Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

anotherfinemess

Theecologist.org has an article on the 'Tufton street gang', which is said to be a bunch of right wingers influenced and largely funded by US Trump supporter types who have engineered brexit.

I have always thought that the unnecesary introduction of the DUP into the equation could have been part of a carefully choreographed chaos, the main aim being to exit the EU without a deal. Whatever it is they are cooking up to follow Oct 31, it won't be designed to be doing us much good at all. The article in the Ecologist details links between various political and business figures who want to see a close trading relationship between US/UK.

An Ciarraioch

Groundhog Day after the Barnier-Barclay meeting:

https://twitter.com/DanielFerrie/status/1177590691125497859

FrancieBrady

joe_99 wrote: »

Political Britain is different than geographical Britain.

.

Great Britain, therefore, is a geographic term referring to the island also known simply as Britain. It’s also a political term for the part of the United Kingdom made up of England, Scotland, and Wales (including the outlying islands that they administer, such as the Isle of Wight). United Kingdom, on the other hand, is purely a political term: it’s the independent country that encompasses all of Great Britain and the region now called Northern Ireland.

GM228

joe40 wrote: »

I always assumed Britain referred to the "Island" comprising England Scotland and Wales. learn something new everyday.

Great Britain is England, Scotland and Wales.

Britain however, stems from Britannia (Roman Britain), when the Romans invaded England and Wales during the Gallic Wars.

Great Britain was a term used in marriages between Scottish and Englash Kings daughters from the mid 15th century.

Then England, Scotland and Wales became collectively know as Great Britain in 1707 under the terms of the Union with Scotland Act 1706:-

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/aep/Ann/6/11

That the two Kingdoms of England and Scotland shall upon the First day of May which shall be in the year One thousand seven hundred and seven and for ever after be united into one Kingdom by the name of Great Britain

Great Britain is effectively a statutory title for united English (Wales had joined the English kingdom in 1536) and Scottish kingdoms.

Ends history lesson.

Varta

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Who is Cummings, he looks like some homeless guy who drifted in off the street. Where does his power over everyone come from? What has he over everyone to be so influential

He is the UK's Rasputin. To get rid of him they will have to shoot, stab and poison him and then toss him in the Thames.

Tell me how

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Who is Cummings, he looks like some homeless guy who drifted in off the street. Where does his power over everyone come from? What has he over everyone to be so influential

He lead the vote leave campaign and before that, back as far as 1999 he has been involved in the dirty side of politics (as in the behind closed doors arguing and insulting) through serving as advisor or chief of staff on behalf of prominent Conservative Politicians including Michael Gove and Ian Duncan Smyth before Boris. He also fought strongly against the UK adopting the euro and formed one of those 'racists in suits' think tank organisations for a period.

Think of Malcolm Tucker (The Thick of It) except in the first episode if Malcolm had gone on a 3 minute tirade of how much the EU f*cks the UK daily, how any liberal advocates are just snowflakes in sheeps clothing and then spent the rest of the series acting to separate the UK from the EU.

lawred2

Strazdas wrote: »

Brendan O'Neill urging people to riot :

https://twitter.com/MonarchyUK/status/1177549862348480512

(That should be the end of his TV career, but extremists on TV are the norm these days)

not much between his ears really

Infini

https://twitter.com/JimMFelton/status/1177513280190894081?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1177517415770382337&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.redditmedia.com%2Fmediaembed%2Fd9yrf7%3Fresponsive%3Dtrue%26is_nightmode%3Dtrue

Saw this on the /r/brexit on reddit. Karl Turner MP calling out Cummings for his carryon causing him to recieving death threats from knuckledragging idiots. Calls him out as well on his "get brexit done" BS by telling him to actually bring a deal back for them to "get it done". How that shítpeddling waster is still in goverment boggles the mind to be honest the likes of him and the rest should be getting hauled up on incitement to hatred at this point.

bobbyss

Peregrinus wrote:

Well, most of us have a quota of days that we can take off work for whatever purposes we like, and not have to justify that to anyone.

