Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

Enzokk

fr336 wrote: »

Sky News saying that one amendment put in front of house this week could be for a permanent customs union for all of UK. Which the DUP could back. And Boris would be screwed.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Basically back to the May deal. Also NI would still be in the single market while GB wouldn't be

You would expect the ERG to vote against a deal that has a permanent customs union attached to it and possibly Johnson to go against it as well. That would be some spectacle, Johnson voting against his own deal.

CarPark2 wrote: »

That was valid while the UK were a member state. They could have blocked an independent Scotland from joining (and would have been strongly supported by Spain). I don’t know if it would still stand after Brexit it would suit the EU for Brexit to be a disaster, so they might welcome Scotland joining as an expression of that disastrous outcome.

Has the UK left the EU? I must have missed that. The noises for Scotland joining the EU has been a lot more encouraging lately while the UK is still a member. There should be no objections to Scottish EU membership if the EU lives up to its principles.

gimli2112

I see one of the DM's lead stories is the abuse JRM got while walking his 12 year old son out of parliament, I feel bad for the child, not least because he's dressed up as a min-JRM. No idea what the father was thinking putting the kid into that situation, at best it's a serious lapse in judgement,

careless sherpa

Strazdas wrote: »

This is the real legacy of Cameron's referendum. He failed to anticipate just how deeply divisive and polarising it would.

It is an ironic end to the united kingdom. An empire that was built and maintained by creating division and sowing seeds of conflict that have lasted well beyond British rule.

robinph

gimli2112 wrote: »

I see one of the DM's lead stories is the abuse JRM got while walking his 12 year old son out of parliament, I feel bad for the child, not least because he's dressed up as a min-JRM. No idea what the father was thinking putting the kid into that situation, at best it's a serious lapse in judgement,

He did it because he knew he'd get shouted at and be able to create a few headlines about the nasty remainers shouting at him whilst his kid was around. He was using the kid as a human shield.

maynooth_rules

gimli2112 wrote: »

I see one of the DM's lead stories is the abuse JRM got while walking his 12 year old son out of parliament, I feel bad for the child, not least because he's dressed up as a min-JRM. No idea what the father was thinking putting the kid into that situation, at best it's a serious lapse in judgement,

It was purposely done by JRM to get headlines like that.

listermint

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

can i just say this though in relation to a 2nd ref.

can you imagine yourself having just voted for/against a certain referendum, election whatever, then to have some well intention-ed person tap you on the shoulder and tell you that you were misled, misinformed or just ignorant, and to try again.

in fairness how would you feel?

personally i think i would explode. all logic would be lost. emotion would take over.

I'd feel grand.


Because ive voted on second referendums here. Where we were more informed second time round and got concessions.

Only an idiot would explode. Because they were an idiot to begin with

Joe_ Public

gimli2112 wrote: »

I see one of the DM's lead stories is the abuse JRM got while walking his 12 year old son out of parliament, I feel bad for the child, not least because he's dressed up as a min-JRM. No idea what the father was thinking putting the kid into that situation, at best it's a serious lapse in judgement,

I saw the 2 page spread on the news and what i noticed is they had pics of JRM and other tories (leadsom i think) but nothing about Diane Abbott who got by far the worst abuse. I dont condone what happened but can you imagine if Abbott or other remain mps had walked through a leave protest? As if they'd dare!

woohoo!!!

Just like May, the EU will give Johnson cover. Particularly cos he has delivered a deal which has an actual chance of passing. The EU want the UK gone. They've seen both Brexiteers and Remainers playing games in HoC, and the EU really want nothing more to do with that vipers nest.

As more mass loyalist protests, 20 folks waving flegs outside a chipper isn't something of concern. The days of a loyalist created apocalypse, grinding NI to a halt and instigating pogroms against catholics are long gone. They've now insulted their last ally, right wing Tories, although they still have their sycophant supporters in the indo I'm sure.

gimli2112

BBC giving JRM some cover. "It being a weekend and so childcare issues not unreasonable to take your children........."
I guess, trying to allege as school was out there was no-one to look after the children.

