Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

mrbrianj

Roger_007 wrote: »

That was an incredibly stupid statement for Leo to make. It just hands ammunition to the hard Brexiteers.
Leo should just leave the talking to Coveney.

But there is some merit in what he said, and its something that people in England could do well to take on board.

They have voted to leave the EU - but at the same time a sizeable number want to stay - but and crucially, in a Union of countries like the UK - Englands desire is not the same as Scotlands or Northern Ireland's - but what England wants England gets.

It is a clear contrast with the approach of the EU - I'm sure some large countries are ready to agree a deal, but wont because one smaller country does not desire that deal.

Strazdas

mrbrianj wrote: »

But there is some merit in what he said, and its something that people in England could do well to take on board.

They have voted to leave the EU - but at the same time a sizeable number want to stay - but and crucially, in a Union of countries like the UK - Englands desire is not the same as Scotlands or Northern Ireland's - but what England wants England gets.

It is a clear contrast with the approach of the EU - I'm sure some large countries are ready to agree a deal, but wont because one smaller country does not desire that deal.

As I said just above, the Leavers / Brexiteers / Europhobes are a minority in the UK and have effectively hijacked the entire political process with the referendum result of three years ago.

Varadkar is daring to point out that the majority are being silenced and disenfranchised by this right wing cabal. They're not used to hearing this publicly and are reacting with rage.

Zubeneschamali

Roger_007 wrote: »

That was an incredibly stupid statement for Leo to make.

On the contrary, there is no reason to humour these idiots any longer, it has gone beyond being polite: they are seriously proposing reimposing a hard border after all their assurances that they would never, ever do so.

And Leo's statement has the singular virtue of being true. Leave has not been ahead of remain in the polls in years.

You will notice that the UK papers print quotes from Varadkar, and then quotes from people saying it is incendiary and disgraceful and so forth.

They do not say it is untrue, because it is, in fact, true.

swampgas

Roger_007 wrote: »

That was an incredibly stupid statement for Leo to make. It just hands ammunition to the hard Brexiteers.
Leo should just leave the talking to Coveney.

The angrier they get the more he is hitting a nerve, and the more they wish he would just shut up and stop reminding people of inconvenient facts.

Let them rage away, we don't need to be afraid of their nasty little tantrums.

Seriously, all this tip-toeing round them makes me sick.

Zubeneschamali

VinLieger wrote: »

They are going to complain about something and target someone no matter what happens, its far better to know what it will be and who it will be against.

Apart from everything else, he got "The British people want to Remain" onto every newspaper front page. Good job.

swampgas

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Apart from everything else, he got "The British people want to Remain" onto every newspaper front page. Good job.

If anything he's playing Cummings at his own game - say something that will trigger a reaction, but gets your message out. Fight fire with fire ...

VinLieger

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Apart from everything else, he got "The British people want to Remain" onto every newspaper front page. Good job.

Taking a leaf out of Johnsons and Cummings playbook with the whole "i make buses" thing

Professor Moriarty

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Apart from everything else, he got "The British people want to Remain" onto every newspaper front page. Good job.

He'a also right. The latest poll shows that Remain has a 10% lead over Leave. And that Leave can be further split into Hard and Soft Leavers.

GM228

As we all expected:-

https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1180059524364984323?s=19

GM228

An interesting statistic on Google, that "no deal" was not Googled until after the referendum:-

https://twitter.com/JohnDalton6011/status/1137346595744337920?s=19

Is it a surprise?

prawnsambo

GM228 wrote: »

An interesting statistic on Google, that no one Googled "no deal" until after the referendum:-

https://twitter.com/JohnDalton6011/status/1137346595744337920?s=19

Is it a surprise?

It was 2017 iirc. So around the time May started her "no deal is better than a bad deal" schtick. Reminds me of the uptick in questions like "what is the EU" after the referendum result.

GM228

GM228 wrote: »

Just a reminder that the substantive proceedings in the Outer House start this morning:-

The petition for today's hearing:-

https://www.dropbox.com/s/h2wjktj5yb1zods/Petition%20as%20lodged%20-%20order%20for%20specific%20performance%20by%20PM.PDF?dl=0

And the petition for Tuesday's hearing in the Inner House (which will also no doubt deal with an appeal on today's action - the judgement for which will be on Monday):-

https://www.dropbox.com/s/c2nr48i6feg0v0t/Final%20adjusted%20NO%20Petition.pdf?dl=0

Inner House has confirmed it will sit all day on Tuesday to hear the legal competency and merits of the Nobile Officium petition, will also hear any appeal of the Outer House case.

I'm surprised the hearing does not seem to have attracted any mainstream media attention.

john9876

GM228 wrote: »

An interesting statistic on Google, that "no deal" was not Googled until after the referendum:-

https://twitter.com/JohnDalton6011/status/1137346595744337920?s=19

Is it a surprise?

It's a surprise to me, maybe even a shock.
I thought the figures would be low but that is incredible.

john9876

john9876 wrote: »

It's a surprise to me, maybe even a shock.
I thought the figures would be low but that is incredible.

