Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

Enzokk

Seems a little disingenuous from the government to claim he has complied by the law when they sent 3 letters instead of one and didn't even sign the letter. Their request to have the continuation set aside seems to me to be undermined by their own behavior. If they only sent the Benn letter and signed it then there would be no reason for all of this. Classic Dom?

Edit: Continuation confirmed as above so yes, Classic Dom in shooting himself in the foot once again.

Enzokk

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

but the letter WAS sent and the EU HAS accepted his letter as being sufficient. this is just another needless distraction.

more white noise imo.

If he had just sent the letter as instructed and signed it, it would have been accepted the same way as his stunt has. He could also have sent a 2nd letter stating he will still try to get everything through before the 31st as planned but to consider the extension if he cannot. Then there would have been no case for him to answer today, but I guess he just wants to keep on losing.

Letwin_Larry

Enzokk wrote: »

Seems a little disingenuous from the government to claim he has complied by the law when they sent 3 letters instead of one and didn't even sign the letter. Their request to have the continuation set aside seems to me to be undermined by their own behavior. If they only sent the Benn letter and signed it then there would be no reason for all of this. Classic Dom?

Edit: Continuation confirmed as above so yes, Classic Dom in shooting himself in the foot once again.

no i disagree.
Cummings will just cast this as yet another example of those in high office seeking to frustrate the will of the ordinary people.
they will contend that these judges are out of touch and far removed from the common man.

Enzokk

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

no i disagree.
Cummings will just cast this as yet another example of those in high office seeking to frustrate the will of the ordinary people.
they will contend that these judges are out of touch and far removed from the common man.

Enlighten me, how will he do this when nothing has been ordered by the court today? They are only monitoring it because Johnson and Cummings are liars and cannot be trusted, good luck spinning that into something positive.

Penn

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

but the letter WAS sent and the EU HAS accepted his letter as being sufficient. this is just another needless distraction.

more white noise imo.

But the case was to ensure that if an extension was granted, the PM would have to accept the extension as requested, and couldn't just say that the extension was asked for, but then turn it down.

Letwin_Larry

Enzokk wrote: »

Enlighten me, how will he do this when nothing has been ordered by the court today? They are only monitoring it because Johnson and Cummings are liars and cannot be trusted, good luck spinning that into something positive.

the very fact that we (and other media outlets) are discussing this will be enough to convince many Leavers that it's those silly toffs in silly wigs trying to trip them up.

A Dub in Glasgo

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

the very fact that we (and other media outlets) are discussing this will be enough to convince many Leavers that it's those silly toffs in silly wigs trying to trip them up.

Those leavers who think that will get tripped up by trying to understand anything

Joe_ Public

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

but the letter WAS sent and the EU HAS accepted his letter as being sufficient. this is just another needless distraction.

more white noise imo.

I learned a new expression yesterday called "Lekoffian framing', named after an american academic, which explains how people, mostly right wing populist types, frame stories to suit them. In this instance it focuses on how everybody is fixated on the three letter angle, which is what gov wants, while the real story - Johnson humiliated by asking for extension though he promised he never would - gets less traction than it should. Kind of a variant on the dead cat angle i'd say. Not sure how valid but found it interesting all the same.

Letwin_Larry

Joe_ Public wrote: »

I learned a new expression yesterday called "Lekoffian framing', named after an american academic, which explains how people, mostly right wing populist types, frame stories to suit them. In this instance it focuses on how everybody is fixated on the three letter angle, which is what gov wants, while the real story - Johnson humiliated by asking for extension though he promised he never would - gets less traction than it should. Kind of a variant on the dead cat angle i'd say. Not sure how valid but found it interesting all the same.

i agree. the truth is of little importance at this stage.
this is trench warfare

woohoo!!!

Eagerly awaiting Julia Donaldsons new childrens book entitled The Brexit Bus.

On a more serious note the EU have confirmed a holding position, to see what HoC gets up to.

