Naming Bridges etc For Marginal Historical Figures Based On Gender

Boggles

SafeSurfer wrote: »

A new bridge over the river Barrow has been named the Rose FitzGerald Kennedy Bridge.
A different name received more votes from the public. Rose Kennedy is, at best, a very marginal historical figure. The mother of a dead US president and senator. She was never elected to office, didn’t invent anything or discover a cure for anything.
Is naming bridges etc for figures based not on achievements but on gender or other criteria nonsense?

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/newrossstandard/news/vote-will-see-iconic-bridge-named-after-rose-kennedy-37325510.html

n a public submissions process in May there were 142 valid submissions from County Wexford residents and 47 different names were suggested. 71 valid submissions were received in Kilkenny, with 30 names proposed.

27 people made submissions for the Rose Fitzgerald Kennedy name to New Ross Municipal District, followed by 17 for the Pink Rock Bridge and 16 for the William Marshal Bridge. One person suggested the Michael D Higgins Bridge

Outrage over?

kneemos

Boggles wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/newrossstandard/news/vote-will-see-iconic-bridge-named-after-rose-kennedy-37325510.html



Outrage over?

Twenty seven people is a landslide.

Boggles

kneemos wrote: »

Twenty seven people is a landslide.

Moot.

The claim was more people voted for another name.

Cookie_Monster

Overheal wrote: »

Do I need to care about this more than the Boaty McBoatface scandal (Read: not at all)?

Yes, yes you do.
BridgyMcBridgeface ftw

Pherekydes

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Fine Gael TD Catherine Byrne wanted to gentrify the Liberties by renaming it 'SOHO', for south of Heuston (station) after the red light district in London. What a jack ass. Didn't go down well.

She probably didn't notice that 'south of Heuston' would give SoHe. Dim jack ass.

SafeSurfer

Boggles wrote: »

SafeSurfer wrote: »

A new bridge over the river Barrow has been named the Rose FitzGerald Kennedy Bridge.
A different name received more votes from the public. Rose Kennedy is, at best, a very marginal historical figure. The mother of a dead US president and senator. She was never elected to office, didn’t invent anything or discover a cure for anything.
Is naming bridges etc for figures based not on achievements but on gender or other criteria nonsense?

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/newrossstandard/news/vote-will-see-iconic-bridge-named-after-rose-kennedy-37325510.html

n a public submissions process in May there were 142 valid submissions from County Wexford residents and 47 different names were suggested. 71 valid submissions were received in Kilkenny, with 30 names proposed.

27 people made submissions for the Rose Fitzgerald Kennedy name to New Ross Municipal District, followed by 17 for the Pink Rock Bridge and 16 for the William Marshal Bridge. One person suggested the Michael D Higgins Bridge

Outrage over?

http://www.munster-express.ie/front-page-news/more-sparks-fly-over-rose-kennedy-bridge/

“For me and for a lot of people it’s hugely disappointing that the Pink Rock Bridge, the name which gained the most public support in terms of submissions to both local authorities, 34 in our Municipal District and 17 in New Ross, a total of 51, has not been selected for the new bridge,” said Cllr Doherty following the vote.

“A majority of Councillors have instead approved the name of Rose Fitzgerald Kennedy for the bridge despite it receiving just one public submission in Kilkenny and 27 in Wexford. The statistics are there. The facts speak for themselves: 51 to 28, overwhelming support for the Pink Rock Bridge to be put forward as the name for this magnificent new bridge but seven New Ross Councillors, in addition to one of our own, supported the Rose Kennedy option, and to me, it’s hugely disappointing.”

Boggles

SafeSurfer wrote: »

http://www.munster-express.ie/front-page-news/more-sparks-fly-over-rose-kennedy-bridge/

“For me and for a lot of people it’s hugely disappointing that the Pink Rock Bridge, the name which gained the most public support in terms of submissions to both local authorities, 34 in our Municipal District and 17 in New Ross, a total of 51, has not been selected for the new bridge,” said Cllr Doherty following the vote.

“A majority of Councillors have instead approved the name of Rose Fitzgerald Kennedy for the bridge despite it receiving just one public submission in Kilkenny and 27 in Wexford. The statistics are there. The facts speak for themselves: 51 to 28, overwhelming support for the Pink Rock Bridge to be put forward as the name for this magnificent new bridge but seven New Ross Councillors, in addition to one of our own, supported the Rose Kennedy option, and to me, it’s hugely disappointing.”

