Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

54and56

gooch2k9 wrote: »

RTE's reporting of DUP comments on "Boris' deal".

Article.





Why waste breath on the proposals? They have brazenly come out and said that it's a unionist veto and they intend to trigger it before the end of the transition period.

No deal is better than that for ROI/EU.

Because difficult as it is you must remain polite and professional and not lower yourself to the standards, or lack thereof, of your counter party.

Barnier is a master.

Simon Coveneny, to the huge annoyance of the DUP / ERG etc isn't far behind him.

Leo is very good but let's the frustration get to him with the odd quip now and again, a bit like the including "Ireland rejoining the UK" in his statement today.

Tusk and Verhofstadt just can't resist calling a spade a spade on a regular basis as they are that bit more removed and cocooned in Brussels.

Philippe Lamberts on the other hand just lets them have it with both barrels, he doesn't suffer fools whatsoever and I have a secret man crush on him

J Mysterio

I still think that Johnson's plan is quite simple... he wants an extension and a GE.

I dont think he wants a No Deal Brexit. But it's hard to be sure of anything really.

Some seem to believe that Johnson will comply with the Benn act under duress and request an extension, but that HMG will have secretly arranged for an EU member state to block the extension with veto and 'free' the UK.

I can't see this being true as it's so ridiculous but, again, anything is possible.

People suspicous of Hungarian diplomats in No.10 today.

https://twitter.com/ResistersLondon/status/1179715490748477440

liamtech

J Mysterio wrote: »

Sorry for tweetfest, but this one is pretty explosive. Good on him.

https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1179788329224679424

Fantastic - fair play to him - cant blame him at all

liamtech

54and56 wrote: »

Along these lines Lucinda Creighton was just interviewed on Sky, I almost muted it as her previous pronouncements getting digs into Leo & co for being undemocratic and backing Ireland into a corner etc etc but in fairness she basically said the new proposals just won't work and actually can't work legally either i.e. turning a blind eye on tariffs for SME's.

I was pleasantly surprised.

Yea i was concerned for a moment that she would simply throw some digs at FG and Leo - especially given her history - but she was very explanatory in her piece - thats what is needed right now - its all fine for us to understand fully why the deal wont work but, in plain english, it needs to be explained clearly to the British electorate

joe40

It is becoming obvious that there deal to be had which will satisfy EU and the DUP.
If Johnson does want a deal the DUP will have to faced down. How this will play with Hardline tories is hard to tell. They absolutely could not care less about the DUP and NI, but they will hate the optics of diluting the union.

jimmycrackcorm

briany wrote: »

Sounds like this Simon Byrne mightn't last much longer as Chief Constable of the PSNI.

I read it as saying, you'll be bringing soldiers back to the border again...

(Edit cracked screens and Swype are a bad mix)

prunudo

I think Simon Bryne is just saying what Stephen Pound warned about. If you want customs checkpoints, get someone else to protect them becuase our guys didn't sign up for that.
https://youtu.be/Erx_hhUj9q0

Hurrache

J Mysterio wrote: »

Sorry for tweetfest, but this one is pretty explosive. Good on him.

https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1179788329224679424

Came here to post that, he's pretty unequivocal about where the blame lays too, pretty tough talking. So that pretty much every organisation, including the police service, coming out against Johnson apart from the DUP. Says it all.

The DUP statements today pretty much admitted the plan is to leave as soon as possible, i.e the Stormont veto.

maebee

J Mysterio wrote: »

https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1179788329224679424

This is massive. It should be played on a loop by every UK media station every single day until it sinks in, really sinks in to all in the UK, how important peace in NI is. It is incredible that the Chief of Police in NI even has to come out and state the obvious, that after 20+ years of peace, he is not prepared to endanger the lives of his officers. Well done Chief Constable.

NotToScale

I find the British media commentary does not really probe the DUP's motives, probably as most of them do not understand the history of the Northern Irish conflict.

It's fairly clear that the DUP's aim is to isolate Northern Ireland from the Republic, leave the EU, burn the bridges and ensure that 'Ulster' (as they define it) is forever separate from the rest of Ireland. From some of their members' point of view, this is an opportunity to undo all those policies that they would consider to have weakened their 'precious union' and most of those are basically the bones of the GFA.

They also seem to fail to probe the fact that the DUP opposed the GFA, only really being dragged along by circumstance and then cooperating (begrudgingly) to operate the Northern Ireland Government and assembly under the power sharing structures, which again they always seemed to be hostile towards e.g. attacking the Irish language and so on, which is completely irrational and comes down to pure hatred and nothing else. How someone can find a language offensive is beyond me, yet none of this is probed. It's all just painted as if the DUP are just a normal political party with normal policies and objectives.