Jizique

woohoo!!! wrote: »

Just like May, the EU will give Johnson cover. Particularly cos he has delivered a deal which has an actual chance of passing. The EU want the UK gone. They've seen both Brexiteers and Remainers playing games in HoC, and the EU really want nothing more to do with that vipers nest.

As more mass loyalist protests, 20 folks waving flegs outside a chipper isn't something of concern. The days of a loyalist created apocalypse, grinding NI to a halt and instigating pogroms against catholics are long gone. They've now insulted their last ally, right wing Tories, although they still have their sycophant supporters in the indo I'm sure.

Sammy wants Boris to get a decent majority and go back to negotiate again

A Dub in Glasgo

gimli2112 wrote: »

BBC giving JRM some cover. "It being a weekend and so childcare issues not unreasonable to take your children........."
I guess, trying to allege as school was out there was no-one to look after the children.

Of course, that is rubbish and the BBC should not be pandering to it. The schools break in England for the mid term break next week, I presume he is now bringing in his 'mini me' in the HoC everyday next week?

It has been known for weeks that yesterday would be a quite divisive day, Mogg has decided to have his son become part of it

Enzokk

gimli2112 wrote: »

BBC giving JRM some cover. "It being a weekend and so childcare issues not unreasonable to take your children........."
I guess, trying to allege as school was out there was no-one to look after the children.

The BBC is a disgrace, he had a nanny for himself and he has one for his kids (same one I believe). He cynically used a point of order to state they would be bringing the deal back for a vote on Monday instead of a business motion so he couldn't be questioned and he cynically used his child as cover as he knew emotions would be high today.

Then again with a political editor like Kuennsberg is it any wonder their coverage is favourable to the Tories?

FrancieBrady

Enzokk wrote: »

The BBC is a disgrace, he had a nanny for himself and he has one for his kids (same one I believe). He cynically used a point of order to state they would be bringing the deal back for a vote on Monday instead of a business motion so he couldn't be questioned and he cynically used his child as cover as he knew emotions would be high today.

Then again with a political editor like Kuennsberg is it any wonder their coverage is favourable to the Tories?

It doesn't matter, none of them should be under threat leaving their place of work.

He may have wanted his son to witness events in Parliament...fairly momentous stuff going on, after all.

I have no time for Mogg, less time for that sort of abusive protest.
Protest should not be abusive.

Joe_ Public

Nice line from journalist on marr. Saying lets get brexit done is a bit like a couple saying lets get childbirth done so we can get back to having lots of sleep and normal lives again. Pretty neat analogy.

Also see amber rudd basically telling sophy ridge the deal is rubbish but i'm going to vote for it anyway. I dont think she's actually pregnant, but she definitely just wants to get brexit done.

devnull

Farage has been on Sky and has just made it obvious that it's about screwing over the common man and helping the rich get richer is all that he cares about. But no doubt his supporters still won't see the fact he is desperate to screw them over.

Nigel Farage says the EU wanting to keep employment legislation, social protections, environmental law and taxation on a level-playing field is "not taking back control of our laws".

"We still haven't got a package that works," he complains. "It doesn't make us a free country. It's just Mrs [Theresa] May's deal with a few improvements."

Plus he wants a delay!
https://twitter.com/RidgeOnSunday/status/1185828871163305984

Basically he wants a no deal Brexit so the rich can plunder the poor and take away their rights.

It's there naked for all to see why the Brexit party are about and their vile motivations.

Guy:Incognito

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Spain has said it would have no jusifiable legal objection to Scotland joining the .
EU
Their reasoning is that Scotland's independence will be gained constitutionally, Catalonia attempt is according to Spain, unconstitutional and illegal.
Rahoy outlined this a long time ago.

Surely Scotland would have to show, for a decent amount of time that it can stand on its own two feet, before being given a chance to join? Fast tracking them in and them being a basket case needing billions pumped in constantly is hardly a good situation.