Peregrinus wrote:

Well, most of us have a quota of days that we can take off work for whatever purposes we like, and not have to justify that to anyone.

Peregrinus wrote:

MPs don't have a set quota of days, but also the lines around what is "work" are very blurred for them. If you meet an MP at a function, sporting chance that you're there on a frolic, but for him it's work. MPs need to network, they need to be seen, they need to support party events, community events in the constituency, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Peregrinus wrote:

Not saying that attending a cricket match at Lords necessarily falls into this category, but if somebody is seen doing that on one occasion, there's nothing there to suggest slackness or abuse; as pointed out, any of us could take a day's leave to do such a thing, if minded to. Unless an MP is doing this on a fairly grand scale, I'm not seeing a problem.

Yes agree with moderation in this matter. I am not sure how many employees can take time off for whatever purpose without having to justify that to anyone. Especially public sector workers. I'd be interested to know how many such days nurses, just as example, can take without explaining same to managers etc.

Enzokk

Infini wrote: »

Saw this on the /r/brexit on reddit. Karl Turner MP calling out Cummings for his carryon causing him to recieving death threats from knuckledragging idiots. Calls him out as well on his "get brexit done" BS by telling him to actually bring a deal back for them to "get it done". How that shítpeddling waster is still in goverment boggles the mind to be honest the likes of him and the rest should be getting hauled up on incitement to hatred at this point.

It was more his dismissal of the MP that got me. What right does Cummings have to be there over the MP? I don't think he should know all of the MPs by sight but who did he think would be talking to him like that? He has no time for other politicians except the ones he could use for whatever his plans are. It worries me that no-one knows what he wants other than he has plans to get it.

I think he may just be a chancer who got lucky in the referendum. Would we have known Dominic Cummings if Leave hadn't won?

cml387

If you have the time, do watch on Youtube the BBC series from 1996 called "The Poisoned Chalice" which covers the entire history of the UK's relationship with Europe right back to the coal and steel agreement between France and Germany up to the mid nineties.

It demonstrates how this moment was always coming, how anti-eu feeling runs deep within the race memory of very many in the UK on the left and the right, and has the benefit of interviewing people now dead, Ted Heath, Enoch Powell (a particularly scary piece) and the EU founder members.

Rjd2

ltd440 wrote: »

Although Cummings is obviously a smart guy, he was at his best against a small section of undecided voters in a referendum.
His machiavellian tricks seem to be washing off the backs of more politically astute minds.
I would think he's a busted flush at this stage and Boris is only keeping him in the hope of using his expertise in the election

The problem with analysis of Dom is their is no middle ground. Either a hack or a Rasputin style genius. The guy is clearly intelligent but like most form of intelligence its context specific.

He played a huge role in one of the biggest political earthquakes of the last 50 years, but this position he has is totally different.

He's probably more use when it comes to an election with his current persona and beliefs.

It is interesting to see how it unfolds for him, Brexit looks very hard to deliver and a partnership with the Brexit Party might be needed for the election.

He loathes Farage and everything he represents so I'd imagine he'd quit before he allow Farage near power.

A lot of people with very different political views will celebrate once he exits politics which could be soon enough as it will be bye bye once Boris slips in the polls.

Joe_ Public

Benedict Cumberbatch has a lot to answer for! Seriously, though, that brexit drama on the leave campaign gave a bit of a distorted picture of Cummings, exaggerating numerous things for the usual dramatic effect. One thing i remember is the programme showing Cummings working out the "Take back control" slogan as if it was coming to him in a eureka moment whereas the truth, as i've read, is that he had first come up with it a couple of years before. He's unquestionably bright, but the campaign so far has shown no obvious level of political cunning or adroitness and i'm doubting we're ever going to see it.

Strazdas

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Benedict Cumberbatch has a lot to answer for! Seriously, though, that brexit drama on the leave campaign gave a bit of a distorted picture of Cummings, exaggerating numerous things for the usual dramatic effect. One thing i remember is the programme showing Cummings working out the "Take back control" slogan as if it was coming to him in a eureka moment whereas the truth, as i've read, is that he had first come up with it a couple of years before. He's unquestionably bright, but the campaign so far has shown no obvious level of political cunning or adroitness and i'm doubting we're ever going to see it.

