Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

listermint

is_that_so wrote: »

For people both than Boris no, but for him it is. He's performed well politically since the EU accepted negotiations on the deal.

Where's all this revisionism coming from!

Just perplexing.

Tea Shock

Hurrache wrote: »

Exactly. Any amendments won't be equal to what the EU agreed to.

If an amendment is for the deal to go to a referendum, the EU wouldn't stop that

But the whole thing would fall in the HoC anyway! Which means the amendment wouldn't pass in the first place

Who knows what else they'll come up with.
Could an amendment potentially be to not have the final vote until after an election?
EU wouldn't object to that either but would have a chance....I think

listermint

MPFGLB wrote: »

Again EU wil accept amendments as long they are not about a border in NI I would say

They also want it done


This whole process is not about what is right , what is best for the country

Its about the end game and MPs keeping their seats and everyone being winners

What's best for the country is nothing what the Tories are offering though...


And no one's Winning anything. Well short of the millionaire backers of the ERG and Johnson.

briany

derrymcorry wrote: »

One thing is clear:

A border poll MUST be held before the year is out.

Let Ireland reunify and GB to go their own way out of the EU.

A) That's not how the border poll is supposed to work. It's supposed to be called at a time when it's fairly clear that a majority in the North would want unification. It's not a mechanism to allow the UK to exit the EU smoothly.

Things up north are a bit politically charged at the moment. I don't think this would be the best backdrop for a border poll.

C) Brexit was brought about without hardly a thought given to NI and the peace process. There is no easy answer to the questions being posed to the Brexit movement. They made their bed. Now they must lie in it.

Kermit.de.frog

I suspect Johnson will tell EU leaders he only needs a short technical extension to get the deal through (a couple of weeks).

devnull

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

"One way or another the country will leave with this deal"

Boris Johnson very happy parliament has endorsed the principle of his deal.

Boris Johnson very happy lying once more, more like.

All it means is that the bill goes to the next stage where it can be amended and some of the amendments may make the deal incompatible with anything that the EU would accept so therefore they wouldn't leave with his deal.

Also you'll note that there is something missing in relation to when this is going to happen, he has no idea anymore because it's out of his hands, despite everything which he has said in the past, again he's been caught spoofing and making promises he cannot keep.

He's a proven liar and cannot be trusted. He said he was going to pull the bill as well if they lost but he only paused it.

briany

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I suspect Johnson will tell EU leaders he only needs a short technical extension to get the deal through (a couple of weeks).

Funny, that sounds awfully like he'd be negotiating an extension, which he made it clear he wouldn't do. Besides, I thought the Benn act stipulated that a 3 month extension should be automatically accepted?

MPFGLB

Tea Shock wrote: »

If an amendment is for the deal to go to a referendum, the EU wouldn't stop that

But the whole thing would fall in the HoC anyway! Which means the amendment wouldn't pass in the first place

Who knows what else they'll come up with.
Could an amendment potentially be to not have the final vote until after an election?
EU wouldn't object to that either but would have a chance....I think

The DUP will want a change in the Irish Sea border
Greens & Lib Dems will want a new ref
Labour will want in the costumes Union...maybe DUP will vote with them on this and SNP
Most will want guaranteed alignment with EU worker rights
Freedom of movement may be an option

GM228

tuxy wrote: »

Will amendments have to be approved by the EU?
I guess it depends on what they might be.

They would be amendments to the WAB, not necessarily the WA.

Domestic legislation and it's amendments are of no issue to the EU so long as the WA is adhered to.

Itssoeasy

Jesus just delay it until January(I know) and have a bloody general election and maybe(big ask) get a government with something like a majority however small.

devnull

Queen Speech debate (aka Election show) is back tomorrow and Thursday, much to the amusement of a few people in the background.

Tea Shock

MPFGLB wrote: »

The DUP will want a change in the Irish Sea border
Greens & Lib Dems will want a new ref
Labour will want in the costumes Union...maybe DUP will vote with them on this and SNP
Most will want guaranteed alignment with EU worker rights
Freedom of movement may be an option

The only way of sorting all that out is an election.

Then again....it could very well return a parliament just as divided as the one they have now!

I think Johnson will seek a 1 month extension firstly - With Bercow standing down in 9-days! :rolleyes:

Joe_ Public

That pro johnson guy on sky is rather annoying. He's put pressure on the EU, he says, as if some kind of victory. What pressure on the EU? They can still do what they like.

is_that_so

Hurrache wrote: »

Exactly. Any amendments won't be equal to what the EU agreed to.

