Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

prawnsambo

sdanseo wrote: »

Sounds like a matter of basic interpretation of the term "reasonable".

No doubt he was being pressured into saying 4-5 weeks was reasonable.
Supreme court quite rightly found it to be "perfectly clear" that it is unreasonable.

He's either been leaned on to say what he said deliberately so that he could be scapegoated or he's a gob****e.

I would say the former tbh. The legal meaning of 'reasonable' is always expressed as a test against something. Like 'reasonable force' for example. In this case it would be a reasonable duration for the purpose stated. I would think he's experienced enough as a lawyer to know that.

Pedro K

Does anybody know what time Johnson is due to make a statement to the HoC? I've been tuning in and out periodically and heard some of Cox's questioning.

Thanks.

prawnsambo

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Well it is GUBU!

I'm in Japan at the minute so catching up with the goings on is not as fluid as it is when I'm home.

Anyone want to post some links to clips from parliament today? Danke.

Well Parliament TV should be your first port of call. You can rewind in max five minute intervals afaik.

prawnsambo

Pedro K wrote: »

Does anybody know what time Johnson is due to make a statement to the HoC? I've been tuning in and out periodically and heard some of Cox's questioning.

Thanks.

Four o'clock apparently.

Dyr

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Significant development at the Labour conference, where members have voted to support freedom of movement - given that had been the party's principal objection to the Single Market, a motion proposing remaining in the European Economic Area could have the numbers to pass in the Commons:

https://twitter.com/labfreemvmt/status/1176809015893995520

Oh man, they're toast in the next election.

weemcd

Bambi wrote: »

Oh man, they're toast in the next election.

Strange spin, considering they campaigned on ending free movement in 2017. It's still incredibly difficult to gauge where Labour stand on everything. Which to me has been their number one problem.

GM228

L1011 wrote: »

Did the Scottish courts not find he had lied to the queen, with that ruling upheld?

No, the Scottish court held "the circumstances demonstrate that the true reason for the prorogation is to reduce the time available for Parliamentary scrutiny of Brexit", the media just painted it as the court declaring specifically he lied to the Queen.

VinLieger

weemcd wrote: »

Strange spin, considering they campaigned on ending free movement in 2017. It's still incredibly difficult to gauge where Labour stand on everything. Which to me has been their number one problem.

Another symptom of Corbyns complete lack of leadership

quokula

weemcd wrote: »

Strange spin, considering they campaigned on ending free movement in 2017. It's still incredibly difficult to gauge where Labour stand on everything. Which to me has been their number one problem.

Their policy was that free movement would end as that was what the public voted for. But they always followed that with a defence of migrants and the desire to continue to have fair and open immigration.

So it's a slight exaggeration to say they "campaigned on ending free movement", more that they begrudgingly accepted that was what the electorate wanted - not like their opposition who enthusiastically campaigned on hardening the border.

This policy is a return to the purity of the principles they believe in, at the possible expense of votes and the power to put those principles into action.

Imreoir2

blackwhite wrote: »

On a fairly important point - that kind of argument is responsible for so much of the partisan and populist BS we see in democracies around the world at the moment.

The role of opposition is to hold the Government to account; to scrutinise Govt policy, and oppose any policies or actions that they see as not in the best interest of the country. A decent opposition party will show support for things that they see as being good policies - albeit with attempts to tweak or amend elements to more suit their own ideologies.

Blanket opposition of everything for the sake of it should never be the role of any responsible opposition party.

This is indeed the case, which is why my further statement clarified that the role of the opposition is not to lie down and allow the government a free hand to do as they please because they won the election.

Imreoir2

prawnsambo wrote: »

Interesting that when asked about it, Cox said that what he said in July about a prorogation being unconstitutional, was in relation to one from 1st September to 31st October. So his opinion seems to be that the duration of the prorogation makes it unconstitutional (and implicitly denying parliamentary oversight of the government) yet at the same time saying that the Supreme Court decision amounts to 'new law'. If he felt that the principle existed prior to the judgment, then he can't be too surprised by it.

Thats a very good point and its a pity nobody in the house thought to point out that contradiction in his position.

CelticRambler

SeaBreezes wrote: »

It's a play for the viewers. He knows most of UK will tune in for the first half hour so he has to get his piece in. No coincidence his voice posture and rhetoric is very like Churchill all he's missing is the cigar...

Over the water, US Supreme Court justice Sonia Sotomayer was asked this week by Trevor Noah what she thought of televising their proceedings. In her answer, she referred to the televising of Congress which she believes has had a negative effect on government, encouraging too much playing to the camera and not enough mature listening/talking to each other (and many of these others not even bothering to turn up any more because they can get an aide to watch the speech on C-SPAN). Given the number of us here who admit tuning in to our House of Commons livestream of choice for the drama and fireworks, she has a point.

Imreoir2

Bambi wrote: »

Oh man, they're toast in the next election.

I would not be so sure, all the evidence suggests that the importance of immigration as an issue in British society has declined significantly since the referendum. The pressure felt over a parties stance on the issue of FoM is not what it once was.

BarryD2

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Leaving the Customs Union is not the will of the people, leaving the single market is not the will of the people, leaving the EU with no-deal is not the will of the people. Anyone who says otherwise is lying.