The idea of him being a "genius" is clearly a myth. Perhaps any half decent strategist could have won that referendum. At the moment, he is making mistake after mistake.

maebee

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7511783/Nicola-Sturgeon-hints-Jeremy-Corbyn-unity-PM.html

Nicola Sturgeon hints that she is ready to back Jeremy Corbyn as a 'unity PM'. What are the chances of her convincing Jo Swinson to come on board, for the sake of the country?

An even more interesting week ahead.

joe40

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Benedict Cumberbatch has a lot to answer for! Seriously, though, that brexit drama on the leave campaign gave a bit of a distorted picture of Cummings, exaggerating numerous things for the usual dramatic effect. One thing i remember is the programme showing Cummings working out the "Take back control" slogan as if it was coming to him in a eureka moment whereas the truth, as i've read, is that he had first come up with it a couple of years before. He's unquestionably bright, but the campaign so far has shown no obvious level of political cunning or adroitness and i'm doubting we're ever going to see it.

The prorogation was particularly misguided. It appalled many MPs and probably helped galvanise cross part opposition. The speed and decisiveness of the Benn bill showed this.
Of course this may all simply be for the consumption of his hard brexit base, who seem to think democracy starts and finishes with an advisory referendum dogged with electoral abuse and downright lies.

Joe_ Public

joe40 wrote: »

The prorogation was particularly misguided. It appalled many MPs and probably helped galvanise cross part opposition. The speed and decisiveness of the Benn bill showed this.
Of course this may all simply be for the consumption of his hard brexit base, who seem to think democracy starts and finishes with an advisory referendum dogged with electoral abuse and downright lies.

Yes, i think you're quite on the mark with that. I've always had the feeling that, probably emboldened by winning the referendum, Cummings saw no reason why he couldn't come in and win this too. He'd have nothing but contempt for the likes of Corbyn and Swinson, so it was nothing to gamble on the opposition not being able to put it together to get A. the legislation passed and B. put a gov of national unity in place if needed. He was mistaken on the first assumption and b is still to play for. I think that's what his strategy, such as it is, rests on now.

Strazdas

joe40 wrote: »

The prorogation was particularly misguided. It appalled many MPs and probably helped galvanise cross part opposition. The speed and decisiveness of the Benn bill showed this.
Of course this may all simply be for the consumption of his hard brexit base, who seem to think democracy starts and finishes with an advisory referendum dogged with electoral abuse and downright lies.

Many of them have absolutely zero interest in politics. It's a quite bizarre situation....a disinterested and ignorant section of the public demanding their "will" be implemented.

cml387

Strazdas wrote: »

The idea of him being a "genius" is clearly a myth. Perhaps any half decent strategist could have won that referendum. At the moment, he is making mistake after mistake.

Really?

If they won the supreme court case- fine.
If they lost, go in all guns blazing and blame "The Establishment" for denying the people their democratic right.
Emphasise "betrayal" and "surrender". This is the Spitfire filmed against the white cliffs of Dover type of thing.
By so doing make the EU the enemy. If there is no deal and the UK crash out, any bad consequences can be embraced in the scenario of "Britain stood alone once, it can do it again".

In a way, it's quite clever, almost Leninist.

johnnyskeleton

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

German poll on Brexit:

Q1. Who will be most to blame for a no deal Brexit?

GB 81%, EU 10%, Don't Know 9%

Q2. Should the EU make concessions to avoid a no deal Brexit?

Yes 15%, No 77%, Don't Know 8%

https://m.imgur.com/a/ZrslQj2

I'm surprised the percentage blaming the UK or think the EU should make concessions is that high, to be honest. Maybe, outside the EU you might have Americans, Australians etc thinking that the EU are partially to blame, but in the EU its almost indisputable who is at fault - the EU negotiated with the UK in good faith, reached a deal, and now the dont want the deal.

