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Another split - Paul Murphy leaves the Socialist Party

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    #302
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,505 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    facehugger99 wrote: »
    The Left has always had a strange type of self-hatred.

    Their default position is to oppose everything but ask them to formulate any policy positions of their own and the cracks soon start to appear.

    If it didn't entail the economic destruction of the country, it would almost be funny to give them decade to enact their policies and see how they actually manage to Govern.

    They appeal, almost exclusively, to the hard of thinking. It's why I'm a big supporter of investment in education, I'd especially like to see basic economics taught in secondary school. I believe that the more educated the electorate, the better the politicians we'll end up with

    This is years ago so it is different now, I knew a socialist /communist a genuine believer that there was a better way, they came from a working-class background went to Trinity when very few to no working-class people did and it shaped their politics.

    Before the modern internet age most were very cut off from seeing how the others lived and how power worked in society and in Ireland's case you had the grip of the catholic church on society as well.

    The educate together schools, the lessing influence of the catholic church, and ideas about everyone having an equal opportunity, a meaningful life, dignified working conditions did not arise from nowhere.


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    #303
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 35,093 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Love this analysis! https://gript.ie/analysis-paul-murphys-new-party-declares-war-on-sums/

    Gript = Youth Defence so I won't be clicking on that tyvm.

    mariaalice wrote: »
    The educate together schools, the lessing influence of the catholic church, and ideas about everyone having an equal opportunity, a meaningful life, dignified working conditions did not arise from nowhere.

    Educate Together schools are still a tiny minority, not available in most areas, and are not a "left" or "right" idea - secularism is taken as read in most developed countries but not ours, yet. Ironically the most religion-free public education system outside of Communist China is probably the USA.

    © 1982 Sinclair Research Ltd



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    #304
    Ruraldweller56
    Registered Users Posts: 938 ✭✭✭Ruraldweller56


    mariaalice wrote: »
    This is years ago so it is different now, I knew a socialist /communist a genuine believer that there was a better way, they came from a working-class background went to Trinity when very few to no working-class people did and it shaped their politics.

    Before the modern internet age most were very cut off from seeing how the others lived and how power worked in society and in Ireland's case you had the grip of the catholic church on society as well.

    The educate together schools, the lessing influence of the catholic church, and ideas about everyone having an equal opportunity, a meaningful life, dignified working conditions did not arise from nowhere.

    Age old sources of comfort and happiness - religion, community, national identity, family - bad.

    Modern day individualism, 'educate together' schools, lack of community ethos, lack of spirituality, blue hair, drug use - good.


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    #305
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,505 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    Ruraldweller56 wrote: »
    Age old sources of comfort and happiness - religion, community, national identity, family - bad.

    Modern day individualism, 'educate together' schools, lack of community ethos, lack of spirituality, blue hair, drug use - good.

    I am at a loss as how you got that from my post?, anyway I can see how someone from a working class background, coming to what was then a bastion of privilege migh have a few questions about the society they live it and from that develope some political views.

    Plus its not a question of good or bad.


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    #306
    nkl12xtw5goz70
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭nkl12xtw5goz70


    mariaalice wrote: »
    The educate together schools, the lessing influence of the catholic church, and ideas about everyone having an equal opportunity, a meaningful life, dignified working conditions did not arise from nowhere.

    Garret FitzGerald did more to modernise the economy and liberalise Irish society than the entire far left put together.


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    #307
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,505 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    Kason Witty Beehive wrote: »
    Garret FitzGerald did more to modernise the economy and liberalise Irish society than the entire far left put together.

    I am not ascribing anything good or bad to the left, but ideas that change society for the better have to arise somehow and it is usually because someone or a some group questions the status quo in some way.


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    #308
    nkl12xtw5goz70
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭nkl12xtw5goz70


    mariaalice wrote: »
    I am not ascribing anything good or bad to the left, but ideas that change society for the better have to arise somehow and it is usually because someone or a some group questions the status quo in some way.

    Ideas that screw up societies have to arise somewhere too, and the far left bears disproportionate responsibility for the widespread destruction of life, wealth, and human potential over the past century, using variants of the same corrosive ideology that Murphy parrots today.


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    #309
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Kason Witty Beehive wrote: »
    Garret FitzGerald did more to modernise the economy and liberalise Irish society than the entire far left put together.

    Which leftist or far left government didn't bother...oh wait, we've never had one.


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    #310
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Kason Witty Beehive wrote: »
    Ideas that screw up societies have to arise somewhere too, and the far left bears disproportionate responsibility for the widespread destruction of life, wealth, and human potential over the past century, using variants of the same corrosive ideology that Murphy parrots today.

    How do you think housing crises come about?
    We will have a situation very shortly were only a tiny minority will own property. The wealthy buying housing, building housing and the vast majority being renters. That's were the market has us going.
    A working couple likely can't afford to buy anymore. This is a prime example of what's wrong with leaving anything to the markets. Who ever has the most money wins every time. That's not a concept that pairs well with a society.
    We see the same in health and education. Societies are about everybody, not letting the wealthy get on with it at the detriment of those lesser off.