The public supported the decision made in this chamber without any shadow of a doubt and I would be very supportive of the name, Rose Fitzgerald Kennedy. The public have had their say and I think they should be listened to.'

Someone is not telling the truth.

I imagine it comes down to valid submissions.

optogirl

boombang wrote: »

I definitely think there's a revisionist gender agenda regarding such naming.

I didn't know who Rosie Hackett was until they named a bridge after her. I definitely knew how Sean O'Casey and Samuel Beckett were before the bridges were named after them.

Still, we have to be fair and recognise that men have had it way easier to achieve prominence throughout history.

Despite that, there are plenty of ring roads named after male gobshíte local councilors who don't deserve to have a a manhole cover dedicated to them.

I think that's very much the point

randd1

kneemos wrote: »

The folk of New Ross I believe are beyond sick of everything around them being named after another Kennedy.

Not a shower I'd name anything after.

The Kennedy Curse Bridge?

Roger Hassenforder

Boggles wrote: »

n a public submissions process in May there were 142 valid submissions from County Wexford residents and 47 different names were suggested. 71 valid submissions were received in Kilkenny, with 30 names proposed.

27 people made submissions for the Rose Fitzgerald Kennedy name to New Ross Municipal District, followed by 17 for the Pink Rock Bridge and 16 for the William Marshal Bridge. One person suggested the Michael D Higgins Bridge

The Kilkenny people missed a trick. If all 30 had made the same submission , they'd have a DJ Carey or a Brian Cody bridge in Wexford.

Roger Hassenforder

randd1 wrote: »

The Kennedy Curse Bridge?

The who pissed on the powder bridge?

topper75

Was this Rose lady not effectively a County Limerick/County Cavan lady, if we are to see her as 'Irish' at all? She was only married into the Wexford Kennedys.
Also, she was one Thatcher-looking bint altogether:

Boggles

Hang on, so the 2 popular choices was Rose or Pink Rock?

So if the decision was based on gender as the OP claims.

Who is Mr. Pink Rock?

B0jangles

Am I the only one who thinks calling a bridge the 'Pink Rock' is just looking for trouble?

The graffitti almost draws itself.

Boggles

B0jangles wrote: »

Am I the only one who thinks calling a bridge the 'Pink Rock' is just looking for trouble?

The graffitti almost draws itself.

Sounds like a DIY tool for a lady!

SafeSurfer

optogirl wrote: »

boombang wrote: »

I definitely think there's a revisionist gender agenda regarding such naming.

I didn't know who Rosie Hackett was until they named a bridge after her. I definitely knew how Sean O'Casey and Samuel Beckett were before the bridges were named after them.

Still, we have to be fair and recognise that men have had it way easier to achieve prominence throughout history.

Despite that, there are plenty of ring roads named after male gobshíte local councilors who don't deserve to have a a manhole cover dedicated to them.

I think that's very much the point

I can understand the point of naming bridges for historical female figures who have been historically overlooked, in order to raise their profile.

Rosie Hackett’s fame, however small was due to her own achievements. Not through her relationship (mother) to others achievements.

osarusan

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Not because she is a woman but JUST because she is a woman

Given Wexford's history of playing up the Kennedy link as much as possible, it seems fairly likely it's because she's a Kennedy, not because she's a woman.

I don't think it's a good example at all of what you are suggesting.

SafeSurfer

osarusan wrote: »

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Not because she is a woman but JUST because she is a woman

Given Wexford's history of playing up the Kennedy link as much as possible, it seems fairly likely it's because she's a Kennedy, not because she's a woman.

I don't think it's a good example at all of what you are suggesting.

Well if that’s the case why isn’t it called the Joseph P. Kennedy Bridge?

I am fully supportive of the Mary Eleme Bridge in Cork. Based on merit. Not gender.

osarusan

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Well if that’s the case why isn’t it called the Joseph P. Kennedy Bridge?

I am fully supportive of the Mary Eleme Bridge in Cork. Based on merit. Not gender.

If it had been called the Joseph P. Kennedy bridge, would you be calling that a decision based on gender too?

