Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

Infini

Enter name here wrote: »

Correct, Bercow should have been removed from the chair the 1st time he bent the rules and showed his bias. Then the whole thing would be over by now.

You must be having a laugh. This whole situation is because those who narrowly won a referendum in which the winning side cheated, would have been declared null and void if it had been binding, have lied and have no plan whatsoever have tried ramming the worst possible result through either because they're utterly so vainglorious as to not care about the damage or because they have vested interests in cashing in on the chaos of a crash.

Bercow has essentially had the job for the last few years of having to keep order on an increasingly toxic and bitter parliment because those on in the Tories expecially in the last few weeks have embraced the strategy of poisoning the well with the same inflamatory bile that the Sun,Express,Telegraph and Mail have been doing so for years to goad people into chasing phandom enemies that never existed and to distract and decieve for an ulterior agenda. He is not the problem in this and never was it's those in the Tories who cant get their own way blaming him as a distraction because they can't compromise and agree the best way foward but want their own way and nothing else.

The scenes were witnessing right now are because even the Remain side is getting increasingly frustraited by the increasingly toxic and beligerent rhetoric from Boris and co because their motive seems to crash the UK out no matter the damage and are intentonally using the same bile as those newpapers to goad them. I'm actually wondering if this level of shíte is not guilty of incitred to hatred because the object of this seem to rile people up until they start rioting against phantom enemies created by this toxic party and their media enablers.

If any of those in the Tories still even consider themselves remotely honorable at this stage they need to take a step back and take a long look in the mirror, this plan has no positive end, it will likely damage them further, it could haunt them in the long run and it could even see people and MP's being killed because this poisionous dialoge tips things over into anarchy because the stupidest and thickest of those have lost or never had the capability to reason and be objective would decend into violence to get their own way all for their belief in a pile of lies and illusions.

The only way this could end peacefully is if enough of them finally realise that this whole debacle is basically corroding their whole country into a cesspool of violence, hate and idiotic stupidity and realise that not only do they need an agreement with the EU for any withdrawal as no deal is not a plan but an utter trainwreck that will destroy them but any agreement will need to be decided in a Binding vote between that agreement and remaining. Corbyns plan isnt ideal but it's viable enough to allow a decision to be made but this time with both options having a plan not the mess were seeing now.

I honestly wonder if those over there are of such dim intelligence at times that they have to literally kill one another before they realise how utterly stupid, regressive, thick and arrogant they're acting against their own countrymen because they cant admit their own arguments are shoddy and hollow and they were gullable enough to believe the shíte out of liars and cheats over those who actually gave a damn about their country.

An Ciarraioch

Thankfully, appears the Order of Council loophole was abolished in 1688:

https://twitter.com/tc1415/status/1177284558359863296

Tell me how

listermint wrote: »

The dogs on the street this whole bizarre episode is to the benefit a very slim few multi millionaires. It's solely to benefit their bets , their pending transactions in a disaster market fire sale , their reduction of standards and labour rights to reduce their costs and boost their profits.

Its beyond bizarre that the man on the street is screaming and shouting for it.

Theres no restraint required these people are morons. There isn't another word. Morons.

Well, the man on the street (in this context) is enraged that they voted for something which has not been delivered and so they feel democracy is being railroaded.

This is the nucleus of the two largest populist moves in recent years. Trump and Brexit, both using shady tactics to appeal to people and using a lot of rhetoric applying that they are against the establishment which has ridden roughshod over people for so long. And it worked, for both of them.

I don't believe that 50% +/- 5% of the populations of both countries are morons but they are passionately in support of both initiatives (Trump/Brexit) which, to my mind absolutely flys in the face of logic and reason.

But they aren't sitting anywhere this evening thinking their position doesn't make sense, they feel as strongly about it as we do. That is the fascinating part of it. And just trying to overcome or change the situation by saying they are wrong is actually strengthening them. Why wouldn't it.

FrancieBrady

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Thankfully, appears the Order of Council loophole was abolished in 1688:

https://twitter.com/tc1415/status/1177284558359863296

Who knows really, there were several schools of 'expert' thought on prorogation too.
We live in bizarre times.

listermint

Tell me how wrote: »

Well, the man on the street (in this context) is enraged that they voted for something which has not been delivered and so they feel democracy is being railroaded.

This is the nucleus of the two largest populist moves in recent years. Trump and Brexit, both using shady tactics to appeal to people and using a lot of rhetoric applying that they are against the establishment which has ridden roughshod over people for so long. And it worked, for both of them.

I don't believe that 50% +/- 5% of the populations of both countries are morons but they are passionately in support of both initiatives (Trump/Brexit) which, to my mind absolutely flys in the face of logic and reason.

But they aren't sitting anywhere this evening thinking their position doesn't make sense, they feel as strongly about it as we do. That is the fascinating part of it. And just trying to overcome or change the situation by saying they are wrong is actually strengthening them. Why wouldn't it.