It depends what they are. It will be up to the EU to decide to accept or reject the final version.

ancapailldorcha

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Jesus just delay it until January(I know) and have a bloody general election and maybe(big ask) get a government with something like a majority however small.

This just means we'll be back here no time. The deal means only slightly better at the end of next year. If people want to see this farce ended, remain is the only option.

Seth Brundle

devnull wrote: »

Queen Speech debate (aka Election show) is back tomorrow and Thursday.

...with Parliament not sitting on Friday - you'd think they weren't facing some very important deadline next week!
Crazy!

A Dub in Glasgo

He has pulled any other votes and goes into GE mode

derrymcorry

briany wrote: »

A) That's not how the border poll is supposed to work. It's supposed to be called at a time when it's fairly clear that a majority in the North would want unification. It's not a mechanism to allow the UK to exit the EU smoothly.

Things up north are a bit politically charged at the moment. I don't think this would be the best backdrop for a border poll.

C) Brexit was brought about without hardly a thought given to NI and the peace process. There is no easy answer to the questions being posed to the Brexit movement. They made their bed. Now they must lie in it.

A) What is the exact definition of 'fairly clear that a majority of the north would want unification' in the context of the holding of the border poll? Does that mean the SoS can hold it following opinion polls? Censuses? Nationalist majority in the Assembly? I know it doesn't say in the GFA but what are the most likely conditions for it being held?

I don't think that should stop a border poll being held.

C) I couldn't agree more.

is_that_so

listermint wrote: »

Where's all this revisionism coming from!

Just perplexing.

From me or Boris? He'd sell his mother to be right but he's done well with the deal. Mind you, he was back to his usual bolshy self with the "pausing" lark.

is_that_so

Seth Brundle wrote: »

...with Parliament not sitting on Friday - you'd think they weren't facing some very important deadline next week!
Crazy!

He wants to keep his promise. Coming up with and starting negotiations on the new deal in the summer instead of prorogation would have been a more sensible approach.

PropJoe10

Liam Fox talking absolute rubbish on Sky News at the moment, I don't see anything wrong with MPs wanting to scrutinise legislation that will affect the next generation and beyond.

Spanish Eyes

Status quo was fine. I would guess that many who voted Leave had no clue as to how the EU really worked for them. But water under the bridge now.

The Trump/Putin bots got in there first. So here they are.

My gut tells me there is no real desire from UK to leave the EU at all, but many in Westminster are terrified of telling them the truth now.

Imreoir2

derrymcorry wrote: »

One thing is clear:

A border poll MUST be held before the year is out.

Let Ireland reunify and GB to go their own way out of the EU.

While there has been an opinion poll that has shown a majority in favour of a UI, I don't think that on its own is sufficient to satisfy the terms of the GFA.

Itssoeasy

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

This just means we'll be back here no time. The deal means only slightly better at the end of next year. If people want to see this farce ended, remain is the only option.

Yeah I know but look I’m as sick as we all are but I just want it bloody over FFS.

SeaBreezes

That's something I don't understand. no matter what amendments they add, then they have to go back to EU and ask again and again? They're trying to haggle? What happens if EU reject suggested amendments?

listermint

Tea Shock wrote: »

The only way of sorting all that out is an election.

Then again....it could very well return a parliament just as divided as the one they have now!

I think Johnson will seek a 1 month extension firstly - With Bercow standing down in 9-days! :rolleyes:

Election solves nothing.

Run a deal decider referendum. Including a deal. Complete exit no deal and remain.


Then they should decide this in complete because it's not being decided on people's behalf the people can choose.

is_that_so

derrymcorry wrote: »

One thing is clear:

A border poll MUST be held before the year is out.

Let Ireland reunify and GB to go their own way out of the EU.

Hasn't the stupidity of Brexit taught you anything? The year has 9 weeks left and you can write off the last two. That's three weeks at most for legislation and anything else that is required.

Water John

The DUP have given Johnson his bloodied nose. the 10 votes would have got his 3 day scrutiny of the legislation through and given him the possibility of leaving by Oct 31st.

is_that_so

SeaBreezes wrote: »

That's something I don't understand. no matter what amendments they add, then they have to go back to EU and ask again and again? They're trying to haggle? What happens if EU reject suggested amendments?

Then it's a No deal Brexit. As for amendments it depends what they do. Some want a new referendum attached to it. That wouldn't affect anything.

is_that_so

Water John wrote: »

The DUP have given Johnson his bloodied nose. the 10 votes would have got his 3 day scrutiny of the legislation through and given him the possibility of leaving by Oct 31st.

Slapped it more than bloodied it. It still gives him an opportunity to blame others, including the EU.