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    #311
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,971 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    How do you think housing crises come about?
    We will have a situation very shortly were only a tiny minority will own property. The wealthy buying housing, building housing and the vast majority being renters. That's were the market has us going.
    A working couple likely can't afford to buy anymore. This is a prime example of what's wrong with leaving anything to the markets. Who ever has the most money wins every time. That's not a concept that pairs well with a society.
    We see the same in health and education. Societies are about everybody, not letting the wealthy get on with it at the detriment of those lesser off.



    Societies are about everybody, but they are about everybody contributing not just receiving.

    Murphy has nothing to say about contributing to society - that is for someone else.


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    #312
    Ruraldweller56
    Registered Users Posts: 938 ✭✭✭Ruraldweller56


    People like Paul Murphy attack institutions that have served as the glue which has held society together for centuries. Religion, national identity, the family unit and community spirit must all take a backseat (or be wiped out completely) by the liberal communist manifesto.

    All to be replaced with shallow Materialism and selfish individualism. An eradication of the entrepreneurial spirit and a child like, pathetic helpless dependency on the state to regulate everything and anything for them.

    Every Marxist I know is obsessed with property. Its the be all and end all of their philosophy.


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    #313
    Ruraldweller56
    Registered Users Posts: 938 ✭✭✭Ruraldweller56


    Ruraldweller56 wrote: »
    People like Paul Murphy attack institutions that have served as the glue which has held society together for centuries. Religion, national identity, the family unit and community spirit must all take a backseat (or be wiped out completely) by the liberal communist manifesto.

    All to be replaced with shallow Materialism and selfish individualism. An eradication of the entrepreneurial spirit and a child like, pathetic helpless dependency on the state to regulate everything and anything for them.

    Every Marxist I know is obsessed with property. Its the be all and end all of their philosophy.

    He truly is a sick individual.

    https://www.letusrise.ie/what-we-stand-for


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    #314
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Ruraldweller56 wrote: »
    People like Paul Murphy attack institutions that have served as the glue which has held society together for centuries. Religion, national identity, the family unit and community spirit must all take a backseat (or be wiped out completely) by the liberal communist manifesto.

    All to be replaced with shallow Materialism and selfish individualism. An eradication of the entrepreneurial spirit and a child like, pathetic helpless dependency on the state to regulate everything and anything for them.

    Every Marxist I know is obsessed with property. Its the be all and end all of their philosophy.

    It's great though isn't it? Religion was used by nasty people to keep society in line. I suppose that's holding society together.


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    #315
    begsbyOnaTrain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 272 ✭✭begsbyOnaTrain


    Ruraldweller56 wrote: »
    Every Marxist I know is obsessed with property. Its the be all and end all of their philosophy.

    Aye and actually aren't Paul M and his ilk, the only far lefties in Europe which oppose a property tax? :pac:


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    #316
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Societies are about everybody, but they are about everybody contributing not just receiving.

    Agreed. We must be careful that we police those making a fortune off the misery of others IMO.
    blanch152 wrote: »
    Murphy has nothing to say about contributing to society - that is for someone else.

    Yeah, I dunno.


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    #317
    Ruraldweller56
    Registered Users Posts: 938 ✭✭✭Ruraldweller56


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    It's great though isn't it? Religion was used by nasty people to keep society in line. I suppose that's holding society together.

    Oh I'm sure it wasn't perfect. But I'll take it every day of the week over Murphy and his soviet Ireland.


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    #318
    Ruraldweller56
    Registered Users Posts: 938 ✭✭✭Ruraldweller56


    begsbyOnaTrain wrote: »
    Aye and actually aren't Paul M and his ilk, the only far lefties in Europe which oppose a property tax? :pac:

    I wonder what the rationale there is. I guess in the communist utopia everybody would live in the exact same type of house. All owned by the state. So I guess the concept of a property tax wouldn't carry much weight.

    Don't people like Dermot Bannon advocate a fully renting type of society? I could imagine the likes of him happy to be renting his own house alright. Or not. I'd say he just thinks renting should be the norm for poor people.

    When you examine it. Extreme capitalists and extreme lefties really aren't all that different.


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    #319
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,567 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Ruraldweller56 wrote:
    Every Marxist I know is obsessed with property. Its the be all and end all of their philosophy.


    Very few Marxists left on this planet, I'd imagine there's far more free market libertarians, and they seem to have far more interest in property, particularly it's continual increase in value, and how this mysteriously trickles down, or something, using the act of invisibility, or something....


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    #320
    nkl12xtw5goz70
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭nkl12xtw5goz70


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    Very few Marxists left on this planet, I'd imagine there's far more free market libertarians...

    The Irish Times reported yesterday that there are now 15 different political parties or groups in the country promoting far-left (i.e., Marxist) ideology.

    How many political parties or groups are promoting free-market libertarianism?


