Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

Kermit.de.frog

listermint wrote: »

Then you are not for the electorate and democracy it seems.

I've always suspected this though.

Are you also for subversion of the electoral process ? By let's say I don't know extremely wealthy forces hoping to make massive amounts of money.

I am all for democracy.

They voted to leave. Ergo they leave.

I think you have the issue with democracy, not me.

Kermit.de.frog

Indestructable wrote: »

The CU amendment is more sh1t acting by the members of the HOC, and they know it. They NEED an election, there is no other way forward at this time, if they won't ratify the Agreement as it is.

An election in which the Tories will mop up as all polls predict and they will leave with this deal anyway.

This is just pointless delay.

Mr.Nice Guy

listermint wrote: »

Absolute horse crap.

There is no majority leave vote. The notion that there will be widespread civil unrest is nonsense peddled by hard right news papers.

Is that were you are consuming this crap from.


The leavers can't even muster more than a handful of people to turn up at rallies. Not once ever in the last here years.

So praytell where is it you get this information from

There were politicians having to take police escorts to get out of the building on Saturday. Numerous MPs have been subjected to death threats. Judges have been termed 'enemies of the people'. A politician was murdered days before the referendum by a nutter shouting 'Britain First'.

You would only need a small percentage of that 17.4 million to kick off for there to be unrest, and you don't need to be a right wing newspaper to realise that there are plenty of potential headcases out there who could do significant damage if they feel they have been 'betrayed'.

Leaver rallies are a barometer of nothing. They haven't yet come to the conclusion that they won't get their way.

Professor Moriarty

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I am all for democracy.

They voted to leave. Ergo they leave.

I think you have the issue with democracy, not me.

Under what terms did they vote Leave?

marno21

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I am all for democracy.

They voted to leave. Ergo they leave.

I think you have the issue with democracy, not me.

It is now a full 3 and a half years since that vote. The electorate is vastly different, and the leave campaign has been shown to have made promises to the electorate which either cannot be fulfilled or will not be fulfilled.

And that’s aside from all the Cambridge Analytica stuff.

If there’s a GE soon then 2 GEs will have passed since Brexit also. If “democracy” applies to general elections and they reoccur why can’t it apply to referenda?

Joe_ Public

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

An election in which the Tories will mop up as all polls predict and they will leave with this deal anyway.

This is just pointless delay.

How did it work out for Theresa May?

Letwin_Larry

the whole fiasco is an unmitigated disaster for GB's reputation and standing in the world.

i find it ironic that a nation that ruled half the globe, and felt it their destiny to tell other so called "lesser" peoples how to govern themselves, now seems incapable of organizing itself.
the chickens really have come home to roost.

i met some English people over the weekend. nice couple in their mid 30s. upwardly mobile, well educated. the conversation inevitably turned to the B subject. they were truly embarrassed by the whole thing.

if only we here were not so close to the action and the likely negative consequences, then we could really enjoy it.

Indestructable

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

An election in which the Tories will mop up as all polls predict and they will leave with this deal anyway.

This is just pointless delay.

Yeah, I believe they will and then the deal negotiated last week is where we will end up, absolutely.

But the election has to happen. Labour will be looking at the polls and won't table the VONC. The FTPA is an extremely ill thought out and damaging act.

J Mysterio

Gove is now warning/ threatening that he is 'triggering' Operation Yellowhammer.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/no-deal-brexit-boris-johnson-operation-yellowhammer-eu-extension-a9163636.html

Professor Moriarty

So you decided you wanted to Leave. Okay, three years later, here's the deal we got. Now, do you want that deal or do you want to stay?

Kermit.de.frog

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

There were politicians having to take police escorts to get out of the building on Saturday. Numerous MPs have been subjected to death threats. Judges have been termed 'enemies of the people'. A politician was murdered days before the referendum by a nutter shouting 'Britain First'.

You would only need a small percentage of that 17.4 million to kick off for there to be unrest, and you don't need to be a right wing newspaper to realise that there are plenty of potential headcases out there who could do significant damage if they feel they have been 'betrayed'.

Leaver rallies are a barometer of nothing. They haven't yet come to the conclusion that they won't get their way.

100% agree.

Over the last 3 years remainers have treated leavers as if they were stupid. They have been demeaned and insulted by remainers daily.

Now they want to say to leavers not only are you stupid and your voice shouldn't count but we have overturned the vote you won in the referendum.

What could possibly go wrong...?

Professor Moriarty

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

100% agree.

Over the last 3 years remainers have treated leavers as if they were stupid. They have been demeaned and insulted by remainers daily.

Now they want to say to leavers not only are you stupid and your voice shouldn't count but we have I returned the vote you won in the referendum.

What could possibly go wrong...?

What did the "leavers" vote for?

Joe_ Public

J Mysterio wrote: »

Gove is now warning/ threatening that he is 'triggering' Operation Yellowhammer.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/no-deal-brexit-boris-johnson-operation-yellowhammer-eu-extension-a9163636.html

That is why i think the opposition need to be thinking of strategies like that CU amendment. They had macron trying to do their dirty work for them before saturday, now they are trying a different tack.

GM228

[Deleted User] wrote: »

They could if all 27 agree, after all they're being asked to agree on a lot of things that have been unexpected in recent months. If they really want closure on the whole Brexit saga, it provided a way out for all, and a possible way back for the remainers.

A far better option than a no deal crashout, which is still possible if an extension is refused.

