New inquests into stardust deaths

splinter65

[Deleted User] wrote: »

After 38 years, I'd be of the opinion that the only charges worth pursuing are war crimes and murders.

What would you like to see happen at the end of this?

I suppose Mrs Keegan and her family would like to see some justice for her daughters Mary and Martina who were burned to death on a night out and her husband who died of the stress of it. They’ve had no justice. The Butterlys never had to answer for the deaths for which they are directly to blame.

splinter65

splinter65 wrote: »

I suppose Mrs Keegan and her family would like to see some justice for her daughters Mary and Martina who were burned to death on a night out and her husband who died of the stress of it. They’ve had no justice. The Butterlys never had to answer for the deaths for which they are directly to blame.

I have every sympathy with the families. But you say the butterlys ( I’m assuming they were the owners) are to blame. If the inquiry said fire regulation laws were not in place so they didn’t break any laws, I don’t think you’d be happy. So what’s the point.

endainoz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLeSImIb2aw

weldoninhio

weldoninhio wrote: »

I did a fire safety course a few weeks ago for work. The Fire laws in Ireland were changed immediately after the Stardust. Apparently, according to the tutor, it was, and still is, the fastest drafted legislation in the history of the state.

It wasn't just Stardust that initiated the that, but there was a fire in Bundoran less than 6 months previous which is not very well known. Stardust essentially drew all the attention and overshadowed it. The fact that 2 tragedies happened so close to one another meant the government at the time were in the firing line to do something about it.

Ironically, the drafting of that legislation is one of the few good things to have come out of the tragedies. It could be argued that more lives have been saved since because of how robust the codes and regulations became.

odyssey06

After this amount of elapsed time, not sure what new information this can bring to light?
Some of the people involved - I don't just mean the victims - are deceased. They can't redo the forensics.

Obviously, if this had been held, soon after the event, real answers might have been forthcoming.
I'm just doubtful about what it can discover now \ closure it can deliver.
It will put the families through the emotional wringer again.

ohnonotgmail

odyssey06 wrote: »

After this amount of elapsed time, not sure what new information this can bring to light?
Some of the people involved - I don't just mean the victims - are deceased. They can't redo the forensics.

Obviously, if this had been held, soon after the event, real answers might have been forthcoming.
I'm just doubtful about what it can discover now \ closure it can deliver.
It will put the families through the emotional wringer again.

It is the families that have been campaigning for the inquest. I'm sure they are aware of how emotional it will be for them.

Seth Brundle

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

I have every sympathy with the families. But you say the butterlys ( I’m assuming they were the owners) are to blame. If the inquiry said fire regulation laws were not in place so they didn’t break any laws, I don’t think you’d be happy. So what’s the point.

The causes can be discovered or disclosed and assumptions about blame can be made without proving that anyone broke the law.
The fact is that the policy in there (and presumably elsewhere) of chaining fire exits to stop people getting in without paying is one of the causes of the tragedy.
The owners of the premises are presumably responsible for this regardless of whether they actually broke a law (or even if it wasn't against the law).

odyssey06

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

It is the families that have been campaigning for the inquest. I'm sure they are aware of how emotional it will be for them.

Yes that did occur to me. I hope (and at the same time reasonably doubt) that the inquest will be able to bring sufficient light \ closure on the events for them to balance against that.

Skylinehead

BrownFinger wrote: »

Genuine question,
What do they hope to achieve with the new inquiry?

tdf7187 wrote: »

The further enrichment of the corrupt and debased legal profession.

Deleted User wrote: »

They aren't war criminals or former high-up Nazis. It was 38 years ago.

weldoninhio wrote: »

I was thinking the same. It's like no matter what they are told they cannot accept it. They are so invested in protesting it that they can't give it up.

Jesus, you people would complain about anything. Weldoninho especially.

Do you feel the same about the Hillsborough inquiry being reopened? Sure it was ages ago. Justice and victim-blaming be damned.

Do you feel the same about the church child abuse inquiry? Sure it was decades ago. Who cares about some kids getting justice?

Justice was not served for Stardust. There is no closure. They're entirely entitled to try and get some answers here, they've been trying for years.

But yeah, just go ahead and complain about lawyers and professional protesters. You disgust me.

jam_mac_jam

Its their kids and families in fairness. I hope my parents or my sisters wouldn't just say oh well its been a few years now lets just forget about it.

If it was one of my sisters or my son I would keep fighting.

is_that_so

D13exile wrote: »

What outcome? Let me see......
48 young people died.