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1186244674274648066?s=19

trellheim

Seems a little disingenuous from the government to claim he has complied by the law when they sent 3 letters instead of one and didn't even sign the lette

Man in pub can then say when asked "but he asked for an extension " ... taps side of nose knowingly "he didnt sign it, nods as good as a wink etc etc our Boris hes a crafty one eh put one over on those dodgy EU geezers "

i.e. their target electorate

Hurrache

Re the assembly and the DUP rushing to try prevent laws that would have kept them in keeping with their beloved union, is there a quorum required before it's recognised as "sitting"? The SDLP aren't going to turn up, nor are SF I presume, so I reckon the laws will go ahead regardless of their pathetic attempt. I know they need a speaker elected, agreed by both sides, so I assume that's the safety.

robinph

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

but the letter WAS sent and the EU HAS accepted his letter as being sufficient. this is just another needless distraction.

more white noise imo.

If you drive down the motorway at 150mph have you broken the law?
Have you still broken the law even if a speed camera or the police don't see you?

Joe_ Public

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

i agree. the truth is of little importance at this stage.
this is trench warfare

Yes, but it is very one sided. Cummings and the hard brexiter tories are playing right from the bannon playbook in which there are no consequences for deceit (which is why it is hard just to let johnson go free from the letter scandal). While the likes of amber rudd just flock back to the fold and help prop them up. A lot of moderate tories will have much to answer for when this is done i believe.

Itssoeasy

On RTÉ radio 1, it's been reported that the Northern Ireland AG is at stormont and there are reports that he will try to introduce a protection of life bill. In fairness the RTE Northern reporter is being clear he's not sure how exactly that could happen.

Letwin_Larry

Hurrache wrote: »

Re the assembly and the DUP rushing to try prevent laws that would have kept them in keeping with their beloved union, is there a quorum required before it's recognised as "sitting"? The SDLP aren't going to turn up, nor are SF I presume, so I reckon the laws will go ahead regardless of their pathetic attempt. I know they need a speaker elected, agreed by both sides, so I assume that's the safety.

does anybody care what that lot does or doesn't do? so long as they are not murdering each other leave them to it.

CrabRevolution

Hurrache wrote: »

Re the assembly and the DUP rushing to try prevent laws that would have kept them in keeping with their beloved union, is there a quorum required before it's recognised as "sitting"? The SDLP aren't going to turn up, nor are SF I presume, so I reckon the laws will go ahead regardless of their pathetic attempt. I know they need a speaker elected, agreed by both sides, so I assume that's the safety.

Stormont can only operate on a cross community basis, so there's no chance of the crowd showing up today in Stormont having any legal standing. Otherwise there was nothing to stop the DUP taking the wheel and going on a solo run for the last 2 years since Sinn Féin pulled out.

They know this well though and are only pulling the stunt for the optics.

Hurrache

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

does anybody care what that lot does or doesn't do? so long as they are not murdering each other leave them to it.

Yes, I do.

Hurrache

CrabRevolution wrote: »

Stormont can only operate on a cross community basis, so there's no chance of the crowd showing up today in Stormont having any legal standing. Otherwise there was nothing to stop the DUP taking the wheel and going on a solo run for the last 2 years since Sinn Féin pulled out.

They know this well though and are only pulling the stunt for the optics.

I agree on the last statement, their support will lap it up.

But as Itssoeasy posts, the AG up there is believed to make some moves to introduce a law to prevent the abortion law. However how he can bypass the law makers in order to do so I don't know.

Zubeneschamali

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

but the letter WAS sent and the EU HAS accepted his letter as being sufficient. this is just another needless distraction.

The Benn act also states that the PM must accept an extension to the 31/01/2020 if offered, and if a different date is offered, he must accept that if Parliament vote for it.

So he has not met all his obligations yet.

Letwin_Larry

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The Benn act also states that the PM must accept an extension to the 31/01/2020 if offered, and if a different date is offered, he must accept that if Parliament vote for it.

So he has not met all his obligations yet.

thank you. i did not fully appreciate that he had to accept the extension if given.
looks like the Germans are in favour of an extension. cant see why any member would object now after all this.

Joe_ Public

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

thank you. i did not fully appreciate that he had to accept the extension if given.
looks like the Germans are in favour of an extension. cant see why any member would object now after all this.

