Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

prunudo

RobMc59 wrote: »

How can johnson and co justify his toxic approach to brexit when things like this are happening as a result:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-no-deal-fruit-picking-apples-national-farmers-union-eu-workers-harvest-a9163781.html

Because the Brexit overlords plan to overrun the UK economy with cheap labour from the subcontinent and other countries citizens they hope to give visas to in return for doing trade deals with.

Igotadose

prunudo wrote: »

Because the Brexit overlords plan to overrun the UK economy with cheap labour from the subcontinent and other countries citizens they hope to give visas to in return for doing trade deals with.

Personally think Brexit's kind of like the blind men and the elephant; everyone can touch a different part of it and have a different idea what it is, but no one can see the whole thing.

Sure, cheap labor might come from elsewhere, or in the UK. And sure, the NHS might be gutted. Or not. Or, worst of all, in some wildly unanticipated way. It's why listening to Brexiters yammer on and on about how great it'll be to (insert your favorite false Brexit claim here), when they're called up on it, they have no answers - because no one really knows what will happen in the long run. Maybe like JRM said in 50 years there'll be benefits.

But what all this screams, is that the entire thing was unnecessary and at best, will have neutral impact, but not positive. Unnecessary, foolish, negative impacting and full of unanticipated impacts.

MrMusician18

Joe_ Public wrote: »

If thats the damage it does to fruit picking, imagine the long term damage it'll do to the nhs.

The quoted amount left in the fields is a bit meaningless when they don't tell you the overall size of the harvest.

54and56

Quick question, why didn't BoJo go ahead with the meaningful vote on Saturday despite losing the Letwin vote? It's not like he has a lot of days to spare if he really wants to deliver on his promise to have the WA done and dusted by Oct 31st!!

Enzokk

54and56 wrote: »

Quick question, why didn't BoJo go ahead with the meaningful vote on Saturday despite losing the Letwin vote? It's not like he has a lot of days to spare if he really wants to deliver on his promise to have the WA done and dusted by Oct 31st!!

It would have been indicative only and had no effect at all as the Letwin amendment states that the Withdrawal Agreement Bill should be passed first before they move on to the vote for the Withdrawal Agreement itself. The WA Bill needs to go through a few debates, sent to the House of Lords for their part as well and then back to the HoC for a third vote before it passes.

Joe_ Public

prunudo wrote: »

Because the Brexit overlords plan to overrun the UK economy with cheap labour from the subcontinent and other countries citizens they hope to give visas to in return for doing trade deals with.

That may be right but still doesnt strike me as particularly coherent. As it stands figures show the uk has more of an issue with immigration from outside the eu than inside. So to address a problem caused by EU migrants leaving, they'll attract even more cheap labour from the subcontinent?! I didnt think thats what they meant when they talked about taking back control.

trashcan

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Certainly struck me as a bit odd to hear tory after tory bang on about the "will of The People" in the hoc yesterday as a great many people expressed their frustration only a few metres away outside. They have basically subsumed "the people" as their trademark, as if they speak for everybody, the whole United kingdom, not just the 17m who voted leave. "The People" want it done, apparently, so it must be done.

Similar with SAmmy Wilson yesterday talking about Northern Ireland and what it wants and needs. Like he is qualified to speak for all the people of the North.

Joe_ Public

trashcan wrote: »

Similar with SAmmy Wilson yesterday talking about Northern Ireland and what it wants and needs. Like he is qualified to speak for all the people of the North.

Somewhere around 47% of unionists voted remain i think which implies sammy maybe speaks for a quarter of the population. Though given he's a staunch remainer now, i'm not sure how or if that changes!

Dyr

prunudo wrote: »

Because the Brexit overlords plan to overrun the UK economy with cheap labour from the subcontinent and other countries citizens they hope to give visas to in return for doing trade deals with.

imagine an unscrupulous government flooding a country with cheap labour from outside the EU, it could never happen here

Hold on a minute...

prawnsambo

Bambi wrote: »

imagine an unscrupulous government flooding a country with cheap labour from outside the EU, it could never happen here

Hold on a minute...

Imagine if posters all made statements here without any backup.



Hold on a minute.

roosterman71

RobMc59 wrote: »

How can johnson and co justify his toxic approach to brexit when things like this are happening as a result:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-no-deal-fruit-picking-apples-national-farmers-union-eu-workers-harvest-a9163781.html

Has the UK got full employment or are the locals too high and mighty to go pick fruit?

prawnsambo

roosterman71 wrote: »

Has the UK got full employment or are the locals too high and mighty to go pick fruit?

I'd say it's a bit of that and also about population density near the farms.

RobMc59

RobMc59 wrote: »

How can johnson and co justify his toxic approach to brexit when things like this are happening as a result:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-no-deal-fruit-picking-apples-national-farmers-union-eu-workers-harvest-a9163781.html

So do you think that the exploitation of cheap foreign labour is a good idea!
Not really an EU thing, more a result of globalisation and the exploitation that it has allowed.

Bambi

Bambi wrote: »

imagine an unscrupulous government flooding a country with cheap labour from outside the EU, it could never happen here

Hold on a minute...

prawnsambo wrote: »

Imagine if posters all made statements here without any backup.



Hold on a minute.

Brazilians in Tuam for starters, Indians in IT support roles and countless other imports to maintain growth.

Joe_ Public

roosterman71 wrote: »

Has the UK got full employment or are the locals too high and mighty to go pick fruit?