It's also very clear that the EU understands all of the above and is loathed to leave the NI position a hostage to one political party with an extreme point of view and one that could reignite conflict. Many EU countries and the EU itself has a lot of experience working through complex inter community conflicts. Even the City of Brussels itself sits in the middle of a conflict between two identities, wrapped in two languages the Flemish/Dutch speaking Flanders and French speaking Wallonia, and there are strong parallels in the way that one community was dominated by the other, albeit the tables have flipped economically.

However, if you were sitting in Brussels, your life plagued by petty nonsense about language borders and fights over train announcements, languages in schools and signs in post offices, you'd be quite sensitive and aware of the kind of toxic nonsense that pervades the Northern Irish political system.

Professor Moriarty

NotToScale wrote: »

I find the British media commentary does not really probe the DUP's motives, probably as most of them do not understand the history of the Northern Irish conflict.

It's fairly clear that the DUP's aim is to isolate Northern Ireland from the Republic, leave the EU, burn the bridges and ensure that 'Ulster' (as they define it) is forever separate from the rest of Ireland. From some of their members' point of view, this is an opportunity to undo all those policies that they would consider to have weakened their 'precious union' and most of those are basically the bones of the GFA.

They also seem to fail to probe the fact that the DUP opposed the GFA, only really being dragged along by circumstance and then cooperating (begrudgingly) to operate the Northern Ireland Government and assembly under the power sharing structures, which again they always seemed to be hostile towards e.g. attacking the Irish language and so on, which is completely irrational and comes down to pure hatred and nothing else. How someone can find a language offensive is beyond me, yet none of this is probed. It's all just painted as if the DUP are just a normal political party with normal policies and objectives.

It's also very clear that the EU understands all of the above and is loathed to leave the NI position a hostage to one political party with an extreme point of view and one that could reignite conflict.

When being interviewed in the British media, how many times have you heard DUP politicians begin a sentence with "The people of Northern Ireland..."? How many times have they been challenged? Most British people don't understand and don't care. Neither does much of the media.

NotToScale

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

When being interviewed in the British media, how many times have you heard DUP politicians begin a sentence with "The people of Northern Ireland..."? How many times have they been challenged? Most British people don't understand and don't care. Neither does much of the media.

A lot of that is down to ignorance of the situation in Northern Ireland. It's inexcusable for professional journalists reporting this story to be so ignorant about a major factor in the Brexit debate, but most of them are.

There are some exceptions, for example Channel 4 News and you get the odd bit of enlightenment on Sky News (particularly post Murdock sell off to Comcast) and the Guardian is aware, but it should be something that's coming up all the time, yet it isn't.

There's little or no coverage of the machinations of Northern Irish politics in Britain. Northern Ireland's effectively a parallel political world that they know nothing about. It votes for different parties and has an ethnic identity conflict at its core. I remember when the DUP came into the mix in Westminster in the confidence and supply arrangements, a lot of people were horrified at their policies around LGBT rights, abortion etc etc. However, for most that I spoke to it was the first time that they've ever encountered them and also a lot of people had this notion that Sinn Fein would be the socially conservative party, as they're assumed to be Catholic and that the DUP therefore must be more like mainstream Britain, which they're not. They're more like something from the US Bible Belt.

I really do think a very large chunk of the media in England is doing the voters and country a massive disservice by failing to probe anything and by being so politicised and willing to just take a single point of view or, in the case of most of the tabloids, just print pure propaganda for whatever side of any particular political debate they chose to back at any given moment.

Strazdas

NotToScale wrote: »

I find the British media commentary does not really probe the DUP's motives, probably as most of them do not understand the history of the Northern Irish conflict.

It's fairly clear that the DUP's aim is to isolate Northern Ireland from the Republic, leave the EU, burn the bridges and ensure that 'Ulster' (as they define it) is forever separate from the rest of Ireland. From some of their members' point of view, this is an opportunity to undo all those policies that they would consider to have weakened their 'precious union' and most of those are basically the bones of the GFA.

They also seem to fail to probe the fact that the DUP opposed the GFA, only really being dragged along by circumstance and then cooperating (begrudgingly) to operate the Northern Ireland Government and assembly under the power sharing structures, which again they always seemed to be hostile towards e.g. attacking the Irish language and so on, which is completely irrational and comes down to pure hatred and nothing else. How someone can find a language offensive is beyond me, yet none of this is probed. It's all just painted as if the DUP are just a normal political party with normal policies and objectives.

It's also very clear that the EU understands all of the above and is loathed to leave the NI position a hostage to one political party with an extreme point of view and one that could reignite conflict. Many EU countries and the EU itself has a lot of experience working through complex inter community conflicts. Even the City of Brussels itself sits in the middle of a conflict between two identities, wrapped in two languages the Flemish/Dutch speaking Flanders and French speaking Wallonia, and there are strong parallels in the way that one community was dominated by the other, albeit the tables have flipped economically.