I think it's a stupid name for a bridge in Ireland, and would have been no better if it was called the Joseph P. Kennedy bridge either.

It would be great if these things were chosen on merit. I'm happy to agree that this isn't the case here. But I don't think her gender had anything to do with it. I think her surname had everything to do with it.

James Brown

Boggles wrote: »

Hang on, so the 2 popular choices was Rose or Pink Rock?

So if the decision was based on gender as the OP claims.

Who is Mr. Pink Rock?

Some folk are looking for outrage so they can claim there's too much outrage these days...it's a thing.

SafeSurfer

osarusan wrote: »

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Well if that’s the case why isn’t it called the Joseph P. Kennedy Bridge?

I am fully supportive of the Mary Eleme Bridge in Cork. Based on merit. Not gender.

If it had been called the Joseph P. Kennedy bridge, would you be calling that a decision based on gender too?

I think it's a stupid name for a bridge in Ireland, and would have been no better if it was called the Joseph P. Kennedy bridge either.

It would be great if these things were chosen on merit. I'm happy to agree that this isn't the case here. But I don't think her gender had anything to do with it. I think her surname had everything to do with it.

If it was based on the Kennedy surname would you agree that there are many Kennedy’s whose achievements are far more deserving of having a bridge named after them?

The Councillors who voted on it said it fulfilled “social inclusion” criteria.

What perceived social disadvantage does Rose Kennedy represent apart from gender?

osarusan

SafeSurfer wrote: »

If it was based on the Kennedy surname would you agree that there are many Kennedy’s whose achievements are far more deserving of having a bridge named after them?

Apart from JFK himself (who has enough stuff named after him), the only ones that make any sense to me are the actual Irish Kennedy ancestors, whoever they are and whenever they left. At least 2 generations earlier I think.

Apart from that, whoever they chose is going to be a load of rubbish. No matter what reason they give, it's really because of the name. If you want to make a big deal of the fact that, in looking for a Kennedy to name the bridge after no matter how little it's actually merited, they selected his undeserving mother ahead of his undeserving father, then go ahead.

But, let me ask you again, if they had chosen the undeserving father Joseph P. Kennedy as the name of the bridge, would have started this thread saying he was chosen because of his gender?

SafeSurfer

osarusan wrote: »

SafeSurfer wrote: »

If it was based on the Kennedy surname would you agree that there are many Kennedy’s whose achievements are far more deserving of having a bridge named after them?

Apart from JFK himself (who has enough stuff named after him), the only ones that make any sense to me are the actual Irish Kennedy ancestors, whoever they are and whenever they left. At least 2 generations earlier I think.

Apart from that, whoever they chose is going to be a load of rubbish. No matter what reason they give, it's really because of the name. If you want to make a big deal of the fact that, in looking for a Kennedy to name the bridge after no matter how little it's actually merited, they selected his undeserving mother ahead of his undeserving father, then go ahead.

But, let me ask you again, if they had chosen the undeserving father Joseph P. Kennedy as the name of the bridge, would have started this thread saying he was chosen because of his gender?

I can only go on the actual reasons given by the Councillors who actually voted on it. Namely “social inclusion”.

Now as I have asked before, apart from her gender, on what other basis could the white, catholic, millionaire Rose Kennedy be said to be excluded?

osarusan

SafeSurfer wrote: »

I can only go on the actual reasons given by the Councillors who actually voted on it. Namely “social inclusion”.

I don't agree that the 'social inclusion' mentioned is a reference to Rose Kennedy being excluded in some way (and that the 'some way' must have been gender).

Based on the quote from here:

Cllr Oisin O'Connell said he was very satisfied with the process. 'It has been very well thought out and open. I can accept that some of my personal favourites didn't get through. The name people preferred has heritage and would spark people's imagination. The roots of the Kennedy and Fitzgerald names go into both localities and the economic factor is a big one, along with the personal connections. I am very happy with Rose Fitzgerald Kennedy as it works on many levels, including social inclusion.'

it looks to me like the 'social inclusion' refers to the fact (or claim) that the Kennedy and Fitzgerald names are embedded in the local society and have personal connections and so on, hence it's inclusive in Wexford today.

SafeSurfer

osarusan wrote: »

SafeSurfer wrote: »

I can only go on the actual reasons given by the Councillors who actually voted on it. Namely “social inclusion”.