Over 200 were injured.

No one was ever held accountable.

The Butterlys (owners of the Stardust) received over €730,000 in compensation from Dublin Corporation while the families of the dead and injured received nothing.

How about finding who was criminally responsible for locking fire exits?
How about finding out why the Butterlys, owners of the Stardust, get compensation from the state for their building that was the scene of the greatest loss of life from a fire in this country?

Smacks to me and a huge majority of people living near the Stardust that there was a cover up and the wealthy elite were protected and compensated by their powerful friends. What would you say? There's no proof of that? Probably why a proper enquiry was stalled for so long, so witnesses die, evidence is lost and people get away with what is nothing short of mass murder/manslaughter through gross negligence.

I'll be surprised if anything much of this will emerge. Can I also suggest you stop jumping on posters who just ask questions? I wish them luck but I wouldn't be optimistic.

Eric Cartman

PhilOssophy wrote: »

A bit like Hillsborough, if your child had died you might view time as not being a healer.
If this had happened in Club Anabel, just like if Hillsborough had happened at Twickenham, there would have been an investigation straight away.
But because it was in a working class part of Dublin, the political elite did not care.

If it was in a middle class part of dublin the chances of the doors being chained to stop people sneaking in, the fire being started and the overcrowding would be a lot less likely too.

Its not the fault of the dead by any chance, arsonist and the management hold all the blame. I hope this is admitted and those people named and put into the history books for this tragic incident.

anewme

Eric Cartman wrote: »

PhilOssophy wrote: »

A bit like Hillsborough, if your child had died you might view time as not being a healer.
If this had happened in Club Anabel, just like if Hillsborough had happened at Twickenham, there would have been an investigation straight away.
But because it was in a working class part of Dublin, the political elite did not care.

If it was in a middle class part of dublin the chances of the doors being chained to stop people sneaking in, the fire being started and the overcrowding would be a lot less likely too.

I find it incredulous that you have written this, when a poster has already said that a relative of theirs lost their life in the fire.

Have a bit of respect.

Eric Cartman

anewme wrote: »

I find it incredulous that you have written this, when a poster has already said that a relative of theirs lost their life in the fire.

Have a bit of respect.

I have said its a tragedy and the atendees (except the arsonist) were in no way at fault and that I hope those responsible are named and shamed.

I don't see anything wrong with pointing out that unfortunatly certain behaviours and certain 'security practices' are a lot more likely in low income areas, a sad fact but a fact.

Eric Cartman

Johnny Adairs Horse wrote: »

It was never proven that there was an arsonist.

Equally, it was never proven that it was accidental.

If they couldn't prove what causes it in 1981 how can they find out what caused it now?

im basing this off them getting the 'arson' payout. id imagine insurance investigators at the time tried their damn hardest to not pay out 580,000 pounds.

Esel

Eric Cartman wrote: »

im basing this off them getting the 'arson' payout. id imagine insurance investigators at the time tried their damn hardest to not pay out 580,000 pounds.

As opposed to much higher claims if the owners had been found liable....

mikeym

The families of those who died in the Hillsborough tragedy got justice.

The families of the Stardust fire have being fobbed off all these years and deserve justice.

Watch the videos on youtube if you want to educate yourselves because they died a horrible death

Electric Sheep

Some of us were actually there as well. Hard as it may be for some who think it was so long ago to believe.

Glass fused light

is_that_so wrote: »

There are questions and for long time the blame was on where the fire started and who might have done so. Some of that is already known. While it may be closure of a form for families it is not wrong nor trolling to wonder what the purpose of this inquest is. I'm curious as to what outcome it might reach.

Try be curious enought to put yourself in the place of a family member:

You and your 3 mates are at your house about to head out for the night.
Shout in to your Mam and Dad that your off going out the door.
Meet your sister on the doorstep and say you will see her later when she and her friends head out too.

Its dark the music is playing and your having a great time and the smell if cigarette smoke changes, people start to shout that there is a fire so you and your friends head for the nearest fire exit

When you get there you realise the exit is not opening its been chained closed
Now use your imagination as to how you get out or do you get out without harm? How about your 3 mates or your sister and her friend?

You are lucky and get out you have minor injuries and can only stand and watch the place burn to the ground knowing that there are still people inside.
You still have not found your sister or your mates.
How did your Mam and Dad find out your alive
What happened after that in the morning during the day and in the weeks that follow.

Nearly 40 years later all you have are the photos and the memories.
You got lucky and don't carry any burn scars

The one thing you don't have is a copy of the witness statement you gave about what happened that night. And it not because you refused to give a statement it's because the State had not taken a statement.