Elmer Brok was on rte yesterday saying very clearly they want to see a major development - he specifically mentioned referendum at least 3 or 4 times - so seems they are waiting a few days to see what emerges before deciding if short or long extension is required. Brok is supposedly close to merkel which is why what he says might be significant.

hometruths

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

thank you. i did not fully appreciate that he had to accept the extension if given.
looks like the Germans are in favour of an extension. cant see why any member would object now after all this.

I think Johnson is hoping his leverage comes from the fact the Benn Act does not oblige him to negotiate the detail of an extension. Yes he has to ask for it, (done) and yes he has to accept it if offered.

But if the reply from the EU is "You have wasted two extensions already, we need you to explain what you need another one for, is it a GE or a second referendum or what? Give us some detail etc etc."

Nothing in the Benn Act stops Johnson from replying "No idea, more of the same I guess, more time for Parliament to mess about, if you grant an extension they'll probably just ask you for another one in January."

trellheim

Commons business for the day is up

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201920/cmagenda/OP191021.pdf

Defence questions, then a speakers statement on whether MV can go ahead I presume listen in from 3:30 onwards

Joe_ Public

trellheim wrote: »

Commons business for the day is up

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201920/cmagenda/OP191021.pdf

Defence questions, then a speakers statement on whether MV can go ahead I presume listen in from 3:30 onwards

90 minutes to debate the bill. I'm sure mps will be impressed by that! But i figure they will let it through today to get onto second stage where the real fun starts!

Kermit.de.frog

https://twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1186254427532988417

I don't condone that behaviour but what do they expect?

They are trying to overturn the result of the referendum through obstruction and process schenadigans. That's only the beginning if they succeed.

They act surprised that people are going to be angry.

Letwin_Larry

schmittel wrote: »

I think Johnson is hoping his leverage comes from the fact the Benn Act does not oblige him to negotiate the detail of an extension. Yes he has to ask for it, (done) and yes he has to accept it if offered.

But if the reply from the EU is "You have wasted two extensions already, we need you to explain what you need another one for, is it a GE or a second referendum or what? Give us some detail etc etc."

Nothing in the Benn Act stops Johnson from replying "No idea, more of the same I guess, more time for Parliament to mess about, if you grant an extension they'll probably just ask you for another one in January."

that makes sense. i was wondering if the EU had to accept BoJo's acceptance, but was afraid to ask. the whole thing would become daft. (many will argue it already has!).
the German foreign minister is inclined to grant one.

Guardian is reporting that the Govt. might pull his meaningful vote if opposition amendments are granted, as that would render it "meaningless".

VinLieger

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

https://twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1186254427532988417

I don't condone that behaviour but what do they expect?

They are trying to overturn the result of the referendum through obstruction and process schenadigans. That's only the beginning if they succeed.

They act surprised that people are going to be angry.

Conversely the other side are trying to force through the result of a referendum achieved with lies and illegal actions that has no legally binding requirement to be enacted, not to mention nobody can agree on which version of the result is what everyone voted for.

Do you expect people to lie down and let their rights and jobs be stripped from them without standing up for themselves?

Also you want to talk about obstruction and process shenanigans? Have you forgotten the government illegally proroguing parliament?

They were elected to represent their constituents which is what they are doing and is literally the definition of parliamentary sovereignty that brexiteers claim so much to be concerned with.

You claim to not condone their behaviour yet your argument of "what do they expect?" apologising for the brexiteers behaviour is the classic definition of blaming the victim.

A Dub in Glasgo

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

https://twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1186254427532988417

I don't condone that behaviour but what do they expect?

They are trying to overturn the result of the referendum through obstruction and process schenadigans. That's only the beginning if they succeed.

They act surprised that people are going to be angry.

What is wrong with a simple condemnation of the folk shouting abuse? Cherry is an MP and also a QC and the Government is being held to account by her actions. It is not her fault most of the Tories are shysters

BarryD2

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

https://twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1186254427532988417

I don't condone that behaviour but what do they expect?

They are trying to overturn the result of the referendum through obstruction and process schenadigans. That's only the beginning if they succeed.

They act surprised that people are going to be angry.

Try contrasting the small mobs of angry right wing headbangers with the massive marches of people calling for a different approach. This minority Tory government is not only flying in the face of it's own citizens but also it's own parliament. It's the ultimate tail wagging the dog.