Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

Forty Seven

VinLieger wrote: »

Forty Seven wrote: »

We could be facing a civil and/or a European war here. Jo Cox should not be bandied around like archduke Franz Ferdinand to score cheap, emotive political points.

Wait....... what? You have completely jumped the shark

Really? You think this is going to end without bloodshed?

We are on about chapter 5 of the future bestseller 'WW3 a complete history'.

Chapter 1 was the financial crisis. We are at the polarisation phase and mistrust of political systems. Soon will come the strong leaders.

Chips Lovell

Johnson's performance yesterday is the clearest indication yet that he has no intention of bringing any form of a withdrawal agreement before the current parliament. This is not a PM who is preparing to build consensus. It's a PM who's preparing for an election. The campaign started yesterday.

There'll be three more weeks of bluster and going through the motions before he's forced to ask for an extension on October 19.

GM228

https://twitter.com/SkyNewsPolitics/status/1177143098268442624?s=19

"Urgent question" to be debated later, perhaps the VONC (the motion of censure Lewis Goodall mentioned last night) or something else??

Enzokk

MrMusician18 wrote: »

There is no rule prohibiting him from being PM again if he resigns.

I was taking a chance on that as I wasn't sure, but there is no way for Johnson to make an election happen himself. He tried to get a 2/3 majority and failed. I don't know if he can call a vote of confidence in himself but how would that look to the world? He can only resign but even then it doesn't lead to an election as it didn't when he became PM or May. So he is stuck, powerless and forced to try and get the opposition to get what he wants as he reduced his majority by his own actions.

I hope that if there is no VONC that the opposition doesn't vote for a recess for the Tory conference. Don't give them what they want, that should be mantra from the opposition parties. If he wants a conference, don't give it to him. If he wants an election, don't give it to him. If he doesn't want to send a letter for an extension, force him to do it. Make him as powerless as possible, he and Cummings will become more and more erratic and it should hurt him at an election.

GM228

Moving to other Brexit related news, latest ESRI report available:-

https://twitter.com/ESRIDublin/status/1177139040207933440?s=19

Possible recession again for Ireland and a supplementary budget in the event of no deal.

FrancieBrady

GM228 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/SkyNewsPolitics/status/1177143098268442624?s=19

"Urgent question" to be debated later, perhaps the VONC (the motion of censure Lewis Goodall mentioned last night) or something else??

Didn't Rees Mogg intimate he was bringing something 'special' to the house today too? Wonder what is going on.

Forty Seven

woejus wrote: »

dinorebel wrote: »

Well that's utterly wrong his only ever position has been to be Prime Minister he was pro Europe for years until he saw Brexit as his means to get the job.

In an interview with ITV News, the former UK prime minister disclosed that Johnson had told him the campaign to leave the EU would be “crushed like a toad under the harrow”. Minutes later, Johnson appeared outside his then family home in Islington, north London, to say he would join the Vote Leave team during the 2016 referendum.

The man wrote two articles to cover both eventualities. He's a craven charlatan and he's playing well meaning Brexit voters such as Forty Seven here like a lute


When he had a majority of one, he didn't want an election; now he has a negative majority of 40 or so, he wants an election. This all during his brief, dazzling tenure as PM

I voted remain.

Penn

GM228 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/SkyNewsPolitics/status/1177143098268442624?s=19

"Urgent question" to be debated later, perhaps the VONC (the motion of censure Lewis Goodall mentioned last night) or something else??

It's a question about the toxic culture from yesterday's debate, being brought forward by Ken Clarke and Harriet Harman

Edit: Sorry, question will be by Jess Philips on the argument from last night. Discussions Bercow has had with two senior MPs regarding same were with Clarke and Harman

VinLieger

Forty Seven wrote: »

I voted remain.

Nobody believes you

Forty Seven

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Forty Seven wrote: »

Clearly he is acting in the countries best interest.

Yeh?
How is he doing that then? 6 votes lost, at the brink of No Deal and lying through his teeth about 'progress' nobody else is seeing.

The parliament is not the country. An election or another referendum will show that hence the reason we are getting neither.

Forty Seven

SeaBreezes wrote: »

Forty Seven wrote: »

Yes. He didn't dig her up. Her own successor did. In a bid to score emotive points.

We could be facing a civil and/or a European war here. Jo Cox should not be bandied around like archduke Franz Ferdinand to score cheap, emotive political points.

He did not start it. He had to reply. It would be controversial whatever he said. An abhorrent tactic by his opponent.

His reply was abhorrent. The man is a d***. I'm quite stunned anyone could defend that cowardly bully.

Running from uk protestors in Luxembourg, rambling incoherently at the UN and insulting and endangering fellow MPs. Disgusting.

Glad I'm irish and our politicians are intelligent, reasoned, eloquent and well regarded world wide.

Mortified for the UK that this is what they are presenting to the world.

How will they negotiate deals after this when the world sees them as incitors to violence against women? As idiots who cannot speak coherently? How will that help trade deals?

