Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

Shelga

What's the point of his letter to parliament? Seems like more meaningless posturing.

When will we know what the EU has decided with regard to an extension? It's not easy to co-ordinate a unified response from 27 countries, I imagine- especially now the summit is over.

A Dub in Glasgo

Shelga wrote: »

What's the point of his letter to parliament? Seems like more meaningless posturing.

He is trying to scare them into voting for his 'cracking' deal otherwise it might be no deal (as the EU might refuse or take an age)

Water John

It looked highly likely that it would have been needed with the tight deadline so I suspect some chat may have been had on it.
To hint to the EU, to take their time getting back to him on it. Really juvenile.

fr336

Now Tusk has said Boris has told him he will be seeking extension, the EU should give them a really long extension - anything from 6 months to a year. This would finish Boris and possibly the Tories too. The winners would be the Brexit party and other opposition parties as a result of the fragmenting of Tory vote.

Itssoeasy

Shelga wrote: »

What's the point of his letter to parliament? Seems like more meaningless posturing.

When will we know what the EU has decided with regard to an extension? It's not easy to co-ordinate a unified response from 27 countries, I imagine- especially now the summit is over.

Well given it's the weekend you'd have to assume it'll be Monday at the earliest before anything happens. That letter that's in the benn act actually isn't as restrictive as I thought it was. It does mention January 2020, but it also gives the PM a way of shortening that extension if the House of Commons can pass it before then.

dePeatrick

fr336 wrote: »

Now Tusk has said Boris has told him he will be seeking extension, the EU should give them a really long extension - anything from 6 months to a year. This would finish Boris and possibly the Tories too. The winners would be the Brexit party and other opposition parties as a result of the fragmenting of Tory vote.

What advantage would it be letting the Brexit party gain power?

Joe_ Public

Shelga wrote: »

What's the point of his letter to parliament? Seems like more meaningless posturing.

When will we know what the EU has decided with regard to an extension? It's not easy to co-ordinate a unified response from 27 countries, I imagine- especially now the summit is over.

Will take a few days. Piece below sums it up fairly well i think. Seems macron was being a bit cheeky with his comments about refusing an extension, was likely just trying to help his new buddy get his deal over the line. Didnt work. Earliest EU parliament could ratify any deal is late november so extension needs to take that into account at very least.

Boris Johnson has confirmed he will seek Brexit delay, says Brussels

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/19/eu-will-grant-brexit-extension-if-johnson-sends-letter-says-brussels?

fr336

dePeatrick wrote: »

What advantage would it be letting the Brexit party gain power?

They will never gain power. Only the Tories or Labour can gain power, with possible assistance from smaller parties. The power of Brexit has been overstated in parlimentary seat terms - even in Labour seats which voted leave, only one had Labour voters being more leave than remain. Labour will hold onto their northern seats, and the Tories will lose London among many other places.

Water John

Just don't comprehend how any MP whose values from from a Lb background could consider voting for this Deal. Far worse for workers etc than May's Deal.

gimli2112

it's hard to imagine a worst PM but then I just saw Teresa May on Sky news, then I remembered David. You really couldn't make up an unholy trinty as bad.
The three of them will have their place in history, if there is one.

Itssoeasy

Water John wrote: »

Just don't comprehend how any MP whose values from from a Lb background could consider voting for this Deal. Far worse for workers etc than May's Deal.

Logic has long since left this whole debate on brexit. Some of the rational used by the ordinary British voter on video or on radio has been mind numbing to listen to. It's not living in the real world. Invoking the WW2 spirit and other things like that have made some people so blinded by this utopian version of brexit(which isn't possible) and now the whole country seems completely dug in on their view. Even if brexit is somehow achieved the UK will take awhile to recover from it.

Letwin_Larry

I genuinely really dont understand what all the fuss is about.
So what, Boris will miss his Oct 31st "deadline", an EU extension will be granted, and he will either get his deal through in 6 weeks, 6 months, etc.

But failing either being granted an extension (highly unlikely imo), or Boris being unable to get his deal passed (unlikely but possible),
then we will have a GE, which is what Boris wants anyhow.

Correct me if i am wrong? Explain.

Strazdas

Shelga wrote: »

What's the point of his letter to parliament? Seems like more meaningless posturing.

When will we know what the EU has decided with regard to an extension? It's not easy to co-ordinate a unified response from 27 countries, I imagine- especially now the summit is over.

There's speculation that the EU could leave it as late as October 31 to reveal their decision - they might not want to commit to anything too soon

Joe_ Public

Water John wrote: »

Just don't comprehend how any MP whose values from from a Lb background could consider voting for this Deal. Far worse for workers etc than May's Deal.

I suppose its something to do with the sense of abandonment lots of people feel in those northern heartlands and they've latched onto brexit as a way of expressing their hatred of the southern metropolitan elites. I can feel sympathy for Labour mps caught up in that but facilitating a tory brexit is no answer. They should have fought harder to convince those voters they were on the wrong path.

prawnsambo

Strazdas wrote: »

There's speculation that the EU could leave it as late as October 31 to reveal their decision - they might not want to commit to anything too soon

Well they'll have to have another EU Council meeting, so it's likely that it will take time. But not the 31st, that would be stupid.

whatawaster81

Strazdas wrote: »

There's speculation that the EU could leave it as late as October 31 to reveal their decision - they might not want to commit to anything too soon

You'd expect they'll wait at least until after the vote on Monday as the whole dynamic changes again.

