Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

liamtech

NotToScale wrote: »

I've a feeling the EU will be unable to respond as who can write that letter is ultimately a constitutional question that could only be answered by the Supreme Court of the UK.

It's not up to the EU to decide who represents the UK to the EU. That's a matter for the UK.

It's actually making the UK look like a failed state without a working government and a clown at the helm.

I think the EU will ask for clarification, and look to see the decision of the courts - the courts being almost a certainty at this stage

devnull

Probably his tactic will be that he never asked for an extension, he just sent a letter he was forced to that won't count so therefore it won't be valid if offered.

ancapailldorcha

Ok, I've cleared up a few off topic and below standard posts. Please bear the charter in mind when posting. Many thanks.

Enzokk

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Yeah...and there was me today speculating as what fiendish plot they were hatching. Memo to self to stop crediting johnson or cummimgs with any political savvy whatsoever! Speaking of the "evil genius" maybe its just me or is he keeping a low profile of late?

The problem seems to be their plots keep getting leaked and Andrea Leadsom was talking about sending multiple letters as well on TV. If they managed to keep their plans secret it would have more of an effect as well you suspect.

BorneTobyWilde

EU will grant the extension, no reason not to. General Election is way forward, and I expect the Brexit Party will steal a lot of seats from the Conservatives, while the remain parties will clean up. Lib Dem and Labour to rule.

Donnielighto

Could the EU send invitations to each of the parliments in the UK welcoming them and offering EU membership. Not gloating at all but just be genuine and say that we'd be happy to see them continue as European citizens. No badness, maliciousness or windup.

prunudo

RickBlaine wrote: »

Not signing the letter is so immature. OK, he might disagree with it but he is legally required by law to abide by the wishes of parliament on this matter. He is behaving like a petulant child.

This is it in a nutshell. You can be sure the genius and master tactician Mr. Cummings came up with this amazing idea. Explains the smugness from Gove, Raab and Barclay etc over the last few weeks.

liamtech

Sky News apparently has a copy of the second letter requesting that, in effect, the first mandatory BENN letter should be ignored - urging the EU not to grant an extension

I cant find this letter anywhere does anyone have a link?

shocking stuff - having a scoop but set into this now- long night to see what happens - Tusk has GOTTA RESPOND dont we think?? - i have faith that Tusk will have something to say on this latest ridiculous stunt

Joe_ Public

Enzokk wrote: »

The problem seems to be their plots keep getting leaked and Andrea Leadsom was talking about sending multiple letters as well on TV. If they managed to keep their plans secret it would have more of an effect as well you suspect.

Not half as bad as John Baron in the chamber during the week! The idea of multiple letters has been floated for a while though, hasnt it? Just feels a bit obvious and, while im no expert, i cant see it getting them very far.

Tea Shock

I reckon the sending of multiple letters was not the big master plan to circumvent the Benn Act

I reckon the passing of the deal without the accompanying legislation was the master plan....and the Letwin amendment sniffed them out.

Water John

The idea of forcing a Ref on this now comes up. It only lost by 12 votes when it was put before. Now the DUP may support it. If they put a bit of thought into it, they would feel better with all the UK staying in the EU as opposed to checks in the Irish Sea.

Joe_ Public

Donnielighto wrote: »

Could the EU send invitations to each of the parliments in the UK welcoming them and offering EU membership. Not gloating at all but just be genuine and say that we'd be happy to see them continue as European citizens. No badness, maliciousness or windup.

On that topic Stephanie Bolzen who is a german reporter based in London, who i find very good, was on sky yesterday saying she didnt think it would be plain sailing for the scots to get eu membership in the event of independence. Not sure of why, but was intetested to hear her opinion all the same.

reslfj

Sam Russell wrote: »

...
As a consequence of her 'leadership', Britain no longer mines coal, all car manufacturing is owned by foreign companies, all manufacturing in Britain is now a minor actor in the GDP, Britain is a major home for 'funny money', etc. etc.

Coal mining was dying long before MT became PM. It simply isn't any longer economical to invest in and produce electricity using coal.
The UK underground mining was even less economical when surface mined coal and inexpensive transport of coal by ship became available.
Natural gas from the North Sea didn't help either.

To a degree MT helped the more efficient mines to operate for a longer period after -like it or not - the 'keep the highest number of jobs for any price' union policy was thrown out by MT.

Deep down the productivity of all production facilities in a country is behind the long term success and size of the country's wealth.

The UK car industry is an example where not only the productivity but also the design, engineering and quality of cars from UK owned companies were way below continental cars and Japanese cars.

If you are not forever striving to be in top, you are bound to lose - and this is just how it should be.
For the auto industry this is very much why Germany and Japan is winning while the UK and the US is losing.

The speculative - even grey - money in London is what hit UK banking much harder than many others in 2008/09. It was the background for some needed austerity in the 2009-2011/12 time frame. But - IMHO - not for its stupid continuation to allow lower taxes and religiously believe in trickle down economy.

Lars

Imreoir2

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Not half as bad as John Baron in the chamber during the week! The idea of multiple letters has been floated for a while though, hasnt it? Just feels a bit obvious and, while im no expert, i cant see it getting them very far.

The mentality of the average English voter is a strange thing. I can only assume that Johnson would not have done this if he thought it would cost him support on the ground. How this comes accross as anything other than patethic childishness in front of other leaders I do not understand. We would be rightly ashamed if our leaders acted like this, and yet it seems in England this behaviour is not only acceptable but welcome in some quarters.