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    #321
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,467 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Kason Witty Beehive wrote: »
    The Irish Times reported yesterday that there are now 15 different political parties or groups in the country promoting far-left (i.e., Marxist) ideology.

    How many political parties or groups are promoting free-market libertarianism?

    Most of those groups could hold their party conference in a phonebox.


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    #322
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 35,093 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Ruraldweller56 wrote: »
    Age old sources of comfort and happiness - religion, community, national identity, family - bad.

    Modern day individualism, 'educate together' schools, lack of community ethos, lack of spirituality, blue hair, drug use - good.

    Yeah, lots of comfort and happiness in the Magdalene laundries, or industrial schools, sacristies and parochial houses where kids were raped with impunity...

    A society of forced piety and conformity and if you didn't like it there was little option other than the cattle boat to England.

    I don't know why you care what colour someone's hair is or that they don't insist on their kids getting catholic indoctrination in school. It doesn't affect your right to live your life as you see fit in any way whatsoever - unlike the sort of societies either the Iona Institute or Paul Murphy would like us to have.

    © 1982 Sinclair Research Ltd



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    #323
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Kason Witty Beehive wrote: »
    The Irish Times reported yesterday that there are now 15 different political parties or groups in the country promoting far-left (i.e., Marxist) ideology.

    How many political parties or groups are promoting free-market libertarianism?

    Probably one member per party. Hardly a sign of anything significant.


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    #324
    Ruraldweller56
    Registered Users Posts: 938 ✭✭✭Ruraldweller56


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Yeah, lots of comfort and happiness in the Magdalene laundries, or industrial schools, sacristies and parochial houses where kids were raped with impunity...

    A society of forced piety and conformity and if you didn't like it there was little option other than the cattle boat to England.

    I don't know why you care what colour someone's hair is or that they don't insist on their kids getting catholic indoctrination in school. It doesn't affect your right to live your life as you see fit in any way whatsoever - unlike the sort of societies either the Iona Institute or Paul Murphy would like us to have.

    My point exactly. Me me me. I do what I want and to hell with society.

    No community ethos. No spirituality. The family unit relegated to a joke piece of paper that can be torn up like it was nothing.

    A sick culture of selfishness and individualism.


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    #325
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,467 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Ruraldweller56 wrote: »
    My point exactly. Me me me. I do what I want and to hell with society.

    No community ethos. No spirituality. The family unit relegated to a joke piece of paper that can be torn up like it was nothing.

    A sick culture of selfishness and individualism.

    we all know what sort of society you want. I'm old enough to have lived through it and i am glad to see the back of it.


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    #326
    Ruraldweller56
    Registered Users Posts: 938 ✭✭✭Ruraldweller56


    Ruraldweller56 wrote: »
    My point exactly. Me me me. I do what I want and to hell with society.

    No community ethos. No spirituality. The family unit relegated to a joke piece of paper that can be torn up like it was nothing.

    A sick culture of selfishness and individualism.

    Now. I'm off to listen to a blindboy ****house podcast. He's soooo deep you know? Telling me how great illegal drugs are and to be honest if I'm feeling depressed. All the while advocating the type of degeneracy that causes depression.

    Really knows what he's talking about that guy.

    Hates Catholics too.

    #Woke yo


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    #327
    zanador
    Registered Users Posts: 505 ✭✭✭zanador


    Ruraldweller56 wrote: »
    My point exactly. Me me me. I do what I want and to hell with society.

    No community ethos. No spirituality. The family unit relegated to a joke piece of paper that can be torn up like it was nothing.

    A sick culture of selfishness and individualism.

    That's an assumption that unless forced and controlled by higher powers people cannot be both individuals and societly and community minded.

    Much like many religious say unless we are threatened by punishment we won't be 'good' which i personally don't agree with.


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    #328
    Ruraldweller56
    Registered Users Posts: 938 ✭✭✭Ruraldweller56


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    we all know what sort of society you want. I'm old enough to have lived through it and i am glad to see the back of it.

    Old enough? The people who have suffered the most because of the Catholic Church are all well under 30 in my experience.


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    #329
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,467 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Ruraldweller56 wrote: »
    Old enough? The people who have suffered the most because of the Catholic Church are all well under 30 in my experience.

    really? i find that very hard to believe.


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    #330
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Ruraldweller56 wrote: »
    Old enough? The people who have suffered the most because of the Catholic Church are all well under 30 in my experience.

    The church had/has absolutely no business using it's myths and legends to enslave the population causing generations of misery. As an organisation they should be ran out of the country IMO.


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    #331
    Patrick2010
    Registered Users Posts: 3,291 ✭✭✭Patrick2010


    Just read their manifesto, very entertaining!
    Apparently they want to nationalize everything in Ireland from “major retail stores “ to service providers, transport companies major multinationals, etc etc
    Imagine they rock up to the likes of Dunnes, Intel, Google and say we’re in control now.
    Oh and of course we have to have open borders, Europe must open up


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