Letwin_Larry

i think Brexit mania has taken over, and people are just getting excited because they feel they must.
same as what happened during the Salem witch trials.

Joe_ Public

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

I genuinely really dont understand what all the fuss is about.
So what, Boris will miss his Oct 31st "deadline", an EU extension will be granted, and he will either get his deal through in 6 weeks, 6 months, etc.

But failing either being granted an extension (highly unlikely imo), or Boris being unable to get his deal passed (unlikely but possible),
then we will have a GE, which is what Boris wants anyhow.

Correct me if i am wrong? Explain.

Johnson will get his election but on what terms? As the glorious leader who delivered brexit or the failure who broke all his promises to get them out on Oct 31. He can fight an election on both fronts but the latter prwsents the added complication of farage.

liamtech

gimli2112 wrote: »

it's hard to imagine a worst PM but then I just saw Teresa May on Sky news, then I remembered David. You really couldn't make up an unholy trinty as bad.
The three of them will have their place in history, if there is one.

As much as i hate the man, and consider him the architect of all of this mysery - i dont think David Cameron belongs in this trinity - sure he was the idiot who started all this, and yes he did it for selfish party political reasons - but in terms of policy, behavior, and his method of dealing with, and talking to his colleagues in the HOC - Cameron wasnt as bad as these two - perhaps a seperate list for the most idiotic PMs - with Cameron on top

The unholy Trinity

Boris Johnson - obnoxious arrogant nasty egotistical self obsessed buffoon who is not even Party First - he is BORIS first - his nasty use of language in the HOC is inflaming tensions across the UK - whats more he seems to almost enjoy it, in a sadistic way, continuing to refer to the traitors surrender bill, even after it was point out that death threats were being issued to members, quoting his language

Theresa may - Arrogant stubborn lady who tied up the entire process of brexit negotiations with her 'red lines' - and her press conferences stating that the 'Best Brexit is the Best for Britain', AKA what SHE WANTS for Brexit - and all this after apparently campaigning for remain (in a half hearted manner at that)

Margaret Thatcher Ultra arrogant semi-imperialist whos solution to the Troubles was simply to say 'Your All Criminals' - i say that as someone who is not a republican btw, but her solution was laughable and set the troubles a fire in my opinion- Egotist in so far as she firmly began the Euroskeptic non-sense with her 'wanting her money back' - again for political gain - she took the childrens lunch milk - and sought to align herself with an actor across the water who took glory for ending conflicts despite creating chaos in both latin America, and the middle east (remind you of anyone??)

Anyway - the unholy trinity of worst and most damaging PM's

happy to discuss

tanko

Joe_ Public wrote: »

I suppose its something to do with the sense of abandonment lots of people feel in those northern heartlands and they've latched onto brexit as a way of expressing their hatred of the southern metropolitan elites. I can feel sympathy for Labour mps caught up in that but facilitating a tory brexit is no answer. They should have fought harder to convince those voters they were on the wrong path.

Do people in those northern heartlands not realise that life could get a whole lot worse for them. Aren't Nissan talking about closing their plant in Sunderland which directly and indirectly supports 20,000 jobs if Brexit goes ahead.
Yet Sunderland voted to leave i think. Brexit could ruin the place but they don't seem to realise this.

CarPark2

To sidetrack for a minute:
We are often told that addressing climate change in the way that experts advise would be too disruptive and would lead to reduced standards of living.
We accept this and our planet is heading towards a situation where it will be less and less hospitable for us and our children’s generation.
But here we see a country that is willing to take the hit in terms of disruption and reduced standards of living, for what is essentially a principle (because in reality, trade with EU will be more important than with US and the most likely situation is that they won’t diverge that much from EU).
What to make of that?
Is it a sign of hope that people will sacrifice comfort and prosperity for something they believe in, so maybe we can be braver in tackling climate change?
Or is it a cause for despair that people have been willing to suffer so much for something as pointless as brexit, but will barely tolerate a carbon tax to try to ensure that we have a planet on which our children can survive?

Letwin_Larry

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Johnson will get his election but on what terms? As the glorious leader who delivered brexit or the failure who broke all his promises to get them out on Oct 31. He can fight an election on both fronts but the latter prwsents the added complication of farage.

thanks Joe.
but after 3 plus years of this nonsense, so what if he's delayed by a few weeks, months.
i mean he will argue he did his damnest, but the mad hatters tea party aka HoC stymied him.

if anything it underlines just how necessary it is to get it done?

Joe_ Public

tanko wrote: »

Do people in those northern heartlands not realise that life could get a whole lot worse for them. Aren't Nissan talking about closing their plant in Sunderland which directly and indirectly supports 20,000 jobs if Brexit goes ahead.
Yet Sunderland voted to leave i think. Brexit could ruin the place but they don't seem to realise this.