However, if you were sitting in Brussels, your life plagued by petty nonsense about language borders and fights over train announcements, languages in schools and signs in post offices, you'd be quite sensitive and aware of the kind of toxic nonsense that pervades the Northern Irish political system.

If it's any consolation though, the backlash against the DUP is huge. They're taking a hammering from all quarters on social media for the last few days with virtually nobody speaking up for them. Even the English Brexiteers don't seem to like them or have any time for them.

BobbyBobberson

If there is ever a Chilcot like enquiry I really hope the media are held to account. Watching Peston and Laura K fawn over Johnson this week has been incredible. Too much of media and politics intertwine in the UK.

briany

NotToScale wrote: »

I find the British media commentary does not really probe the DUP's motives, probably as most of them do not understand the history of the Northern Irish conflict.

It's fairly clear that the DUP's aim is to isolate Northern Ireland from the Republic, leave the EU, burn the bridges and ensure that 'Ulster' (as they define it) is forever separate from the rest of Ireland. From some of their members' point of view, this is an opportunity to undo all those policies that they would consider to have weakened their 'precious union' and most of those are basically the bones of the GFA.

They also seem to fail to probe the fact that the DUP opposed the GFA, only really being dragged along by circumstance and then cooperating (begrudgingly) to operate the Northern Ireland Government and assembly under the power sharing structures, which again they always seemed to be hostile towards e.g. attacking the Irish language and so on, which is completely irrational and comes down to pure hatred and nothing else. How someone can find a language offensive is beyond me, yet none of this is probed. It's all just painted as if the DUP are just a normal political party with normal policies and objectives.

It's also very clear that the EU understands all of the above and is loathed to leave the NI position a hostage to one political party with an extreme point of view and one that could reignite conflict.

It's clear also that the DUP would probably be happy enough if Stormont, in its current setup, never sat again. And they'd squarely blame Sinn Fein for that.

A no-deal Brexit would be the gift that keeps on giving for the DUP. It's really no wonder they'd opt for it. Hard border in Ireland? Fantastic. Not having to even pretend to cooperate with Sinn Fein ever again? Brilliant. Polarising the communities? Oh, somebody pinch me.

Professor Moriarty

NotToScale wrote: »

A lot of that is down to ignorance of the situation in Northern Ireland. It's inexcusable for professional journalists reporting this story to be so ignorant about a major factor in the Brexit debate, but most of them are.

There are some exceptions, for example Channel 4 News and you get the odd bit of enlightenment on Sky News (particularly post Murdock sell off to Comcast) and the Guardian is aware, but it should be something that's coming up all the time, yet it isn't.

There's little or no coverage of the machinations of Northern Irish politics in Britain. Northern Ireland's effectively a parallel political world that they know nothing about. It votes for different parties and has an ethnic identity conflict at its core. I remember when the DUP came into the mix in Westminster in the confidence and supply arrangements, a lot of people were horrified at their policies around LGBT rights, abortion etc etc. However, for most that I spoke to it was the first time that they've ever encountered them and also a lot of people had this notion that Sinn Fein would be the socially conservative party, as they're assumed to be Catholic and that the DUP therefore must be more like mainstream Britain, which they're not. They're more like something from the US Bible Belt.

What is even more ironic is that the vast majority of English MPs and people would happily give NI away. NI is being used for Tory party political reasons, nothing more. In this instance, they insert a DUP veto to ensure that the EU will reject Johnson's proposals. The DUP is ideologically wedded to Britain. That's a one-way street.

NotToScale

Strazdas wrote: »

If it's any consolation though, the backlash against the DUP is huge. They're taking a hammering from all quarters on social media for the last few days with virtually nobody speaking up for them. Even the English Brexiteers don't seem to like them or have any time for them.

It's all a bit late in the day for that tbh.
Anyone who knew anything about Northern Ireland, including quite a few prominent British politicians and commentators, were shouting from the roof tops that going into what effectively amounted to a coalition with the DUP, one side of a highly conflicted Northern Ireland political mess, was absolutely insane, yet Theresa May just went ahead and did it anyway and then kept going on about the Conservative and Unionist Party and her "precious union", which was clearly just to placate her new allies, but look where it's driven us!

EVERY bit of this was predicted, written about by commentators who included Irish, British and international political academics, those who were involved in the peace process (including prominent Tories who raised concerns), people in Northern Ireland, people in the Republic of Ireland and even international observers.

Did they listen? No! Of course not. They just want to deliver this undeliverable project that will destroy their economy and cause chaos. What the rational behind this is, nobody seems to know other than the UK seems to have fully absorbed the old Northern Ireland approach to politics and has gone head first into pure tribalism and is now incapable of stepping back from it.