I can't see any way out of this for the Uk now. If they leave no deal they are fcuked. Negotiating from a position of weakness never bodes well for the weaker party..

If they don't leave the thugs will, encouraged by Boris, tear society apart.

A deal is the only way out now. And I'm beginning to think the EU is now regretting the WA cause they know now, they could have got a better one if they waited for UK to crash out.

Hyperbole of the highest order. As for your politicians, does anyone want me to give examples dismissing your claim? It's an embarrassing list.

I will apologise here to all for the one line answers but I can't respond to all with full statements. Especially when they are so easily dismissed as this.

Bannasidhe

Forty Seven wrote: »

The parliament is not the country. An election or another referendum will show that hence the reason we are getting neither.

The reason neither is currently scheduled is because a) The Tory government refused to call a 2nd referendum. One wonders why when they claim Brexit is the 'will of the people'. Surely in that case it will be a slam dunk for Leave? b) A GE has not been completely ruled out, it has been clearly stated a GE will occur when No Deal if off the table and an extension has officially been requested. Boris will get his GE when he has carried out the instructions of parliament.

A Dub in Glasgo

Forty Seven wrote: »

The parliament is not the country. An election or another referendum will show that hence the reason we are getting neither.

The Tories have consistently ruled out another referendum and instead want to press the accelerator on crashing out of the EU on 31 Oct with the brake disabled. All the other parties (bar the DUP) want the brake to be applied and then go to the country for a general election, you are saying this is akin to a coup

Forty Seven

VinLieger wrote: »

Forty Seven wrote: »

I voted remain.

Nobody believes you

I lived in Galway 15 years, Poland for 2 and my children are distributed between Ireland, Spain and one will be born tomorrow here in the UK. I own land in Poland and a house in Ireland. I'd be mad to have voted to leave.

MrMusician18

SeaBreezes wrote: »

His reply was abhorrent. The man is a d***. I'm quite stunned anyone could defend that cowardly bully.

Running from uk protestors in Luxembourg, rambling incoherently at the UN and insulting and endangering fellow MPs. Disgusting.

Glad I'm irish and our politicians are intelligent, reasoned, eloquent and well regarded world wide.

Mortified for the UK that this is what they are presenting to the world.

How will they negotiate deals after this when the world sees them as incitors to violence against women? As idiots who cannot speak coherently? How will that help trade deals?

I can't see any way out of this for the Uk now. If they leave no deal they are fcuked. Negotiating from a position of weakness never bodes well for the weaker party..

If they don't leave the thugs will, encouraged by Boris, tear society apart.

A deal is the only way out now. And I'm beginning to think the EU is now regretting the WA cause they know now, they could have got a better one if they waited for UK to crash out.

They are? Since when?

Enzokk

Forty Seven wrote: »

The parliament is not the country. An election or another referendum will show that hence the reason we are getting neither.

Brexit has a yes or no answer. The way to get an answer is to have a referendum that will have a yes or no question. Why are they so afraid of the answer?

Forty Seven

MrMusician18 wrote: »

SeaBreezes wrote: »

His reply was abhorrent. The man is a d***. I'm quite stunned anyone could defend that cowardly bully.

Running from uk protestors in Luxembourg, rambling incoherently at the UN and insulting and endangering fellow MPs. Disgusting.

Glad I'm irish and our politicians are intelligent, reasoned, eloquent and well regarded world wide.

Mortified for the UK that this is what they are presenting to the world.

How will they negotiate deals after this when the world sees them as incitors to violence against women? As idiots who cannot speak coherently? How will that help trade deals?

I can't see any way out of this for the Uk now. If they leave no deal they are fcuked. Negotiating from a position of weakness never bodes well for the weaker party..

If they don't leave the thugs will, encouraged by Boris, tear society apart.

A deal is the only way out now. And I'm beginning to think the EU is now regretting the WA cause they know now, they could have got a better one if they waited for UK to crash out.

They are? Since when?

I'm showing incredible restraint in not listing to my hearts content.

VinLieger

Forty Seven wrote: »

I lived in Galway 15 years, Poland for 2 and my children are distributed between Ireland, Spain and one will be born tomorrow here in the UK. I own land in Poland and a house in Ireland. I'd be mad to have voted to leave.

Your ardent support of Boris and general rhetoric tell another story

lawred2

Forty Seven wrote: »

I lived in Galway 15 years, Poland for 2 and my children are distributed between Ireland, Spain and one will be born tomorrow here in the UK. I own land in Poland and a house in Ireland. I'd be mad to have voted to leave.

But yet here you are singing loudly from a Brexiteer hymn sheet

dinorebel

Forty Seven wrote: »

I voted remain.

As did Boris.





Allegedly/Possibly

Forty Seven

VinLieger wrote: »

Forty Seven wrote: »

I lived in Galway 15 years, Poland for 2 and my children are distributed between Ireland, Spain and one will be born tomorrow here in the UK. I own land in Poland and a house in Ireland. I'd be mad to have voted to leave.