I think deep down they do but, heres the thing, they want to go anyway. I mentioned here before a piece i saw on bbc from a car plant in the midlands where the staff were interviewed and while the owner/manager, a remainer, said they'd have to shut down lines in the event of brexit, all the workers said they'd voted leave and would do so again. Lot of them were rare or first time voters. I think thats not an untypical pattern in those areas. Quite sad really.

Tell me how

Water John wrote: »

Just don't comprehend how any MP whose values from from a Lb background could consider voting for this Deal. Far worse for workers etc than May's Deal.

Hamstrung by their constituents voting to leave in referendum.
Constituents who were duped by vacuous promises mind, but still.

Water John

What does the mantra 'get it done' actually mean. It means voting to make your country and its people poorer.

CarPark2

liamtech wrote: »

As much as i hate the man, and consider him the architect of all of this mysery - i dont think David Cameron belongs in this trinity - sure he was the idiot who started all this, and yes he did it for selfish party political reasons - but in terms of policy, behavior, and his method of dealing with, and talking to his colleagues in the HOC - Cameron wasnt as bad as these two - perhaps a seperate list for the most idiotic PMs - with Cameron on top

The unholy Trinity

Boris Johnson - obnoxious arrogant nasty egotistical self obsessed buffoon who is not even Party First - he is BORIS first - his nasty use of language in the HOC is inflaming tensions across the UK - whats more he seems to almost enjoy it, in a sadistic way, continuing to refer to the traitors surrender bill, even after it was point out that death threats were being issued to members, quoting his language

Theresa may - Arrogant stubborn lady who tied up the entire process of brexit negotiations with her 'red lines' - and her press conferences stating that the 'Best Brexit is the Best for Britain', AKA what SHE WANTS for Brexit - and all this after apparently campaigning for remain (in a half hearted manner at that)

Margaret Thatcher Ultra arrogant semi-imperialist whos solution to the Troubles was simply to say 'Your All Criminals' - i say that as someone who is not a republican btw, but her solution was laughable and set the troubles a fire in my opinion- Egotist in so far as she firmly began the Euroskeptic non-sense with her 'wanting her money back' - again for political gain - she took the childrens lunch milk - and sought to align herself with an actor across the water who took glory for ending conflicts despite creating chaos in both latin America, and the middle east (remind you of anyone??)

Anyway - the unholy trinity of worst and most damaging PM's

happy to discuss

For me, Cameron has to go down as one of the worst. There was no need to call a referendum. But his hubris made him think that it would be easy to win. He completely failed to understand the Pandora’s box he was opening. Because of that he failed to plan the campaign properly. All of this started with his hubris and incompetence. It is all unnecessary.
Theresa May has many characteristics that made her a poor PM, but she inherited a mess and did her best to solve it, against the backdrop of kamikaze ERG members of her own party.
I wasn’t around for Thatcher, but the brits must have been happy with her if they gave her three terms.

prawnsambo

CarPark2 wrote: »

To sidetrack for a minute:
We are often told that addressing climate change in the way that experts advise would be too disruptive and would lead to reduced standards of living.
We accept this and our planet is heading towards a situation where it will be less and less hospitable for us and our children’s generation.
But here we see a country that is willing to take the hit in terms of disruption and reduced standards of living, for what is essentially a principle (because in reality, trade with EU will be more important than with US and the most likely situation is that they won’t diverge that much from EU).
What to make of that?
Is it a sign of hope that people will sacrifice comfort and prosperity for something they believe in, so maybe we can be braver in tackling climate change?
Or is it a cause for despair that people have been willing to suffer so much for something as pointless as brexit, but will barely tolerate a carbon tax to try to ensure that we have a planet on which our children can survive?

It would be nice to think that that was the thoght process, but I doubt it. Many don't believe that anything untoward will happen. And they have closed their ears to any evidence that it has. There's nothing altruistic about it. It's pure nationalism with a very big N.

gimli2112

liamtech wrote: »

happy to discuss

I'm actually a fan of thatcher, she was an awful human but a good leader

Cameron left his young toddler in a pub when he was PM (maybe he was thinking about something important) and there was pigate (in fairness simply ewww)
a man who was so out of touch with everything and everybody. it should not be ignored he is (nevermind he never foresaw it) the architect of brexit

lola85

CarPark2 wrote: »

For me, Cameron has to go down as one of the worst. There was no need to call a referendum. But his hubris made him think that it would be easy to win. He completely failed to understand the Pandora’s box he was opening. Because of that he failed to plan the campaign properly. All of this started with his hubris and incompetence. It is all unnecessary.
Theresa May has many characteristics that made her a poor PM, but she inherited a mess and did her best to solve it, against the backdrop of kamikaze ERG members of her own party.
I wasn’t around for Thatcher, but the brits must have been happy with her if they gave her three terms.

Google Panama papers and his daddies involvement.

Then it makes sense.

lawred2

Apologies for this but I've been traveling to Tenerife all day.. first chance to sit down.

Is there a two line summary of what happened today?