will defer to your wisdom on this matter in future. :rolleyes:

RobMc59

Imreoir2 wrote: »

What part of the last few weeks suggest that Ireland is anything less than a full and equal partner in the EU? Where does this cynical view come from? In the past a small country like Ireland would not even have been invited to participate in discussions between the major powers of Europe. Back in the 19th century or early twentieth century, Germany, France and the UK would have made a decision between them and we would have been informed of the outcome, that is if they did not go to war over their conflicting interests.

Under the EU that is not how things are done, our interests as a small nation have been front and centre, our diplomats have had a crucial role in deciding what happens. Both the UK and the other European states have heard our concerns and have acomodated them. Why are you so against this?

Ireland as a nation have acted honourably and the Taoisearch have acted with dignity.Which is more than can be said for johnson and co who have acted like a nest of vipers.

devnull

Letter from Boris to MP's has been published



The bit about whether the EU will make a decision quickly is key I'd say.

Imreoir2

RobMc59 wrote: »

Ireland as a nation have acted honourably and the Taoisearch have acted with dignity.Which is more than can be said for johnson and co who have acted like a nest of vipers.

His style may be grating and I can understand why many people in the UK would take a dim view of Johnson, and May before him, but as far as our interests are concerned both May and Johnson as PM have agreed a withdrawl agreement that would respect the GFA. Diplomatically we can't ask for more from the UK, their decision to leave the EU is a matter for them, once they abide by their commitments to peace on this island then we can have no complaints.

That said, I would hate to have something like this happen in Ireland. The thought of either main party inflicting the likes of this on the country because of their own internal bickering would be sickening.

Imreoir2

devnull wrote: »

Letter from Boris to MP's has been published



The bit about whether the EU will make a decision quickly is key I'd say.

Parliaments request for an extension? Has he written the letter to the EU requesting an extension or not? He has another few hours to do so, but his letter to MPs seems to suggest that a request has already been made?

Enzokk

Here is the moment Joanna Cherry stood up to speak and the Tories evacuated their seats.

https://twitter.com/mikegalsworthy/status/1185563964090081280?s=20

This is not the first time this has happened and will not be the last. Rees-Mogg also stood up to leave while points of order was being made on his point of order, instead of a business motion which usually is made, this time by Kirsty Blackman so I think a message is being sent to the SNP.


As for Johnson's deal, I cannot believe more wasn't made of the fact that no Economic Impact Assessment was done on his deal. I know why, it would show it is only slightly better than no-deal so the government will not do one and they know if they do they will give MPs enough to reject the deal whereas now they can vote for it and claim ignorance.

This is typical of the man Johnson is, a liar and cheat. He should not be trusted to do anything and the fact he is trying to tell people there will not be an extension when all news from the EU has been that one will be provided should be more than enough evidence for MPs to just politely nod when he talks but to not trust him when he says anything.

If he told me the sun was shining I would put my head out of the window to check.

devnull

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Parliaments request for an extension? Has he written the letter to the EU requesting an extension or not?

Tusk says he hasn't yet....

https://twitter.com/eucopresident/status/1185628435554734080?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1185628435554734080&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fnews.sky.com%2Fstory%2Fjohnson-tells-mps-there-is-a-burning-desire-to-get-brexit-done-11839261

Enzokk

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Parliaments request for an extension? Has he written the letter to the EU requesting an extension or not? He has another few hours to do so, but his letter to MPs seems to suggest that a request has already been made?

He has a problem though, the letter has already been written for him I believe and it is in the name of the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Good luck trying to spin that as a parliament letter when he has to sign it.

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1171096680525160448?s=20

As for his letter, very Trumpian in the way he describes his deal. Don't trust someone when they tell you how smart they are or how great a deal they are giving you.

GM228

Enzokk wrote: »

He has a problem though, the letter has already been written for him I believe and it is in the name of the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Good luck trying to spin that as a parliament letter when he has to sign it.

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1171096680525160448?s=20

As for his letter, very Trumpian in the way he describes his deal. Don't trust someone when they tell you how smart they are or how great a deal they are giving you.

He must write the letter as per the Schedule of the Act:-

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/26/schedule

It must read:-

Dear Mr President,

The UK Parliament has passed the European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 2) Act 2019. Its provisions now require Her Majesty's Government to seek an extension of the period provided under Article 50(3) of the Treaty on European Union, including as applied by Article 106a of the Euratom Treaty, currently due to expire at 11.00pm GMT on 31 October 2019, until 11.00pm GMT on 31 January 2020.

I am writing therefore to inform the European Council that the United Kingdom is seeking a further extension to the period provided under Article 50(3) of the Treaty on European Union, including as applied by Article 106a of the Euratom Treaty. The United Kingdom proposes that this period should end at 11.00pm GMT on 31 January 2020. If the parties are able to ratify before this date, the Government proposes that the period should be terminated early.

Yours sincerely,

Prime Minister of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland

Anything else is not in compliance with the Act and unlawful.

Purgative

Enzokk wrote: »

As for his letter, very Trumpian in the way he describes his deal. Don't trust someone when they tell you how smart they are or how great a deal they are giving you.

The stupid thing is Bozo is saying "Lets get Brexit done" - even my mother (visiting) is saying "Oh I thought it would all be finished".


Very few seem to realise that this finishes nothing, it just starts a long painful round of incompetent negotiations for an FTA, and then after a lot of grief ...

Enzokk

Somewhere there is a ditch that will soon have Johnson in it, if he was a man of his word that is,

https://twitter.com/antoguerrera/status/1185635559533957123?s=20

Boris is sending the letter, Tusk says

#BREXIT: UK'S JOHNSON CONFIRMED TO EU'S TUSK THAT EXTENSION LETTER WOULD BE SENT TODAY - EU OFFICIAL

Water John

The man who said repeatedly, he wouldn't. He's pathetic and what word has he?

PropJoe10

Water John wrote: »

The man who said repeatedly, he wouldn't. He's pathetic and what word has he?

I think he'll probably say that he'll request an extension but he won't negotiate for one - slightly different wording, but it'll probably what he'll say. He'll be hoping that the EU places some conditions on an extension, which he'll then refuse and then No Deal will be back on.

BarryD2

Enzokk wrote: »

As for his letter, very Trumpian in the way he describes his deal. Don't trust someone when they tell you how smart they are or how great a deal they are giving you.

He seems to subscribe to the theory that if you keep saying something, that it eventually becomes true.

He's caught in the headlights now is Boris, if that letter doesn't go by 11pm, the lawyers will be lining up.

Imreoir2

PropJoe10 wrote: »

I think he'll probably say that he'll request an extension but he won't negotiate for one - slightly different wording, but it'll probably what he'll say. He'll be hoping that the EU places some conditions on an extension, which he'll then refuse and then No Deal will be back on.

I'm sure parliament will have the opportunity to instruct the government to accept the extension regardless of whatever conditions are attached.

Water John

So if his vote doesn't go through on Monday, he'll surely go for a simple vote for a GE with LB and SNP and Lib Dems supporting it.