Kermit.de.frog

briany wrote: »

It's clear also that the DUP would probably be happy enough if Stormont, in its current setup, never sat again. And they'd squarely blame Sinn Fein for that.

A no-deal Brexit would be the gift that keeps on giving for the DUP. It's really no wonder they'd opt for it. Hard border in Ireland? Fantastic. Not having to even pretend to cooperate with Sinn Fein ever again? Brilliant. Polarising the communities? Oh, somebody pinch me.

https://twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1179700800379133952

Well put!

The mind boggles why they didn't think long and hard before backing Brexit.

NotToScale

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1179700800379133952

Well put!

The mind boggles why they didn't think long and hard before backing Brexit.

The problem is the did think long and hard before backing Brexit and they concluded that it was great and was something that was in line with their political objectives. Not only did they back it, but they backed it with huge gusto and enthusiasm and I would assume that is because they felt it would create fortress Ulster and cut them off from the rest of the island in perpetuity.

They may well have bitten off more than they can chew and the whole thing has backfired and left them in a total mess, but that is the kind of thinking that seems to have gone into this.

GM228

NotToScale wrote: »

The problem is the did think long and hard before backing Brexit and they concluded that it was great and was something that was in line with their political objectives. Not only did they back it, but they backed it with huge gusto and enthusiasm and I would assume that is because they felt it would create fortress Ulster and cut them off from the rest of the island in perpetuity.

They probably also realised early on there was a potential threat to the GFA, something they opposed from day 1.

maebee

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

What is even more ironic is that the vast majority of English MPs and people would happily give NI away. NI is being used for Tory party political reasons, nothing more. In this instance, they insert a DUP veto to ensure that the EU will reject Johnson's proposals. The DUP is ideologically wedded to Britain. That's a one-way street.

Indeed. To use the Princess Di analogy, Arlene - there's only one of you in this marriage.

Headshot

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1179700800379133952

Well put!

The mind boggles why they didn't think long and hard before backing Brexit.

They only had to think for 5 mins before backing Brexit. From their eyes they get everything they want. Threaten the GFA, huge step backwards for Ireland unification and much much closer ties to London.

They don't give a **** about the majority of the NI population

A Shropshire Lad

When are we going to get another round of votes in parliament, they were good craic.

Strazdas

NotToScale wrote: »

The problem is the did think long and hard before backing Brexit and they concluded that it was great and was something that was in line with their political objectives. Not only did they back it, but they backed it with huge gusto and enthusiasm and I would assume that is because they felt it would create fortress Ulster and cut them off from the rest of the island in perpetuity.

They may well have bitten off more than they can chew and the whole thing has backfired and left them in a total mess, but that is the kind of thinking that seems to have gone into this.

Supporting Leave in 2016 was a disastrous decision, especially given that their sister party the Conservatives were campaigning on a Remain ticket.

Their lack of thought on the whole question of Europe and Brexit is mind boggling. They've spent the last couple of years fighting a rearguard action and they now know they are in big trouble.

J Mysterio

briany wrote: »

It's clear also that the DUP would probably be happy enough if Stormont, in its current setup, never sat again. And they'd squarely blame Sinn Fein for that.

A no-deal Brexit would be the gift that keeps on giving for the DUP. It's really no wonder they'd opt for it. Hard border in Ireland? Fantastic. Not having to even pretend to cooperate with Sinn Fein ever again? Brilliant. Polarising the communities? Oh, somebody pinch me.

They want to avoid a No Deal Brexit as it leads to a United Ireland.

What they do want is a 'deal' which hardens the border, ala Johnson's disastrous 'plan'. This is why they are suddenly so loud again - they think they are on to a winner with this.

GM228

J Mysterio wrote: »

they think they are on to a winner with this.

And reality will soon hit hard.

Kermit.de.frog

Brace yourselves.

I'd bet on Cummings unleashing the tory media attack dogs on the Irish position in the coming days - i'd say Varadkar is going to be getting some special treatment.

Professor Genius

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Brace yourselves.

I'd bet on Cummings unleashing the tory media attack dogs on the Irish position in the coming days - i'd say Varadkar is going to be getting some special treatment.

So what ? No one outside of the U.K. seriously digests that rubbish.

A Shropshire Lad

So.... Johnsons half baked plan with the DUP and some members of the ERG is being described as a 'deal'.
Interesting use of the word....

GM228

A good point I recently read made by Matthew D'Anconda:-

"When did you last hear anyone make a serious effort to defend Brexit as a desirable outcome, in and of itself, on its merits"

I think those who support it really are stuck within the Brexit logic closed loop.