The same with the north. All the talk is of united Ireland this and that. It shouldn't be that they separate from the UK and join straight away. Be your own country, then look at what the people of both countries want when they know whats involved and what both bring to the party.

FFS at least learn from Brexit. A decision where one side (leave) has no idea of the consequences beyond their own camp telling them everything will be great, knowing full well they are telling lies.

Guy:Incognito

gimli2112 wrote: »

No idea what the father was thinking putting the kid into that situation, at best it's a serious lapse in judgement,

A cynic might see it as a deliberate attempt to generate a favorable story in the press................


EDIT, beaten to it.

fergiesfolly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It doesn't matter, none of them should be under threat leaving their place of work.

He may have wanted his son to witness events in Parliament...fairly momentous stuff going on, after all.

I have no time for Mogg, less time for that sort of abusive protest.
Protest should not be abusive.

You're absolutely right.
But JRM knew the crowd would be abusive and still took his child through it. Worse still, he dressed him up to look like a miniature version of himself, drawing even more attention to them and putting his child in danger.
I don't like him or his politics, but to to that to his own son proves what a vile, odious cretan he is.

LeinsterDub

https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1185835835859652608

Would SNP and Lib Dems support this?

boggerman1

devnull wrote: »

Farage has been on Sky and has just made it obvious that it's about screwing over the common man and helping the rich get richer is all that he cares about. But no doubt his supporters still won't see the fact he is desperate to screw them over.



Plus he wants a delay!
https://twitter.com/RidgeOnSunday/status/1185828871163305984

Basically he wants a no deal Brexit so the rich can plunder the poor and take away their rights.

It's there naked for all to see why the Brexit party are about and their vile motivations.

But the common man believes the lies sold by farage so they will get what they voted for and hope the common man is screwed royally.and listening to English radio they are beyond redemption now.time to lance the boil

circadian

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1185835835859652608

Would SNP and Lib Dems support this?

I guess the devil is in the details but on the face of it yeah I'd say they would, unless the Lib Dems are just electioneering with their revoke A50 pledge.

devnull

boggerman1 wrote: »

But the common man believes the lies sold by farage so they will get what they voted for and hope the common man is screwed royally.and listening to English radio they are beyond redemption now.time to lance the boil

Indeed, if you ask them for a single policy other than delivering Brexit of Farage's none of them can say anything and when you tell them about his tax plans and workers rights they say that is all 'project fear' and speculation even though he's openly said it himself.

Some of them are so desperate for Brexit they'd sell their family down the river to get it.

devnull

https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1185842754385043458

I think this sums up the Tory party quite well right now and you'd have to ask yourself why the hell are they betting each other and secondly, if this shows that they are not as united as they seem to be, with Gove once again throwing people under the bus.

ancapailldorcha

circadian wrote: »

I guess the devil is in the details but on the face of it yeah I'd say they would, unless the Lib Dems are just electioneering with their revoke A50 pledge.

I've always got the impression that they're just trying to shift the Overton window such that remain is no longer on the side of it but in the middle.

If the referendum includes remain, they'd be insane not to support it.

Infini

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1185835835859652608

Would SNP and Lib Dems support this?

They would as for the SNP it prevents them being dragged out of the EU against their will and as for the Lib Dems it's the next best thing to outright revocation. Regardless for both parties it means a way foward and since Corbyn has at least come out and supported this option anyways it should pass. The DUP will for all their stupidity will likely support it too as it lets them get off the hook while throwing Boris and friends under their own bus purely just to spite them.

If they can pass a motion for a referendum then win a Remain vote it utterly destroys the conservatives plans for good, Remain can easily win it if they have positive slogans as well as easily ripping the piss out of the antics of JRM and Boris while highliting the core point that remain costs nothing but leave means years of endless Brexit news. It would be enough to close down the damn thing for some people.

Enzokk

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It doesn't matter, none of them should be under threat leaving their place of work.