No I disagree. If you are told by posh speaking boys from Eton that labour and the likes of Jess Philips are the establishment and you believe it.

Your a bloody moron. If 50% go around thinking that then theyre morons.


After ten plus years of Tory cuts your blaming the opposition. Your a moron

Rjd2

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Agree with you of course, but just to be fair, Emily Thornberry did at least have the good grace to apologise for that taliban comment and clearly regretted it. I was thoroughly dismayed, however, to see her colleague Neil Coyle totally lose his head in a twitter spat with Piers Morgan. Not only does it give the right wingers an easy excuse to resort to whatabouttery, but the likes of Morgan are just not worth it. The Michelle Obama stay high doctrine should be indelibly branded into all their souls.

Aye she did say sorry pretty sharpish tbf, and as others have pointed out with the Tory MP I linked to while obviously its terrible for her, that's likely the work of thugs who probably don't know or care what Brexit is or what party she is affiliated to.

On Coyle not going to express much of an opinion on him, but anyone no matter their politics who keep failing for Piers trolling is an idiot. I suppose the idea of loads of retweets for an established MP was to tempting though.:rolleyes:

Even if he had got thousands Piers would not have given a ****.

Enzokk

Here is the confrontation of Cummings with the Labour MP,

https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1177267716769624065?s=20

He seems to be the cancer at the heart of government right now. What else could explain how volatile it has been since he has been let in No.10?

Tell me how

listermint wrote: »

No I disagree. If you are told by posh speaking boys from Eton that labour and the likes of Jess Philips are the establishment and you believe it.

Your a bloody moron. If 50% go around thinking that then theyre morons.


After ten plus years of Tory cuts your blaming the opposition. Your a moron

I understand your position but I think it is too simplistic while certainly being the case for some people. Some just want to see the establishment get a kicking and the thought of that smarmy pr*ck off the telly (whoever they might be) losing is enough for them to pledge their allegiance to the other side.

But, I am in the US at the moment and have had numerous conversations with people who both support Trump, and have extensive education, professional and life experiences which disqualifies them from being considered morons.
I still disagree with their logic, but they speak equally passionately about how manipulative the left is in demeaning the right and that they are sick of either being ignored or treated like idiots.

It's being point out to me that Fox News is the sole Network standing up to the liberal rhetoric of CNN, ABC, MSNBC etc. So, if you ask them to show you an example of 'state media' ignoring reality and trying to support a candidate, they are going to bring a clip from someone other than Fox to the table, and they will believe it as strongly as some of us look at Fox and think it is criminal what they do.

listermint

Tell me how wrote: »

I understand your position but I think it is too simplistic while certainly being the case for some people. Some just want to see the establishment get a kicking and the thought of that smarmy pr*ck off the telly (whoever they might be) losing is enough for them to pledge their allegiance to the other side.

But, I am in the US at the moment and have had numerous conversations with people who both support Trump, and have extensive education, professional and life experiences which disqualifies them from being considered morons.
I still disagree with their logic, but they speak equally passionately about how manipulative the left is in demeaning the right and that they are sick of either being ignored or treated like idiots.

It's being point out to me that Fox News is the sole Network standing up to the liberal rhetoric of CNN, ABC, MSNBC etc. So, if you ask them to show you an example of 'state media' ignoring reality and trying to support a candidate, they are going to bring a clip from someone other than Fox to the table, and they will believe it as strongly as some of us look at Fox and think it is criminal what they do.

That's the point.

The establishment is the Tories they've been in power for ten plus years.

They are the establishment. So who are you kicking ? Labour ? The greens ?


You can't get any simpler.

Morons.

bobbyss

Where is Theresa May? I never see her in the HoCommons. Never see her at all. Where is she sitting?

FrancieBrady

bobbyss wrote: »

Where is Theresa May? I never see her in the HoCommons. Never see her at all. Where is she sitting?

She sat beside Ken Clarke on the last big vote. Smiling.

For Forks Sake

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Thankfully, appears the Order of Council loophole was abolished in 1688:

https://twitter.com/tc1415/status/1177284558359863296

Johnson tries to pull that sort of stunt the whole time, here's a previous example:

https://twitter.com/BarristerSecret/status/1047136347075596288

Charles Babbage

FrancieBrady wrote: »

She sat beside Ken Clarke on the last big vote. Smiling.

The ERG wouldn't vote for her deal, but there is a real risk now of the parliament driving a softer deal.

bobbyss

FrancieBrady wrote:

She sat beside Ken Clarke on the last big vote. Smiling.

I see. Has she spoken since the new leader took over? Are there assigned seats for MPs?

Frank Bullitt

https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1177262899405959168

Looks like it is still par for the course so.

FrancieBrady

bobbyss wrote: »

I see. Has she spoken since the new leader took over? Are there assigned seats for MPs?

Clarke always sits in the same place anyhow. Don't know if that is because he is like the regular in the local...a fixture.
I'm not aware of May speaking since she fell on her sword.

