Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

ThunbergsAreGo

VinLieger wrote: »

So they should have another election bringing the count to 2 since they had the referendum and making it the 3rd election fought with Brexit being a core issue but the idea of holding a 2nd referendum is somehow unreasonable? The level of hypocrisy by anyone pushing this farcical argument is just astounding.

The people voted for brexit by the narrowest of margins and then voted for a parliament unable to implement it again by the narrowest of margins, that's a pretty clear message that the people don't know what they really want and should be asked directly again.

And what if remains wins by the narrowest of margins? Do we go again,?

Water John

A UK Govn't could start then by helping the most deprived areas in the UK.
UK contains some of the most deprived areas in EU. This worsened by Osbourne and Hammond's 10 years of austerity driven by Tories ideology.
A few years was needed post 2008 but to continue to inflict that on people made them angry. That anger was falsly directed at the EU.

Basically tackle the root cause of disenchantment.

NotToScale

Strazdas wrote: »

Support for the EU is actually very strong in Portugal and Greece. This guy has obviously been reading Daily Telegraph opinion pieces.

Also Portugal doesn't have extremely high unemployment. It's at about 6.2% and expected to drop to 5.5% fairly soon and the country has been on a major economic resurgence over the past few years.

I think he out of his depth.

ambro25

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

And what if remains wins by the narrowest of margins? Do we go again,?

Hopefully not as, by then, the British political class would have learned at least a little from this close shave, i.e. don't give another referendum -binding or advisory irrespective- until improved education policies have had a chance to uplift the average Brit IQ by around an order of magnitude.

0gac3yjefb5sv7

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Extension. Johnson has requested it, the EU are considering it.

There isn't time for the HoC to scrutinize and pass all the associated legislation by Oct 31st - the Government have been hiding the draft legislation for over a year, it is guaranteed to be absolutely horrible when it is published, and will be debated and amended for weeks.

The Euro parliament also needs to approve the deal, and will take a minimum of a few weeks.

Jan 31st is probably reasonable if everyone thinks the deal as proposed is OK, but I strongly doubt that, and an election or new referendum are quite likely before any deal is done.

Thanks! So in short. Nothing has really been resolved. It will probably go into late next year before anything is done?

Water John

Even Kuenssberg doesn't think Bercow will allow a second WA vote today.

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak

Joe_ Public

Pheonix10 wrote: »

Thanks! So in short. Nothing has really been resolved. It will probably go into late next year before anything is done?

Quite likely i would think. Like was said, if we cant get to a GE or new referendum soon, it could drag on for ages. Depends on if or when eu pulls the plug, but i suspect they remain too concerned about no deal to take that route anytime soon.

So no quick resolution and just my speculation but if johnson gave up hope of getting his deal through he could just ditch it and put enormous pressure on opposition to facilitate election guarantee this week.

Kermit.de.frog

Westminster is such an archaic place. They need a serious overhaul to bring basic processes in their parliament in to the 21st century.

Joe_ Public

Water John wrote: »

Even Kuenssberg doesn't think Bercow will allow a second WA vote today.

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak

Looks very unlikely for sure but will end up feeding into the gov narrative of parliament frustrating the will of the people again so in a way the tories might see it as win-win territory.

Joe_ Public

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Westminster is such an archaic place. They need a serious overhaul to bring basic processes in their parliament in to the 21st century.

On a purely selfish basis i hope they dont as must admit i derive a hell of a lot of fun trying mostly in vain to work out the intricacies of it!

trellheim

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Looks very unlikely for sure but will end up feeding into the gov narrative of parliament frustrating the will of the people again so in a way the tories might see it as win-win territory.

if SM+CU had been tabled by the Tories it would have been done years ago as Labour would have fallen in with it ,
everyone would have moved on, instead faction fighting and political ambition rules the roost


The narrative of parliament frustrating the will of the people is seductive but wrong

trellheim

Off topic but I need a chuckle

BREAKING: MLAs have been turned away from Stormont by security staff as their passes are over 2 and half years out of date.

https://twitter.com/Tim_Mc_Garry/status/1186222410393182208

devnull

Water John wrote: »

Even Kuenssberg doesn't think Bercow will allow a second WA vote today.

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak

That's worrying, if Laura Kuenssberg says it's not likely then the chances of it happening have just gone up!

ToBeFrank123

Its ironic that people in the UK want to take back control to the HoC, the same HoC which is a mess and cannot agree on anything.

Hurrache

trellheim wrote: »

Off topic but I need a chuckle



https://twitter.com/Tim_Mc_Garry/status/1186222410393182208

This, this is just amazing and perfectly suited for the whole farce. Are Armando Iannucci and Chris Morris controlling the world now?


However McGarry is a comedian so I'd by cynical that it's true.

Zubeneschamali

Pheonix10 wrote: »

Thanks! So in short. Nothing has really been resolved. It will probably go into late next year before anything is done?

There is still a chance that something will happen suddenly at some point this year, but I think next year is more likely.