Leaving aside whether the deal or no deal is better for the UK etc, its the UK who are choosing no deal, if thats what they do

woohoo!!!

Cummings is a legend in his own head. Really he should be the host of the TV show catchphrase, or perhaps a researcher. Grieve wipes the floor with him.

FrancieBrady

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I'm surprised the percentage blaming the UK or think the EU should make concessions is that high, to be honest. Maybe, outside the EU you might have Americans, Australians etc thinking that the EU are partially to blame, but in the EU its almost indisputable who is at fault - the EU negotiated with the UK in good faith, reached a deal, and now the dont want the deal.

Leaving aside whether the deal or no deal is better for the UK etc, its the UK who are choosing no deal, if thats what they do

You would have a percentage who would blame the EU no matter what the evidence said.

lawred2

cml387 wrote: »

Really?

If they won the supreme court case- fine.
If they lost, go in all guns blazing and blame "The Establishment" for denying the people their democratic right.
Emphasise "betrayal" and "surrender". This is the Spitfire filmed against the white cliffs of Dover type of thing.
By so doing make the EU the enemy. If there is no deal and the UK crash out, any bad consequences can be embraced in the scenario of "Britain stood alone once, it can do it again".

In a way, it's quite clever, almost Leninist.

It's not genius though. Appealing to the lowest common denominator has always been easy.

Sure we had one sh!te of our own score near 30% in a popularity vote based on one interview about travellers.

He's not a genius.

toleratethis

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

German poll on Brexit:

Q1. Who will be most to blame for a no deal Brexit?

GB 81%, EU 10%, Don't Know 9%

Q2. Should the EU make concessions to avoid a no deal Brexit?

Yes 15%, No 77%, Don't Know 8%

https://m.imgur.com/a/ZrslQj2

I'm surprised the percentage blaming the UK or think the EU should make concessions is that high, to be honest. Maybe, outside the EU you might have Americans, Australians etc thinking that the EU are partially to blame, but in the EU its almost indisputable who is at fault - the EU negotiated with the UK in good faith, reached a deal, and now the dont want the deal.

Leaving aside whether the deal or no deal is better for the UK etc, its the UK who are choosing no deal, if thats what they do

My first thought is what % are AfD supporters making trouble.

BonnieSituation

Strazdas wrote: »

The idea of him being a "genius" is clearly a myth. Perhaps any half decent strategist could have won that referendum. At the moment, he is making mistake after mistake.

It reminds me of the intelligence and political astuteness that we were supposed to accept that Brian Cowen had.

If it's said enough I guess...

An Ciarraioch

Sending the fool further:

https://twitter.com/adamparsons/status/1177612634910318593

mcmoustache

lawred2 wrote: »

It's not genius though. Appealing to the lowest common denominator has always been easy.

Sure we had one sh!te of our own score near 30% in a popularity vote based on one interview about travellers.

He's not a genius.

Which is why it's always been frowned upon. Any muppet can do it.

Joe_ Public

Seriously, you read about most of these spads and spin doctors and wonder how the f... they keep getting employment. Nick Timothy...spectacularly kyboshed May in the 2017 election, with much able assistance from his partner in crime, Fiona whatsername. Lynton Crosbie...supposedly the guru of the stats and poll making, got it all wrong time and time again. Nikki de Costa...why on earth hasn't she been sacked yet? And after it all goes wrong, a career in the media awaits them, telling us all how their successors should be doing it and where they are going wrong!

A Shropshire Lad

Just wondering about a crash out no deal on October 31st ?
Does the Benn Act not ensure that the UK must ask for an extension if a deal is not agreed ?
Even if Boris refuses to do it, and breaks the law, can the courts not compell some member of the government or even a civil servent to do it ?

So in the above scenario, how can there be no deal crash out on October 31st ?

CrabRevolution

Doesn't the "Cummings is a genius who managed to win the referendum against all odds" idea contradict the notion that a solid majority of the public want and always wanted brexit?

If the public always wanted brexit so badly, there would be no need for any master strategist to get it passed in a referendum.