I don't agree that the 'social inclusion' mentioned is a reference to Rose Kennedy being excluded in some way (an that the 'some way' must have been gender).

Based on the quote from here:

Cllr Oisin O'Connell said he was very satisfied with the process. 'It has been very well thought out and open. I can accept that some of my personal favourites didn't get through. The name people preferred has heritage and would spark people's imagination. The roots of the Kennedy and Fitzgerald names go into both localities and the economic factor is a big one, along with the personal connections. I am very happy with Rose Fitzgerald Kennedy as it works on many levels, including social inclusion.'

it looks to me like the 'social inclusion' refers to the fact (or claim) that the Kennedy and Fitzgerald names are embedded in the local society and have personal connections and so on, hence it's inclusive.

Social inclusion:
Social inclusion is the process of improving the terms on which individuals and groups take part in society—improving the ability, opportunity, and dignity of those disadvantaged on the basis of their identity.

From the same Councillor “the name not only applies to a woman, but to a mother as well”.

Tony EH

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Under a bridge?

Congratulations!

You've just won the thread Joey.

Tony EH

B0jangles wrote: »

Am I the only one who thinks calling a bridge the 'Pink Rock' is just looking for trouble?

The graffitti almost draws itself.

And the same folk moaning about it being named after a woman, would probably moan about it sounding "a bit gay".

SafeSurfer

Tony EH wrote: »

B0jangles wrote: »

Am I the only one who thinks calling a bridge the 'Pink Rock' is just looking for trouble?

The graffitti almost draws itself.

And the same folk moaning about it being named after a woman, would probably moan about it sounding "a bit gay".

If you think people are moaning about the bridge because it’s named after a woman you haven’t been paying attention.

Should the Rosie Hackett Bridge have been called after her father?

ohnonotgmail

SafeSurfer wrote: »

If you think people are moaning about the bridge because it’s named after a woman you haven’t been paying attention.

Should the Rosie Hackett Bridge have been called after her father?

the thread title is

Naming Bridges etc For Marginal Historical Figures Based On Gender

So i think it is fair to say that people are moaning becuase it is named after a woman.

osarusan

SafeSurfer wrote: »

From the same Councillor “the name not only applies to a woman, but to a mother as well”.

Seriously, so what?

If the bridge had been named Joseph P. Kennedy bridge, and councillor had come out with 'the name not only applies to a man, but to a father as well', would it make any difference?

I genuinely don't see how you make a connection between what the councillor said and the social exclusion (as you see it) of Rose Kennedy in the USA in the last century.

You have hung your hat on that quote by one councillor (and your interpretation of it), but here are a few more for you:

'The new bridge will be unique in the world and a tourist attraction for the area,' Mr Hore added. He said: 'While the entire N25 New Ross bypass represents an amazing technical and construction undertaking, there can be little doubt that the magnificent bridge over the River Barrow is the outstanding technical achievement in all of Ireland in recent times and a technical achievement of international standing. We are 10 months out from the opening of the bypass which will fundamentally change New Ross town.'


New Ross Cathaoirleach Cllr John Fleming said he made a submission in favour of the name because he has seen the economic benefit being associated with the Kennedys has had for New Ross, as highlighted by the crowds at the Kennedy Summer School.



'Over the years tens of thousands of people have come to New Ross due to the Kennedy connection. Having a proper name to promote an area is the key. We owe this to the rate payers, the restaurateurs, coffee shop owners and gift shop owners having increased the rates. I want to see New Ross thrive and the bridge is a wonderful feat of engineering.'

Speaking after the meeting Mr Hore said a survey carried out recently found that 80 per cent of people think New Ross should use the Kennedy brand name. 'There would be no John F Kennedy Arboretum, Homestead or Dunbrody centre without the Kennedy name. It's a no brainer. I thought it was genius when Gene Kennedy Smith came up with the Rose Fitzgerald Kennedy name as it works on so many levels for New Ross.'

Cllr Sheehan said he favours the William Marshal name, believing the town's authorities are overusing the name of Kennedy.

It's all about using the Kennedy name. It always has been. One of them even describes it as using the 'Kennedy brand name.'


I think, as I said earlier, it's a poor example of the argument you are trying to make, because there is so much evidence and history of the Kennedy name being used for tourism purposes.