He may have wanted his son to witness events in Parliament...fairly momentous stuff going on, after all.

I have no time for Mogg, less time for that sort of abusive protest.
Protest should not be abusive.

Agreed, the vitriol has been evident for a long time before today so taking your son to parliament yesterday was either a stupid thing to do or cynical. JRM is not a stupid man.

devnull wrote: »

Farage has been on Sky and has just made it obvious that it's about screwing over the common man and helping the rich get richer is all that he cares about. But no doubt his supporters still won't see the fact he is desperate to screw them over.



Plus he wants a delay!

Basically he wants a no deal Brexit so the rich can plunder the poor and take away their rights.

It's there naked for all to see why the Brexit party are about and their vile motivations.

Farage wants a second pension I think and he knows he can get one from the UK Parliament if a election is held before they leave the EU. So no shock he is looking for a delay. He knows how to get his bread buttered and he is looking to butter it on both sides, now that his EU pension is secured whatever happens.

Joe_ Public

The Liberal democrats do support a referendum. The revoke position is only a fantasy based on the party becoming a dominant government partner. Numbers might still be tight for it i would think and then you have the issue of a hostile government having to legislate for it. Longer road that than people give credit for i think.

Shelga

Infini wrote: »

They would as for the SNP it prevents them being dragged out of the EU against their will and as for the Lib Dems it's the next best thing to outright revocation. Regardless for both parties it means a way foward and since Corbyn has at least come out and supported this option anyways it should pass. The DUP will for all their stupidity will likely support it too as it lets them get off the hook while throwing Boris and friends under their own bus purely just to spite them.

If they can pass a motion for a referendum then win a Remain vote it utterly destroys the conservatives plans for good, Remain can easily win it if they have positive slogans as well as easily ripping the piss out of the antics of JRM and Boris while highliting the core point that remain costs nothing but leave means years of endless Brexit news. It would be enough to close down the damn thing for some people.

I think the view that another referendum in which Remain win will solve everything is naive. The genie is out of the bottle.

I do still agree, however, that the best possible outcome is a referendum on Johnson’s deal v Remain, where Remain wins by more than ~55%. Even then, the political system in the UK will remain polarised and toxic, and a large portion of the electorate will be extremely angry and disillusioned. They will think: our decision was reversed, before we had even left.

GM228

Nice to see Johnson surrendered to the Surrender Act!

Sorry couldn't resist.

As to weather legal action will proceed on the basis the other letters frustrate the intention of the first letter (and ultimately the Benn Act) remains to be seen, he may have sent those other letters lawfully after all, we shall see what happens in the Inner House tomorrow.

ancapailldorcha

Shelga wrote: »

I think the view that another referendum in which Remain win will solve everything is naive. The genie is out of the bottle.

I do still agree, however, that the best possible outcome is a referendum on Johnson’s deal v Remain, where Remain wins by more than ~55%. Even then, the political system in the UK will remain polarised and toxic, and a large portion of the electorate will be extremely angry and disillusioned. They will think: our decision was reversed, before we had even left.

People will probably disbelieve me when I say this, and I understand why but my primary motivation for supporting another referendum is to legitimise Brexit, ie to ask the people, "Given what has transpired and come to light in the past three years, is this huge change what you want?"

If people want to take the all but guaranteed economic hit, to turn cracks in the Union into chasms and to jettison the UK's standing in the world all for the whims of a few shadowy financiers then that's their call. This was far from clear in 2016. It is now so there's nothing anyone like me can say or do to question the legitimacy of a People's Vote whatever the result is.

The UK deserves a chance to rethink this, to show that it is better than the libertarian Tory right and to vote based on facts and not fantasies. I doubt there is a single member of the "We knew what we were voting for" brigade who desired turning the Prime Minister into a supplicant of the French president three times. I want to end this with a remain vote but I want Brexit voters to have the chance to be 100% sure so that the fallout will be entirely on them regardless of the fantasies they've been sold by the likes of Rothermere, Murdoch and Desmond.