The terminology changed over time 'hard Brexit' to 'no deal brexit'

Hard brexit wasn't searched in the UK until after the referendum either though.

riddles

The only real solution is for the island of Ireland to be treated as one regulatory body for the deal to go through. Given that Brexit supporters are so hung up on the notion of democracy and Brexit was rejected by around a 12% majority in the North, it makes this proposal the only fair one.

Personally I would not be in support of a United Ireland. However, a return of a border is completely unacceptable. Brexit was not a referendum on the GFA in anyway shape or form.

If there is a hard Brexit and a return to the border. That puts a push for a united Ireland front and centre for the majority of the citizens on the island of Ireland who would support it. Seen as Brexit is a template for democracy at any cost.

GM228

Apparently this is the defence raised by the UK Government in Scotland today:-

https://twitter.com/jamesdoleman/status/1180037480046874625?s=19

It's unfortunate that they have failed/refuse to publish their arguments for this as it would most likely make for some interesting reading.

https://twitter.com/severincarrell/status/1180063165016629248?s=19

Update: Lord Pentland has interrupted Mr. O'Neill stating that no more argument is needed in the argument of competency of the court! This is very positive as it infers the court agrees it has competency on the issue.

Enzokk

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

This is the same issue across the whole western world.

Less and less protest on important issues because the newer generations have their eyeballs screwed to their smartphones all the time.

That is unfair. When the youth come out to protest they are lambasted as the laziest and most entitled generation who only has their heads in their smartphones. This generation has to deal with a Global financial crash and climate emergency that they had no hand in. Their parents has decided it is proper to elect people like Trump and Johnson to be leaders who will shape their worlds.

And they get the blame for not ripping up their streets in protest? We have to see what the voter turnout is during the next election but when you are young I don't think you need to worry yourself about the world around you, at least I didn't. But they next generation has a chance in the next election to change the narrative if they get out to vote. That is their protest and they need to use it.

fash

Patser wrote: »

If Johnson's plan did come in (I know, I know), could the veto power of the Northen Assembly prove to be a poison chalice for the DUP - Northern farmers and businesses would already be getting shafted in the plan as is, so knowing that whoever is in the assembly has the power to make it worse, could force them the shift dramatically from voting for the DUP if they looked to be triggering their veto.

To really poison it, if they ever exercise it, every 4 years thereafter, they have to have a "United Ireland Y or N" referendum.

liamtech

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

He'a also right. The latest poll shows that Remain has a 10% lead over Leave. And that Leave can be further split into Hard and Soft Leavers.

I agree with you but like i said previously - The Polls still show a solid Tory/Brexit party % in the Election Polls, which is FPTP

Remain may be a Majority overall, but Brexit will tactically win in a general election - unless

• Corbyn and Swinson come to some accomodation, before the election preferably
• The SNP take every seat north of Hadrians wall
• The Unionist Community realize the the DUP would happily watch NI Starve, if it preserved the precious union - and voted accordingly (UUP, PUP Alliance Non aggression Pact would also help in this matter)

How likely are any of these things?

the only alternative would be a caretaker to come in and prior to a general election, put in place a law for a second referendum - This could theoretically damage the Tories/Brexit because if they ran on a 'WE WILL CANCEL THIS', they leave themselves open to being attacked as undemocratic -

Which scenario is more likely??

Honestly interested in peoples opinion

fash

mrbrianj wrote: »

Roger_007 wrote: »

That was an incredibly stupid statement for Leo to make. It just hands ammunition to the hard Brexiteers.
Leo should just leave the talking to Coveney.

But there is some merit in what he said, and its something that people in England could do well to take on board.

They have voted to leave the EU - but at the same time a sizeable number want to stay - but and crucially, in a Union of countries like the UK - Englands desire is not the same as Scotlands or Northern Ireland's - but what England wants England gets.

It is a clear contrast with the approach of the EU - I'm sure some large countries are ready to agree a deal, but wont because one smaller country does not desire that deal.

someone needs to speak to and for the silent majority in the UK. Their own media, politicians and the shrill Brexiters often won't.

Rjd2

Hurrache wrote: »

This is mental. So at a celebration of the anniversary of German unity Gove does this.
https://twitter.com/PeterRNeumann/status/1179824942021566468?s=19

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/remarks-at-the-german-embassy-by-the-chancellor-of-the-duchy-of-lancaster-3-october-2019


Neumann is misleading here looking for retweets.

The speech is there and its pretty bland, he talks about how the UK needs to come together like Germany did after reunification.

Gove is poor, but loath this type of **** from Neumann.

He is banking on people not bothering to checking this out instead talking him at his word.

Rjd2

Thargor wrote: »

You can feel the crazy starting to really roll in now like Storm Lorenzo:

https://twitter.com/RichardBurgon/status/1179712281627766784

(Thats what Jo Coxs' murderer was shouting when he killed her if you didnt know)

Would you have a recording of this?

The Mirror editor a leftie has poured cold water over this this morning.

Tory MP denying it, would love to hear and see who is in the right/wrong.

