Days off

o1s1n

If you look back on the situation in another ten years, do you think you'll:

A: Still be working for the same company, much higher up and glad you made the decision to miss such a huge event as it contributed to your career.

Or

B: working somewhere else, looking back and being amazed the thought even entered your mind to miss your sisters wedding.

I actually know someone who cut their OWN wedding plans short (got rid of their honeymoon completely) because work decided that they couldn't have the time off over the Christmas period. They flew back to work the day after their wedding.

The guy now works somewhere completely different and cannot believe he did that. It's amazing the difference a bit of time and perspective puts on things.

the boss of me

SusieBlue wrote: »

the boss of me wrote: »

Just pop down to your doctor and get a cert... There's plenty of illness's that would allow you attend a wedding but render you incapable of working.
You probably won't get paid so take that into account.

Sick Certs explain absences but don't excuse them. She could still be heavily disciplined or even fired with a sick cert.

Maybe in theory from some management manual.
Not in the real world. Any sanction could be appealed to the EAT quicker than you could say unfair dismissal.

False Prophet

rsl1976 wrote: »

Is it not also unfair that the manager gets to take those days every year and no one else can be off?

I would definitely be going to HR

Unfair yes.
Unlawful no.

the boss of me

the boss of me wrote: »

Maybe in theory from some management manual.
Not in the real world. Any sanction could be appealed to the EAT quicker than you could say unfair dismissal.

Arggh, I'm edging back towards the dark side.

No, the company could sanction the employee if they went about it the correct way. A sick cert simply means that the employer cannot allow the employee to attend work.

But, as we know some sick certs aren't worth the paper they are printed on (GPs like money too).

The company could instigate an investigation (through proper procedures) and if the employee was found to have gone abroad and had no possibility of getting back in time for work the sick cert would be found to be insufficient.

Now, I don't think that would happen, but it could.

False Prophet

Batgurl wrote: »

I’ve worked in retail, hospitality, HR and lots of other careers in between. With all due respect to those saying “it’s not how it works”, that may be your experience but mine is that if you are honest and firm in any job, then you won’t get shat on.

The company doesn’t have a blanket “no leave” policy because the manager is off. So the company are giving that staff member preferential treatment over all other staff. It’s a discrimination case waiting to happen.

With due respect have you proper HR qualifications?
Because companies can certainly have a policy when leave can be taken and management can get preferential treatment/perks as it's not discriminatory.

OP needs to speak with HR and look for help. Ask HR what they would do in her shoes and show evidence of wedding etc. Any decent Hr manager will find a solution as Op is not asking for much.
If HR agree with manager then OP will then need to decide what to do next.
But Imo she isnt being discriminated against.

kala85

SusieBlue wrote: »

Sick Certs explain absences but don't excuse them. She could still be heavily disciplined or even fired with a sick cert.

How? Can you elaborate on this please?

locum-motion

paulpd wrote: »

"which states when the manger is on annual leave member of staff can request more than one day off at a time"...

But the policy doesn't appear to say "the manager gets the Christmas-to-New-Year week every year without exception, and no one else can".

It's a bit unfair of the manager to insist that he and only he can have the most attractive week of the year for his holidays each and every year, and it's quite possible that HR isn't aware that that's what he's doing.

The previous suggestion of an e-mail to HR is probably the way to go.

Michelleb355

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There is a trade off.
The OP can ask, the company can say no.
The OP can say they won't be working, the company can? Discipline them, fire them, say nothing, grumble but do nothing.
There are lots of options.

How big is this company OP?
Is it a busy period?

Are there other branches and is it the same there?

Very small shop. I think the issue is that if others got sick then they would be afraid of being left short staff. There are other branches but none in the same county as me so staff transfer not an option

SusieBlue

kala85 wrote: »

How? Can you elaborate on this please?

A cert explains why you didn’t come to work but it doesn’t excuse it.
You can still be disciplined for not showing up to work, even if you have a cert.

Its a common myth that you can just get a sick cert if your employer denies you annual leave and that they can’t touch you cause you have a doctors note - that’s absolutely not the case.
They don’t have to accept it and you can still be disciplined.

3DataModem

the boss of me wrote: »

Maybe in theory from some management manual.
Not in the real world. Any sanction could be appealed to the EAT quicker than you could say unfair dismissal.

The EAT hasn’t existed for two years.

OP: your employer is within their rights, but is being unreasonable. Up to you what you do about that.

3DataModem

kala85 wrote: »

How? Can you elaborate on this please?

You can be sacked for not showing up, even if sick, even if certified. However most companies don’t do this of course.

Optimalprimerib

Would you not be entitled to two days off anyway in your rostered week, so that you take one holiday and then your two days.

If it was me I wouldn't be asking, I'd be telling. Your giving them enough notice and go to hr about it.

During the peak time the manager should also not be allowed take holidays like that.

facehugger99

Write to HR and tell them due to personal circumstances you won' be in a position to work those days

Don't go into details and don't word it as a request.

Then enjoy your sister's wedding.

Life happens and they will be able to deal with it.

You are not being unreasonable - they are - an employment tribunal will very likely see it this way too if it came to it.

threetrees

I think you get further being open, honest and polite. Raise it with HR, explain you've always worked over Christmas for 12 years, however this year will be an exception as you've a family wedding in the UK. You realise this is not ideal but it really is an exceptional circumstance. I don't think I'd be petty and mention the managers (unreasonable length of) time off. Ask HR if you could take the days unpaid? (Although I think it's cover and roster that's the issue, not pay).