Its just reality i think, fruit picking like a lot of manual labour jobs, is both hard work and relatively poorly paid, so it might be a stretch to think locals, even in tougher times, would give up benefits to take it up. Tends to be of a seasonal nature too, i guess, so why it would suit migrants. They come here, work the few months is going and then go home again. Not all, but a lot of them.

prawnsambo

prawnsambo wrote: »

I'd say it's a bit of that and also about population density near the farms.

how do the current pickers get to the farms, they use a bus (unless their illegals and sleep in barns).
Same with the regional workers, it's just another commute, the same as going to Dublin to spend all day in a shop.

Water John

IDS was proposing people work until they are 75. That solves the fruit picking problem. Put the grannys at it.

Mos it isn't a smart comment. Just black humour to illustrate a point.

FrancieBrady

Seen a docu on the conditions some of those low paid pickers are living in. Third world would be understating it.

listermint

Bambi wrote: »

imagine an unscrupulous government flooding a country with cheap labour from outside the EU, it could never happen here

Hold on a minute...

What cheap labour. Where ? There's no 'cheap' labour in this country unless your looking to spread ridiculously stupid xenophobic bile. Which some posters here wouldn't have form in would they.... In countless other threads.

You know the type of people who haven't a blues notion what they are talking about and never spoke to someone that wasn't born in their estate. Those people.

Joe_ Public

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Seen a docu on the conditions some of those low paid pickers are living in. Third world would be understating it.

Remember seeing a film doc on the morecambe cockle picking scandal, chinese labourers being paid a couple of quid a day and living in houses with up to 30 other people. Sure it still goes on too.

Water John

Not to derail, but the min wage is great for that. Where it fails is where, with foreign work visas, a lot of that wage is clawed back, for services incl housing. Meat processing is a prime example.

it was always the case that TM was blinded by the issue of immigration. It was largely in her own control and was not from EU countries.

Guy:Incognito

Water John wrote: »

IDS was proposing people work until they are 75. That solves the fruit picking problem. Put the grannys at it.

Mos it isn't a smart comment. Just black humour to illustrate a point.

I dont see what the big issue is the whole time with raising the retirement age.

65 was chosen a long time ago when people werent expecting to live as long as they are going to in the future and when 65 was considered elderly.

if people start living to 100+ in large numbers, you'll have a lot of people spending almost as long receiving a pension as they did paying tax. Thats not sustainable.

Joe_ Public

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

I dont see what the big issue is the whole time with raising the retirement age.

65 was chosen a long time ago when people werent expecting to live as long as they are going to in the future and when 65 was considered elderly.

if people start living to 100+ in large numbers, you'll have a lot of people spending almost as long receiving a pension as they did paying tax. Thats not sustainable.

Fair point. At same time, if you are not creating new employment then you're making it tougher and tougher for young people to get on the job ladder given positions are opening up later and later. Its a bit of a conundrum really.

Capt'n Midnight

roosterman71 wrote: »

Has the UK got full employment or are the locals too high and mighty to go pick fruit?

All the questions answered by the Mail of all places.

The fall in sterling means the UK has had to up wages.
Concern over passports not helping.
UK workers have no appetite for hard outdoor work especially now that employers need extra hands for the moment because they aren't investing in new technology.

10,000 workers needed. Until the fruit picking machines take over.

Junkyard Tom

WomanSkirtFan8 wrote: »

Varadkar's right about a UI. It will have to be done extremely slowly and carefully as there is so much detail to be worked out with everyone up there.

Unionists won't discuss a UI for fear of being seen as a collaborator. The negotiations would have to come after a pro-UI vote.

Also, I think the implications of rejecting a UI in the south need to be discussed because if people think everything would go back to how it was they're fooling themselves.

prawnsambo

Deleted User wrote: »

how do the current pickers get to the farms, they use a bus (unless their illegals and sleep in barns).
Same with the regional workers, it's just another commute, the same as going to Dublin to spend all day in a shop.

A lot of them are put up on site. Or rent accommodation nearby. The problem for UK workers is that they would have to commute because they have homes in the UK. And they're not prepared to incur the extra cost or leave their families for protracted periods.

Capt'n Midnight

Water John wrote: »

IDS was proposing people work until they are 75. That solves the fruit picking problem. Put the grannys at it.

No no, not pensioners, it's prisoners.

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/prisoners-picking-fruit-in-the-uk-a-possibility-473407

54and56

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Brazilians in Tuam for starters, Indians in IT support roles and countless other imports to maintain growth.

Not sure about Brazillians in Tuam but I knowba very large Indian IT support services company here who have veryv talented people all of whom are earning a multiplie of minimum wage!! There's nothing exploitative about their terms of employment!!

Guy:Incognito

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

I dont see what the big issue is the whole time with raising the retirement age.

65 was chosen a long time ago when people werent expecting to live as long as they are going to in the future and when 65 was considered elderly.

if people start living to 100+ in large numbers, you'll have a lot of people spending almost as long receiving a pension as they did paying tax. Thats not sustainable.

Nor is working as a bricklayer at 70, using this logic most people will die of physical working. Just because someone is physically able to work, shouldn't mean they must.

Really need to evaluate what life is about as it seems being part of the machine is all that matters to many.

Fr. Pat Noise

volchitsa wrote: »

I'm not so sure they matter that much any more - the days when loyalist paramilitaries were able to cause disruption like the loyalist strikes in the mid seventies is long gone. Without their state backers, they're no more powerful now than the latest IRA offshoots.

Same for possible terrorist activities: they were only ever able to carry those out thanks to serious help from supporters in the RUC and elsewhere. I don't believe they would have that support now, given how poorly the DUP has played the amazingly strong hand it was given in 2017. All the more so if the UK economy is seen to be suffering from Brexit, and if Scotland is restive.

The loyalists/unionists can be extremely stubborn and violent when there is a very distinct possibility of being a minority in a UI look what happened 100 years ago. They will find a way to get weaponary and explosives to wage a low to mid intensity conflict in the event of UI.