20silkcut

swampgas wrote: »

The angrier they get the more he is hitting a nerve, and the more they wish he would just shut up and stop reminding people of inconvenient facts.

Let them rage away, we don't need to be afraid of their nasty little tantrums.

Seriously, all this tip-toeing round them makes me sick.

It should be high profile British politicians like Nicola sturgeon or jo Swinson or Jeremy Corbyn who are pointing out this fact. They should be singing it from the rooftops. Why aren’t they ??
It’s not the job of Leo varadkar to highlight this.
We should not demonstrate any interest or concern with the **** show that is internal British politics. ( even if we are both interested and concerned by it) Our concern is preventing a hard border on this island.

funkey_monkey

Popeleo wrote: »

Rory Stewart has resigned from the Conservative party and isn't standing in the next election (not in his present constituency anyway).

A shame as he might have been a good future Con leader to bring back stability after the present sh*tshow calms down. But maybe he thinks it has now gone too far for that to be possible:


Rory Stewart
@RoryStewartUK
It’s been a great privilege to serve Penrith and The Border for the last ten years, so it is with sadness that I am announcing that I will be standing down at the next election, and that I have also resigned from the Conservative Party.

He is going to stand for Mayor of London.

Professor Moriarty

liamtech wrote: »

I agree with you but like i said previously - The Polls still show a solid Tory/Brexit party % in the Election Polls, which is FPTP

Remain may be a Majority overall, but Brexit will tactically win in a general election - unless

• Corbyn and Swinson come to some accomodation, before the election preferably
• The SNP take every seat north of Hadrians wall
• The Unionist Community realize the the DUP would happily watch NI Starve, if it preserved the precious union - and voted accordingly (UUP, PUP Alliance Non aggression Pact would also help in this matter)

How likely are any of these things?

the only alternative would be a caretaker to come in and prior to a general election, put in place a law for a second referendum - This could theoretically damage the Tories/Brexit because if they ran on a 'WE WILL CANCEL THIS', they leave themselves open to being attacked as undemocratic -

Which scenario is more likely??

Honestly interested in peoples opinion

The key to the next GE is Brexit and The Brexit Party. People are firmly entrenched and now see Brexit as a matter of honour, especially Leave voters. It's a point of principle that cannot be ceded no matter what the realities. So, Leave voters will vote for parties that will deliver Brexit and other issues will be relatively unimportant. The Brexit Party is at about 12% currently. They are a single issue party whose sole raison d'etre is to leave the EU immediately - so staunch Leavers will flock to them.

If Johnson can steal their clothes, then he has a very good chance of a large overall majority. Ditto if he can persuade them to be tactical when putting up candidates or if he strikes a coalition deal with them. Other than that, he's in serious trouble if they field candidates in all constituencies.

LeinsterDub

https://twitter.com/bbclornag/status/1180079013869608960


So the government will ask for an extension? Perhaps Johnson doesn't do it himself , I can't see any other wriggle room to get around the Benn Act. Barring perhaps the ask for an extension , get one and then just unilaterally leave on the 31st . Is this possible / legal?

BonnieSituation

Hurrache wrote: »

I think the biggest issue with this, that seems to have gone by unnoticed, is that there was a statement from the UK government at the time of the GFA saying they won't be claiming NI as theirs from then on (despite the republic acknowledging NI is part of the UK) or something like that. I must try dig it out.

edit: I think this is what I'm thinking of, from Wikipedia



The UK riding roughshod over the GFA as if it doesn't even exist.

"...no selfish or strategic interest in Northern Ireland..."

You're thinking of the Downing Street Declaration from Major which kicked off the final run of talks towards the GFA.

VinLieger

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://twitter.com/bbclornag/status/1180079013869608960


So the government will ask for an extension? Perhaps Johnson doesn't do it himself , I can't see any other wriggle room to get around the Benn Act. Barring perhaps the ask for an extension , get one and then just unilaterally leave on the 31st . Is this possible / legal?

LOL they are beginning to sound like a petulent teenager who doesn't want to take the bins out.


Are they really saying they will send the later but at the same time trying to argue they shouldn't have to cus Johnson doesn't live in Scotland.....?

Professor Moriarty

Enzokk wrote: »

That is unfair. When the youth come out to protest they are lambasted as the laziest and most entitled generation who only has their heads in their smartphones. This generation has to deal with a Global financial crash and climate emergency that they had no hand in. Their parents has decided it is proper to elect people like Trump and Johnson to be leaders who will shape their worlds.

And they get the blame for not ripping up their streets in protest? We have to see what the voter turnout is during the next election but when you are young I don't think you need to worry yourself about the world around you, at least I didn't. But they next generation has a chance in the next election to change the narrative if they get out to vote. That is their protest and they need to use it.

Since June 2016, due to demographics, the lead for Remain over Leave increases by 1350 voters every day.

BonnieSituation

Roger_007 wrote: »

That was an incredibly stupid statement for Leo to make. It just hands ammunition to the hard Brexiteers.
Leo should just leave the talking to Coveney.

There was nothing wrong with the statement.

Softly softly time is over.