Your ardent support of Boris and general rhetoric tell another story

I am not a Tory voter. I'm having a discussion. I'm using it to form a more informed opinion. There is not a party that represents me. I voted remain because it suited my situation. I have it no more thought than that. I am therefore as guilty as the leavers. Acting in self interest without all the facts. Everyone here is arguing in their own self interests too. Nobody is right. The two extremes and everything in between are still firmly on the table.
None of this is a done deal and history will be the judge of which position was correct. Anything else is conjecture. Some people on both sides can't seem to see that. I'm not one of them.

sandbelter

Forty Seven wrote: »

Really? You think this is going to end without bloodshed?

We are on about chapter 5 of the future bestseller 'WW3 a complete history'.

Chapter 1 was the financial crisis. We are at the polarisation phase and mistrust of political systems. Soon will come the strong leaders.

No truer statement said.

I've always thought it would come to this, no deal was always the default agreement...everything else required leadership and consensus of which there was and is none.

But the economics of British crash out doesn't worry me longer term....Ireland's economy is flexible enough to cope, and I won't pretend it will be easy. NZ and Australia did in the 1970's and never looked back.

It's the politics that frighten me. We have yet to see how Europe changes post Brexit.

lawred2

Enzokk wrote: »

Brexit has a yes or no answer. The way to get an answer is to have a referendum that will have a yes or no question. Why are they so afraid of the answer?

well the last one had a yes or no answer too...

Enzokk

lawred2 wrote: »

well the last one had a yes or no answer too...

Ha, true. Nuance though for the last one...in that the one answer had 4 options below it that contradicted each other.

Forty Seven

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Forty Seven wrote: »

The parliament is not the country. An election or another referendum will show that hence the reason we are getting neither.

The Tories have consistently ruled out another referendum and instead want to press the accelerator on crashing out of the EU on 31 Oct with the brake disabled. All the other parties (bar the DUP) want the brake to be applied and then go to the country for a general election, you are saying this is akin to a coup

Iirc. I challenged the hypocrisy of woohoo when he used inflammatory terminology while inciting anger at similar terminology. Then I had a discussion about the mechanism (ftpa) which could allow this. I don't recall saying anything about a coup?

Water John

The real Boris stood up last night. This is not the bumbling simpleton image he carefully cultivated, this was Boris showing his bare teeth. It wasn't a pleasant sight.
Andrew Marr alerted us some years ago to that. He knew the real Boris and said to his face, 'you are a nasty man, aren't you?'

Any one who votes with him now, owns him and what he stands for.

Glad Clarke and Harman are using their status to deal with this.
Bercow pointedly tried to rein in Boris last night but Boris didn't care. He behaved like a cornered rat.

devnull

I have to say that what we're seeing with the Tory Party now is a move towards the kind of attitudes and displays that you expect from the Republican Party in the US and with every day it seems to be more the case than the one before.

They think that as long as they will get success at elections then they see no problem with having a leader who says things that they would have seriously objected to and never accepted in the past but now due to the extreme shift to the right, these things are now extremely acceptable.

People say that the ERG are a party within the Convervative Party. That's no longer the case. The ERG are at the wheel and have took over the party and all of those outside the ERG have either been sidelined, or expelled. It is effectively the ERG party now, in all but name.

FrancieBrady

Forty Seven wrote: »

The parliament is not the country. An election or another referendum will show that hence the reason we are getting neither.

So will you be voting Remain again of there is an election or Ref?

20silkcut

sandbelter wrote: »

No truer statement said.

I've always thought it would come to this, no deal was always the default agreement...everything else required leadership and consensus of which there was and is none.

But the economics of British crash out doesn't worry me longer term....Ireland's economy is flexible enough to cope, and I won't pretend it will be easy. NZ and Australia did in the 1970's and never looked back.

It's the politics that frighten me. We have yet to see how Europe changes post Brexit.

The frightening thought is that we have had 70 years of peace in the worlds most historically violent war torn continent.
Maybe it’s an unnaturally long period.

prawnsambo

Forty Seven wrote: »

Yes. He didn't dig her up. Her own successor did. In a bid to score emotive points.

We could be facing a civil and/or a European war here. Jo Cox should not be bandied around like archduke Franz Ferdinand to score cheap, emotive political points.

He did not start it. He had to reply. It would be controversial whatever he said. An abhorrent tactic by his opponent.

You are completely misrepresenting what Paula Sheriff said and why. This narrative is all over social media as some kind of justification for Johnson's response and it doesn't stand up to any kind of scrutiny. He was warned that the kind of language he was using was putting MP's lives in danger. Death threats against MPs are rife and it's hardly a stretch to suggest that the lesson of Jo Cos is being forgotten. And just a page back, you're talking about civil war and bloodshed. How do you get from where we are now to there? Via inflammatory language from would be political hard men, that's how.