Shelga

listermint wrote: »

The dogs on the street know this whole bizarre episode is to the benefit a very slim few multi millionaires. It's solely to benefit their bets , their pending transactions in a disaster market fire sale , their reduction of standards and labour rights to reduce their costs and boost their profits.

Its beyond bizarre that the man on the street is screaming and shouting for it.

Theres no restraint required these people are morons. There isn't another word. Morons.

Totally agree. Sick of hearing them whinge at being called morons. Also sick of hearing them scream "Nothing has been done! Get us out!"

Literally all parliament has tried to do for 3 years is deal with Brexit. It's an extremely complicated, never mind pointless, thing to try and do. Anyone who doesn't acknowledge this is indeed a complete moron. You can still want to leave the EU while recognising how difficult it is.

lawred2

I've been out of the loop all day.. has anything of particular significance happened?

Alun

Didn't JRM say something momentous was going to be announced today? Can't remember anything.

FrancieBrady

lawred2 wrote: »

I've been out of the loop all day.. has anything of particular significance happened?

Tory's not getting to go to conference.

Rjd2

Shelga wrote: »

Totally agree. Sick of hearing them whinge at being called morons. Also sick of hearing them scream "Nothing has been done! Get us out!"

Literally all parliament has tried to do for 3 years is deal with Brexit. It's an extremely complicated, never mind pointless, thing to try and do. Anyone who doesn't acknowledge this is indeed a complete moron. You can still want to leave the EU while recognising how difficult it is.

May is actually looking very good right now:P

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10014429/boris-johnson-cabinet-revolt-deal/

From Dunn of the Sun who is very well connected.

Essentially Boris will be told he will have to lower his expectations to get Brexit. Its not bad advise but I can't see Boris taking it in.

I suspect he foolishly believes his solid numbers in the polls are due to his genius rather than the fact that pretty much anybody would be beating Corbyn in his role.

I reckon Cummings loves this culture wars ****e, but Boris isn't as shrewd as Trump was when it comes to exploiting it. He also does not have the numbers to get away with it either in the house.

Rjd2

Alun wrote: »

Didn't JRM say something momentous was going to be announced today? Can't remember anything.

Was thinking it was his beloved Somerset winning the county championship, but alas not to be. Nothing on his twitter bar chatting about dementia which is a good idea but not sure it counts as momentous.

jimmycrackcorm

prawnsambo wrote: »

Interestingly, Cummings' uncle (a very eminent lawyer apparently) said much the same in an interview with the New Statesman. Basically that Cameron had pitted direct democracy against representative democracy and that the dangers were clear and obvious.

Just to restate the obvious difference :

Representative democracy is where your MPs have to state and listen to the divergent viewpoints.
Direct democracy is basically you just go with what the daily mail writes.

lawred2

Rjd2 wrote: »

May is actually looking very good right now:P

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10014429/boris-johnson-cabinet-revolt-deal/

From Dunn of the Sun who is very well connected.

Essentially Boris will be told he will have to lower his expectations to get Brexit. Its not bad advise but I can't see Boris taking it in.

I suspect he foolishly believes his solid numbers in the polls are due to his genius rather than the fact that pretty much anybody would be beating Corbyn in his role.

I reckon Cummings loves this culture wars ****e, but Boris isn't as shrewd as Trump was when it comes to exploiting it. He also does not have the numbers to get away with it either in the house.

Senior ministers expect EU power brokers - lead by Germany’s Angela Merkel - to offer the embattled Tory leader a last minute compromise, such as a three year time limit on the backstop.

Head in hands. Three years later and still printing the same crap.

bobbyss

The day after May lost she was at the cricket England against Ireland at Lords I think. The Commons was in session that day. What struck me was: can i just take a day off and have a day fishing or something? Isnt she paid to sit in Parliament?

Shelga

It is embarrassing, contrasting the level of stupidity shown by the QT audience, with the intelligence and calmness of Gina Miller. I don’t know how she keeps on doing it, day after day, in the face of such utter, complete ignorance and abuse.

boggerman1

More round and round in circles on question time from Wales.james cleverly refused to say that Johnson should apologize.

Rjd2

bobbyss wrote: »

The day after May lost she was at the cricket England against Ireland at Lords I think. The Commons was in session that day. What struck me was: can i just take a day off and have a day fishing or something? Isnt she paid to sit in Parliament?

She was a backbencher at the time and wasn't it the day after Boris took charge?

May was clueless when it came to Brexit, but nobody could deny she put the hours in if sadly for her just not that productively.

Great match that test with Ireland and she is a genuine cricket fan also tbf.

prawnsambo

boggerman1 wrote: »

More round and round in circles on question time from Wales.james cleverly refused to say that Johnson should apologize.

There are two ways of reading that and I read it the wrong way the first time.
I suppose you could say it was clever to refuse.

Tell me how

Ok, I would not be countering any post suggesting this individual is a moron.

https://twitter.com/ITVNewsPolitics/status/1176811495876943872

The eyes have it (the madness within)