Now what do you think should be the first purpose of the inquest?

Foggy Jew

Villan11 wrote: »

Just a point of information, and not specific to this matter:
Inquests in Ireland are, by law, strictly precluded of considering or apportioning blame. The purpose of an inquest is to establish facts surrounding the circumstances of such events. An inquest cannot say that someone is to blame, or that someone is not to blame, it is a neutral hearing.

Exactly. I fear for the families who think they will get 'justice'. Nobody is going to be named, shamed or blamed by this inquest. Nobody.

MonkieSocks

The full orignal Tribunal report for Stardust Tragedy is here.

ShineOn7

Today marks the 40th anniversary

It's yet another jaw dropping coverup in Irish history and yet many will claim "sure it's a grand oul' country"

The Stardust owner - Eamon Butterly - had friends in high places:

From his autobiography "Radishes to Riches", he submits that he dined with Government Ministers and that Kevin Boland, the then Minister for Industry and Commerce, joined Butterly for a coffee and a chat nearly every morning

Another interesting Fianna Fail connection was Jack Lynch who asked Butterly to join Taca, the Fianna Fail fundraising initiative for wealthy businessmen. "We were all Fianna Fáilers" Butterly said in his memoirs.

The investigation into Stardust was an utter fcking disgrace from start to finish and more proof of how much of a kip this country is

billyhead

ShineOn7 wrote: »

Today marks the 40th anniversary

It's yet another jaw dropping coverup in Irish history and yet many will claim "sure it's a grand oul' country"

The Stardust owner - Eamon Butterly - had friends in high places

From his autobiography "Radishes to Riches", he submits that he dined with Government Ministers and that Kevin Boland, the then Minister for Industry and Commerce, joined Butterly for a coffee and a chat nearly every morning

Another interesting Fianna Fail connection was Jack Lynch who asked Butterly to join Taca, the Fianna Fail fundraising initiative for wealthy businessmen. "We were all Fianna Failers" Butterly said in his memoirs.

The investigation into Stardust was an utter fcking disgrace from start to finish and more proof of how much of a kip this country is

Butterly sued the State and got 750,000 or thereabouts. The victims family's got a miserly £7,500 each. It's an absolute disgrace. If it happened over in the leafy surrounds of D4 it would be a different story.

ShineOn7

billyhead wrote: »

Butterly sued the State and got 750,000 or thereabouts.

Millions in today's money

political analyst

mikeym wrote: »

The families of those who died in the Hillsborough tragedy got justice.

The families of the Stardust fire have being fobbed off all these years and deserve justice.

Watch the videos on youtube if you want to educate yourselves because they died a horrible death

Only one person has been convicted in the Hillsborough case so far - for a health-and-safety breach punishable only by a fine.

Duckenfield was acquitted of manslaughter.

The trial of 3 men accused of acting with intention to pervert the course of justice is due to take place this April.

Thelonious Monk

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I have said its a tragedy and the atendees (except the arsonist) were in no way at fault and that I hope those responsible are named and shamed.

I don't see anything wrong with pointing out that unfortunatly certain behaviours and certain 'security practices' are a lot more likely in low income areas, a sad fact but a fact.

I think you're just trying to get a dig in and trying to blame it on poor people that you loathe so much.
It's Artane, I'm from around the corner from the site. It was always a normal working class area, not a ghetto ffs. People used to always try and sneak into the Grove in Clontarf by the way, a rather affluent area.

ohnonotgmail

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I think you're just trying to get a dig in and trying to blame it on poor people that you loathe so much.
It's Artane, I'm from around the corner from the site. It was always a normal working class area, not a ghetto ffs. People used to always try and sneak into the Grove in Clontarf by the way, a rather affluent area.

raheny not clontarf but yeah people did try to sneak in. I never did of course but usually because I was too pissed to climb walls. and eric has never hid his disdain for poor people.

mvt

Some shameful replies here even if to be expected going by previous posts of some of them.

I was in secondary school & remember well the night with the news on the radio.

Don't forget that the victims of that night were not just the young men & women who were left to their fate by men who should have known better.

political analyst

Foggy Jew wrote: »

Exactly. I fear for the families who think they will get 'justice'. Nobody is going to be named, shamed or blamed by this inquest. Nobody.

But their lawyers must have explained the nature of the inquest to them.

end of the road

political analyst wrote: »

But their lawyers must have explained the nature of the inquest to them.

i would imagine they have yes.