And even then, what may end up happening is they revoke A50 and pretend the whole Brexit thing never happened.

Professor Moriarty

trellheim wrote: »

Off topic but I need a chuckle



https://twitter.com/Tim_Mc_Garry/status/1186222410393182208

Very much on topic given Johnson's new 'consent' plan.

A Dub in Glasgo

Only spotted this from Saturday, Kuenssberg is just a mouthpiece for the Johnson and co.

https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1185542231400292353

https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1185544821135597568

Joe_ Public

trellheim wrote: »

if SM+CU had been tabled by the Tories it would have been done years ago as Labour would have fallen in with it ,
everyone would have moved on, instead faction fighting and political ambition rules the roost


The narrative of parliament frustrating the will of the people is seductive but wrong

I agree with that entirely but we are in the perception business of election posturing and that is what they are doing.

I wonder too is the cu/sm angle in any way compatible with the obvious tory brexit agenda of deregulation and "fantastic" trade deals with the US? I see now where johnson is promising concessions on workers rights to labour leavers. How does he square that with what he has promised the erg?

The high horse brigade

trellheim wrote: »

Off topic but I need a chuckle



https://twitter.com/Tim_Mc_Garry/status/1186222410393182208

I LOLd at the first reply

I'm more worried about their views being 60 years out of date...

Joe_ Public

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Only spotted this from Saturday, Kuenssberg is just a mouthpiece for the Johnson and co.

https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1185542231400292353

https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1185544821135597568

People who said this about kuenssberg in the past were spot on. Its getting embarrassing how close she is to downing st, very soon after gove came out with his yellowhammer story. They just use her as a pawn, no self respect there at all.

PropJoe10

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Its ironic that people in the UK want to take back control to the HoC, the same HoC which is a mess and cannot agree on anything.

Honestly, I think the Commons reflects British society on Brexit. Totally divided and can't agree on anything. The deadlock and catastrophic shambles in the Commons reflects pretty much where British society is.

devnull

It's being reported by RTE that the government are now only going to table votes if people won't amend them.

Government Spokesperson wrote:

The meaningful vote will go ahead if the speaker allows it and if no amendments are selected which would render the vote pointless. There is not point having a meaningless vote, the government would pull the motion.

Good to see democracy is live and well in the UK.

A Dub in Glasgo

If anyone wants to follow the proceedings in the courtcase in Edinburgh, click this guys twitter feed

https://twitter.com/GrayInGlasgow/status/1186235285597765632

https://twitter.com/GrayInGlasgow/status/1186239066628595712

Letwin_Larry

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

If anyone wants to follow the proceedings in the courtcase in Edinburgh, click this guys twitter feed

https://twitter.com/GrayInGlasgow/status/1186235285597765632

i really dont see the point of this. hasn't the EU accepted his letter as per The Benn Act?

so why bother with this futile exercise? just reflects poorly on the people bringing the case imo.

robinph

devnull wrote: »

It's being reported by RTE that the government are now only going to table votes if people won't amend them.



Good to see democracy is live and well in the UK.

I have finally seen a small bit in a BBC News article where they mention, very briefly, that the vote already happened. The withdrawal agreement having been agreed on by virtue of the Letwin amendment having been voted on and Johnson then just nodding the amended agreement through. The media is mostly trying to push the Johnson/ Cummings lie though about it not having been passed.

Bercow can't allow the vote today because the amendment has already been passed and agreed with by the government. But there is just too much noise going on pushing the alternative facts version to confuse people into thinking nothing happened on Saturday.

A Dub in Glasgo

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

i really dont see the point of this. hasn't the EU accepted his letter as per The Benn Act?

so why bother with this futile exercise? just reflects poorly on the people bringing the case imo.

The case was brought weeks ago (known as the Nob Off case) and lawyers for Johnson said they would comply with the law and they would not frustrate the letter. The jusge adjourned the case until today to see what Johnson does. The petitioners were back and the arguments are in the tweets.

https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1186232543349264385

robinph

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

i really dont see the point of this. hasn't the EU accepted his letter as per The Benn Act?

so why bother with this futile exercise? just reflects poorly on the people bringing the case imo.

Just because the EU decided to assume that the UK law was followed doesn't mean that Johnson not obeying the law should go unpunished.

It is a bit futile in terms of there isn't now any need for the court to send the letter themselves, but it should be noted in the records if the UK PM broke the law or not.

A Dub in Glasgo

Looks like the Judge threw out the Govt argument for the case to be dismissed and it continues

https://twitter.com/bbclornag/status/1186243667977297920

https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1186244210896392193

Letwin_Larry

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The case was brought weeks ago (known as the Nob Off case) and lawyers for Johnson said they would comply with the law and they would not frustrate the letter. The jusge adjourned the case until today to see what Johnson does. The petitioners were back and the arguments are in the tweets.

https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1186232543349264385

but the letter WAS sent and the EU HAS accepted his letter as being sufficient. this is just another needless distraction.

more white noise imo.