May well be the case, but then can anyone say what is the 'will of the people' as regards their Brexit referendum? You're caught up in the same old rhetoric of saying what the UK doesn't want, but what do they want?

interlocked

[QUOTE=quokula;111344153
This policy is a return to the purity of the principles they believe in, at the possible expense of votes and the power to put those principles into action.[/QUOTE]

You can say that again, this is from the Guardian live

The motion also opposed immigration systems based on a person’s income or “utility to big business” and any caps or targets on the numbers of people moving to the UK.

Good luck campaigning on that in the Labour heartlands that voted Leave.
The sheer naivety is stunning

Imreoir2

BarryD2 wrote: »

May well be the case, but then can anyone say what is the 'will of the people' as regards their Brexit referendum? You're caught up in the same old rhetoric of saying what the UK doesn't want, but what do they want?

They have no idea. They want the unicorn that a conman sold them. They want a Brexit that is good for Britian where no such Brexit exists in reality. They want what they can't have and are on the verge of throwing a tantrum about it.

CelticRambler

BarryD2 wrote: »

can anyone say what is the 'will of the people' as regards their Brexit referendum? You're caught up in the same old rhetoric of saying what the UK doesn't want, but what do they want?

Good question. Maybe someone should ask them ... :rolleyes:

Zubeneschamali

interlocked wrote: »

Good luck campaigning on that in the Labour heartlands that voted Leave.

Polling shows that Labour Leave voters will not shift to the Tories no matter what, so where will they go? To Farage?? Worse again.

Arghus

Gove is such a polished talker that you'd nearly believe him.

Shelga

Michael Gove blethering on about exit preparations. Not sure if this is relating purely to no-deal prep or not, I missed the beginning. His voice makes me want to claw my face off though.

jimmycrackcorm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Polling shows that Labour Leave voters will not shift to the Tories no matter what, so where will they go? To Farage?? Worse again.

It's another symptom of FPTP. Whereas in the most recent by-election, the Tory majority vote was spilt between then and the BP leading to a LibDem win when the Tories and BP had a combined higher vote.

Joe_ Public

Gove's a total snake but a great man for the one-liners, the devil does always get the best lines they often say.

Tell me how

Shelga wrote: »

Michael Gove blethering on about exit preparations. Not sure if this is relating purely to no-deal prep or not, I missed the beginning. His voice makes me want to claw my face off though.

Just saying now 'The backstop can be replaced with alternative arrangements'......

He does speak well, in terms of delivery, even if what he says makes as much sense as the rest of them.

SeaBreezes

Shelga wrote: »

Michael Gove blethering on about exit preparations. Not sure if this is relating purely to no-deal prep or not, I missed the beginning. His voice makes me want to claw my face off though.

He has a tell, his voice speeds up when he's lying, like he's trying to distract you verbally and not get caught.

It slows again when he's being truthful

PropJoe10

BarryD2 wrote: »

May well be the case, but then can anyone say what is the 'will of the people' as regards their Brexit referendum? You're caught up in the same old rhetoric of saying what the UK doesn't want, but what do they want?

It's too late to judge the 2016 referendum as being the will of the people now anyway. 3.5 years is a long time in society never mind in politics. The Brexiteers are hanging onto that referendum for dear life at this point. No Deal would be completely anti-democratic in my view.

BarryD2

Imreoir2 wrote: »

They have no idea. They want the unicorn that a conman sold them. They want a Brexit that is good for Britian where no such Brexit exists in reality. They want what they can't have and are on the verge of throwing a tantrum about it.

Yes, but we don't really have any ideas either. Other than them having another referendum and choosing to stay in. There's a lot of talk of division but how much of that is just hype and talk? Even if you judged by street protests, there were massive Remain crowds on the streets of London back in March, whilst the Leave marchers were relatively tiny in number. With a bit of leadership, I think Remain would be carried easily with a significant majority. But maybe that's just wishful thinking.

boggerman1

The performance from the Tories is just well not unbelievable actually.they just coming out roaring as if the past couple of weeks never happened.gove is such an unlikeable person.you know he's not telling the truth when his mouth is moving.if according ti him just now that British business is so well prepared for no deal then she doesn't Boris go to the EU tomorrow and say we're off.bluffers

Joe_ Public

BarryD2 wrote: »

Yes, but we don't really have any ideas either. Other than them having another referendum and choosing to stay in. There's a lot of talk of division but how much of that is just hype and talk? Even if you judged by street protests, there were massive Remain crowds on the streets of London back in March, whilst the Leave marchers were relatively tiny in number. With a bit of leadership, I think Remain would be carried easily with a significant majority. But maybe that's just wishful thinking.

You could be right, think it would be a close run thing myself, maybe a reverse 52-48 of last vote, but just a hunch on my part. One thing i'm certain is of the deep division in uk over it, definitely not hype imo. Was watching bbc earlier this morning and the hostility among the various interview subjects, both mps and members of public, was startling. There was one surreal moment when one guy - a leave turned remain voter - was asking whether he'd be able to access medicine for his 5 year old child in event of a no deal while a conservative leave lady was trying to assure him by saying she'd no problem getting a chair delivered from china. Surreal moment. But i've no doubt about the level of anger and division out there.

Joe_ Public

Conservative MP in the house actually claiming that the SNP is actively pursuing a no deal brexit. Astonishing what some of these people come out with sometimes.

Tell me how

Has there ever been a case where someone contested for party leader and lost twice before winning on the 3rd attempt?
Gove is definitely streets ahead of Johnson, Davis, Raab, McVeigh, Javid, Leadsom in terms of mental dexterity and oration.

Not saying what he is saying makes sense or is factual or will build confidence but he does sound like he knows what he is talking about.