I feel for you, that is a horrible situation to be in and answering to such a selfish manager would irk me.

Hi OP

I realize you might work in a rural area or an area where there aren’t many other jobs, or maybe you can’t commute further for work. But unless I was absolutely mad about my job I’d be looking at changing jobs/career if I had to deal with this level of inflexibility after 12 years of loyalty in a job !

Even 12 years in the same job is rare these days, most people move around and switch jobs. There is more choice and opportunity now. You could train and be qualified to look outside of retail where you no longer have those restrictions put on you. Retail is great experience but I’m not sure I’d want it for life . I’d hate to be dictated to in that way. We all have lives . As another poster said you’ll look back on this sometime and wonder why you put up with it is long .

Life is also for living , for spending the time with family at the most important time of their lives , it’s not JUST about work . I personally wouldn’t be able to deal with a manager who took the entire Christmas off every year but insisted nobody else got any time off especially with the loyalty of 12 years working over Christmas!

I hope you get sorted, don’t miss the wedding , you will need those 3 days if it’s in London . Maybe this is the push you need to consider a change .

Wanderer78

Sickie, fcuk'em, enjoy the wedding

STB.

Ah a true leadership manager.


Plenty of them out there.


I'm sure he can rearrange the deck chairs if he could be arsed with 3 months notice!

splinter65

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Sickie, fcuk'em, enjoy the wedding

What if she gets sacked when she comes back? That’s not much good to her in the month of January?

Wanderer78

splinter65 wrote:

What if she gets sacked when she comes back? That’s not much good to her in the month of January?

Sacked, for missing a day! A warning and a bollocking more like.

SusieBlue

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Sacked, for missing a day! A warning and a bollocking more like.

Where I work, not showing up to work after being denied annual leave for the same dates would be considered gross misconduct and the employee would very likely be fired.
Its not something that would be tolerated. You can't just call in sick when your leave doesn't get approved and expect to get away with it.

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Sacked, for missing a day! A warning and a bollocking more like.

Pigs may yet fly, I agree with Wanderer78 :pac:

the_pen_turner

would it be worth pointing out that you legally have to take so many days off a year and that the employer has to make sure you take them.

Salary Negotiator

It’d be a real shame if the OP missed her flight home from the wedding and as a result missed a days work.

Punctures always seem to happen at the worst possible time.

facehugger99

SusieBlue wrote: »

Where I work, not showing up to work after being denied annual leave for the same dates would be considered gross misconduct and the employee would very likely be fired.
.

Thus opening up the employers to a claim under the unfair dismissals act.

Not sure what century your employer thinks they're working in but there are certain rights afforded to employees these days that prevent that kind of bolloxology from taking place.

SusieBlue wrote: »

You can't just call in sick when your leave doesn't get approved and expect to get away with it.

Of course you can - people get sick all the time, including days on which they've been denied leave.

Salary Negotiator

Salary Negotiator wrote: »

It’d be a real shame if the OP missed her flight home from the wedding and as a result missed a days work.

Punctures always seem to happen at the worst possible time.

"That's terrible - have you got the plane ticket, lets see if we can get a refund for you."

SusieBlue

facehugger99 wrote: »

Thus opening up the employers to a claim under the unfair dismissals act.

Not sure what century your employer thinks they're working in but there are certain rights afforded to employees these days that prevent that kind of bolloxology from taking place.

How would it be an unfair dismissal?
OP has contracted hours, OP applies for annual leave during a business critical period, Employer denies the leave as they are legally entitled to, OP doesn't show up to work.
How would it be unfair if OP was dismissed, pray tell?

I'm on OP's side here, I think its very unreasonable that she isn't being accommodated. But there is dangerous advice being given on this thread with serious consequences for her if she takes it.

Batgurl

[Deleted User] wrote: »

"That's terrible - have you got the plane ticket, lets see if we can get a refund for you."

“No you’re grand thanks. My refund is none of your business but cheers for the concern.”

splinter65

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Sacked, for missing a day! A warning and a bollocking more like.

I don’t want to be either sacked warned or bollocked. Do you think that there’s some kind of WRC that comes round to the workplace and stops an employer from sacking an employee? Because there’s not.

splinter65

facehugger99 wrote: »

Thus opening up the employers to a claim under the unfair dismissals act.

Not sure what century your employer thinks they're working in but there are certain rights afforded to employees these days that prevent that kind of bolloxology from taking place.



Of course you can - people get sick all the time, including days on which they've been denied leave.

Yes but in the meantime you’ve been sacked. Lost your wages. After 12 years. Sign on for JSB (€203) Have to submit an unfair dismissals complaint with WRC wait for an acknowledgement of same wait for a hearing date (3 months minimum) get together all the evidence.... explain the sudden cessation of employment on your CV, last employer will be rung for a reference... get it?

Salary Negotiator

[Deleted User] wrote: »

"That's terrible - have you got the plane ticket, lets see if we can get a refund for you."

How would a retail manager/HR get the OP a refund? All she has to say is she’ll look after it herself.

I wasn’t really being serious but back in my retail days it’s what I’d have done and the just brazened it out.

The company has to follow its own disciplinary proceedings and HR usually look for an excuse not to do anything.