That would be contrary to the treaties and the ECJ has already previously held a country which leaves and subsequently wants to come back must go through accession in accordance with Article 49 of the TFEU.

Kermit.de.frog

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

What did the "leavers" vote for?

To leave the European Union.

No matter how much anyone disagrees with it that it what they voted for.

Professor Moriarty

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

To leave the European Union.

No matter how much anyone disagrees with it that it what they voted for.

With no deal?

Nate--IRL--

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

What did the "leavers" vote for?

While I think that Leave is an idiotic postilion. To dismiss what he's pointing out with such a question is disingenuous. It ignores that Leave/Remain is now tribal. Logic does not apply any more. As illogical as that may be.

Nate

Headshot

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

What did the "leavers" vote for?

Bang on!

Beside the constant lies from the leave side, the referendum question was far to vague for the leave side. There's so many variations of leave that voters could of been voting for any thing.

One certain thing is that they didnt vote for NO DEAL as the leave side kept banging on about the "Easies Deal" etc etc

The great thing about Democracy people can change their minds, especially nearly 4yrs on and the demographic of voters has changed so much at this stage too. We know voters are more knowledgable about Brexit and alot of them have changed their mind.

A confirmation Referendum is the only way to go at this stage

Mr.Nice Guy

Let's be honest, if Remain won 52-48 and Farage was demanding a second referendum, the people who now support a second referendum would be dismissing it in the harshest possible terms and saying 'the people voted, get over it.'

I have sympathy with Leave voters in that respect. There's a double standard at the heart of it.

Professor Moriarty

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

While I think that Leave is an idiotic postilion. To dismiss what he's pointing out with such a question is disingenuous. It ignores that Leave/Remain is now tribal. Logic does not apply any more. As illogical as that may be.

Nate

Explain how asking what Leave voters voted for is "disingenuous". Is it not also disingenuous to hand wave away awkward questions by dismissing Brexit as "tribal"?

Professor Moriarty

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Let's be honest, if Remain won 52-48 and Farage was demanding a second referendum, the people who now support a second referendum would be dismissing it in the harshest possible terms and saying 'the people voted, get over it.'

I have sympathy with Leave voters in that respect. There's a double standard at the heart of it.

Except that Remain voters knew exactly what they were voting for.

Strazdas

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

To leave the European Union.

No matter how much anyone disagrees with it that it what they voted for.

Yes indeed, though it illustrates how poorly set up the referendum was.

'Leave and do what?' should have been the burning issue. What the UK public did was the equivalent of selling the house and car, quitting their job of 25 years, divorcing their spouse, all on the same day and with no plan whatsoever for what happens the following day and not knowing how damaging this might be to their life.

Kermit.de.frog

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Let's be honest, if Remain won 52-48 and Farage was demanding a second referendum, the people who now support a second referendum would be dismissing it in the harshest possible terms and saying 'the people voted, get over it.'

I have sympathy with Leave voters in that respect. There's a double standard at the heart of it.

Spot on and should be said more often. There is also an inherent snobbery involved as well.

I think the odds are Brexit will happen sooner rather than later with this deal.

I don't think they will leave with no deal simply because most Labour MPs would never vote in a way that makes that happen.

Water John

Hancock being destroyed by Peston on a Peston special.

Professor Moriarty

Water John wrote: »

Hancock being destroyed by Peston on a Peston special.

Good.

prawnsambo

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Let's be honest, if Remain won 52-48 and Farage was demanding a second referendum, the people who now support a second referendum would be dismissing it in the harshest possible terms and saying 'the people voted, get over it.'

I have sympathy with Leave voters in that respect. There's a double standard at the heart of it.

That's a false equivalence. The premise of brexit at the time of the referendum was all things to all voters. Remaining was the status quo that everybody knew through experience if not knowledge. If the result had been reversed, the answer to any would be second referendum proponents could be "tell us what you want and we'll set it out specifically in a referendum." and they'd still be working it out a decade from now. And that's all people are looking for now. For the exact form of brexit that has been agreed to be put back to a referendum. It's not an outrageous demand.

The problem with brexit is and always will be that it immediately fails in every respect the minute it's defined.

Headshot

Water John wrote: »

Hancock being destroyed by Peston on a Peston special.

Damn I missed it.

Any summary?

devnull

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Let's be honest, if Remain won 52-48 and Farage was demanding a second referendum, the people who now support a second referendum would be dismissing it in the harshest possible terms and saying 'the people voted, get over it.'

Farage said if it was 52/48 before the referendum then it would be unfinished business.

What he meant was, only if he loses.

Kermit.de.frog

prawnsambo wrote: »

The problem with brexit is and always will be that it immediately fails in every respect the minute it's defined.

So what you are saying in essence is that no country can ever leave the EU?

It's really simple. There is nothing complex about it. They voted to leave the European Union.

Either with a deal or no deal. Either way they leave all the institutions of the EU.

That is what they voted for, that must be respected.

They have a deal so time to move on.

Professor Moriarty

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

So what you are saying in essence is that no country can ever leave the EU?

It's really simple. There is nothing complex about it. They voted to leave the European Union.

Either with a deal or no deal. Either way they leave all the institutions of the EU.

That is what they voted for, that must be respected.

They have a deal so time to move on.

What is wrong with asking people if they are happy with the deal they've got? A simple confirmatory vote - Remain or the Deal. Why are Brexiteers so afraid of that?