LeinsterDub

Donnielighto wrote: »

Could the EU send invitations to each of the parliments in the UK welcoming them and offering EU membership. Not gloating at all but just be genuine and say that we'd be happy to see them continue as European citizens. No badness, maliciousness or windup.

No that would be interfering with internal politics of a member state. Something the EU doesn't do

Strazdas

liamtech wrote: »

Sky News apparently has a copy of the second letter requesting that, in effect, the first mandatory BENN letter should be ignored - urging the EU not to grant an extension

I cant find this letter anywhere does anyone have a link?

shocking stuff - having a scoop but set into this now- long night to see what happens - Tusk has GOTTA RESPOND dont we think?? - i have faith that Tusk will have something to say on this latest ridiculous stunt

Here you go:

https://twitter.com/MehreenKhn/status/1185666939869388800

Edit: that is letter No.2 to Tusk, the one he actually signed

The Rape of Lucretia

Joe_ Public wrote: »

On that topic Stephanie Bolzen who is a german reporter based in London, who i find very good, was on sky yesterday saying she didnt think it would be plain sailing for the scots to get eu membership in the event of independence. Not sure of why, but was intetested to hear her opinion all the same.

I just cant see the EU ignoring its former family members on a life raft that has escaped the sinking HMS Brittannia.

RickBlaine

Water John wrote: »

The idea of forcing a Ref on this now comes up. It only lost by 12 votes when it was put before. Now the DUP may support it. If they put a bit of thought into it, they would feel better with all the UK staying in the EU as opposed to checks in the Irish Sea.

If a confirmatory referendum amendment was passed, I wonder how the government would vote. Would they vote against their own deal because it would lead to a second ref (surely then quickly leading to a GE), or would they still vote for it despite the second ref. Interesting to ponder that.

liamtech

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7592073/Boris-Johnson-sends-THREE-letters-EU-one-urge-Brussels-NOT-grant-delay.html

3 letters from daily mail

Joe_ Public

Tea Shock wrote: »

I reckon the sending of multiple letters was not the big master plan to circumvent the Benn Act

I reckon the passing of the deal without the accompanying legislation was the master plan....and the Letwin amendment sniffed them out.

You could well be right. Either way though, parliament has the better of them again. Theyd probably hsve found a way of ataching a ref if they needed. Johnson possibly left with the option of running to the people complaining about all the parliament bullies not leaving him alone!

Joe_ Public

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

I just cant see the EU ignoring its former family members on a life raft that has escaped the sinking HMS Brittannia.

You could be right. Id have assumed same, but i find bolzen a reliable reporter so i was just struck by that opinion. Not sure how accurate it might be though.

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Ok, I've cleared up a few off topic and below standard posts. Please bear the charter in mind when posting. Many thanks.

A sanction has been issued and posts deleted.

briany

RickBlaine wrote: »

If a confirmatory referendum amendment was passed, I wonder how the government would vote. Would they vote against their own deal because it would lead to a second ref (surely then quickly leading to a GE), or would they still vote for it despite the second ref. Interesting to ponder that.

If I was a government MP, I'd be chomping at the bit to wash my hands of the matter at this stage. The parliamentary deadlock is interminable. Because Brexit has so successfully pitted parliament v. the people, parliament should f*** the issue back at the people and let the people blame themselves for a change.

fr336

Sky News saying that one amendment put in front of house this week could be for a permanent customs union for all of UK. Which the DUP could back. And Boris would be screwed.

liamtech

Is there not a real clear and present danger of Loyalist violence in the north because of this deal? Assuming it gets through which - i wont even call

https://twitter.com/JamieBrysonCPNI/status/1185666820734357505?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

https://twitter.com/JamieBrysonCPNI/status/1185663135161733120?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet


https://news.sky.com/story/an-awful-betrayal-why-the-dup-rejects-the-pms-new-brexit-deal-11839001

Like i am saying this in all sincerity - this has a historical precedent - Regardless of what we think of Jamie Bryson and his ilk, and regardless of what we generally think of the opinions espoused by Loyalism - Right wing loyalism brought down Sunningdale and the Anglo Irish agreement in the 80s - it amplified the troubles to a great extent - and as Bonnie Greer said the GFA was almost a truce - a cease fire -

Is there a real possibility that if this goes through - we see that cease fire end?

and is not the only rational way to avoid that - to somehow stop Brexit to return to the status quo?

Letwin_Larry

fr336 wrote: »

Sky News saying that one amendment put in front of house this week could be for a permanent customs union for all of UK. Which the DUP could back. And Boris would be screwed.

looks like the DUP will have travelled some journey.
all of a sudden they could become the saviours of Remainers.

LeinsterDub

fr336 wrote: »

Sky News saying that one amendment put in front of house this week could be for a permanent customs union for all of UK. Which the DUP could back. And Boris would be screwed.

Basically back to the May deal. Also NI would still be in the single market while GB wouldn't be

devnull

Here's the British press reaction

Mail


Express

LeinsterDub

devnull wrote: »

Here's the British press reaction

Mail


Express

So not a picture of Boris in a ditch then, no ? Quelle surprise

devnull

LeinsterDub wrote: »

So not a picture of Boris in a ditch then, no ? Quelle surprise

His argument will be it's not from him.