Another split - Paul Murphy leaves the Socialist Party

nkl12xtw5goz70

Matt Barrett wrote: »

My point is if there is government interference, which there is, it should be on the side of the public.

Unfortunately, government interference in markets generally makes things worse for the public rather than better.

And these pension funds behave like big business. A good example would be pension funds buying up properties to rent out while the public, some possibly in the fund, find it harder to pay for accommodation.

Investors in pension funds (i.e., current and future retirees) want returns. If they don't get the returns they anticipate on their pension investments, they will become even more of a burden on the state in the future, so governments are reluctant to stop them seeking those returns. For their part, fund managers are caught between a rock and a hard place—interest rates are at historical lows, and yet they need returns to satisfy their clients, so they have an incentive to pump money into hot asset classes such as REITs, even though doing so exacerbates the rental crisis for younger folks.

The solution is simple — central bankers have to let the market environment return to normal. But they won't do that. So this is really a government- and central bank–generated crisis, albeit one that is regularly blamed on "the market."

NoteAgent

[quote="Kason Witty Beehive;111399682"
The solution is simple — central bankers have to let the market environment return to normal. But they won't do that. So this is really a government- and central bank–generated crisis, albeit one that is regularly blamed on "the market."[/quote]

If youre talking about unwinding QE you can forget about that for at least the
next 2 years. Way too much uncertainty: Brexit, German Economy, Italian Government Debt..and thats just the EU. Ideally rates shouldve been raised around 2015 which was a fairly benign year in the global economy

NoteAgent

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Hold on there chief, you put forward the profit is evil sh*te not me so don't take it from there like you're quoting me. If he/she earns profits, good on them, but the tax payer shouldn't be subsidising the profit or taking the austerity hit when the risk taker loses the arse from his trousers.

I agree what happened in 2008 was awful for the ordinary taxpayer
But Imagine if the the Banks were allowed to fail. No international banks would be have prepared to lend to them and soon small Irish businesses wouldnt have been able to get lending for doing day to day business. We would have literally been transported back to the 1800s

James Brown

Kason Witty Beehive wrote: »

Unfortunately, government interference in markets generally makes things worse for the public rather than better.



Investors in pension funds (i.e., current and future retirees) want returns. If they don't get the returns they anticipate on their pension investments, they will become even more of a burden on the state in the future, so governments are reluctant to stop them seeking those returns. For their part, fund managers are caught between a rock and a hard place—interest rates are at historical lows, and yet they need returns to satisfy their clients, so they have an incentive to pump money into hot asset classes such as REITs, even though doing so exacerbates the rental crisis for younger folks.

The solution is simple — central bankers have to let the market environment return to normal. But they won't do that. So this is really a government- and central bank–generated crisis, albeit one that is regularly blamed on "the market."

'The market' is defined by who uses it and controls it. That's why people blame 'the market', it's the greedy individuals in it that cause the problems. The market is as self regulating as greedy people can show restraint.

James Brown

NoteAgent wrote: »

I agree what happened in 2008 was awful for the ordinary taxpayer
But Imagine if the the Banks were allowed to fail. No international banks would be have prepared to lend to them and soon small Irish businesses wouldnt have been able to get lending for doing day to day business. We would have literally been transported back to the 1800s

You said 'risk taker', seems to me risk is only for the little people.

nkl12xtw5goz70

Matt Barrett wrote: »

'The market' is defined by who uses it and controls it. That's why people blame 'the market', it's the greedy individuals in it that cause the problems. The market is as self regulating as greedy people can show restraint.

The "greed" in the market is stemming from people demanding decent returns even as interest rates have been driven to zero, or less than zero, due to the actions of central banks.

"Greedy people" aren't necessarily fat-cat, cigar-chomping bankers. They're ordinary people. As you note yourself, the people affected by high rents are often putting their own pension money in the same REITs that are buying up the property.

Ruraldweller56

NoteAgent wrote: »

I agree what happened in 2008 was awful for the ordinary taxpayer
But Imagine if the the Banks were allowed to fail. No international banks would be have prepared to lend to them and soon small Irish businesses wouldnt have been able to get lending for doing day to day business. We would have literally been transported back to the 1800s

That literally made me lol. That's every bit as bad as the 'bUt ThE bAnK bAiLoUt CoMrAdE' that the usual suspects parrot.

Indeed. Catapulted right back to the 1800's. With no electricity or running water. All the airports suddenly shut down. Intel and all of the other big multinational facilities suddenly switched off. In a European English speaking nation.

I genuinely can't tell if comments like that are parody.

You know we could well be better off. We could reconnect as humans. Rediscover our identity and heritage. Rediscover our spirituality and connect with nature. Take up fishing and exercise. Take up DIY. Do something useful.

As opposed to the culture of rabid degeneracy that has ruined this place. Morons with blue hair and their faces stuck in their phones looking at tinder and Greta.

Sometimes I can barely wake up in the morning.

blanch152

Ruraldweller56 wrote: »

That literally made me lol. That's every bit as bad as the 'bUt ThE bAnK bAiLoUt CoMrAdE' that the usual suspects parrot.

Indeed. Catapulted right back to the 1800's. With no electricity or running water. All the airports suddenly shut down. Intel and all of the other big multinational facilities suddenly switched off. In a European English speaking nation.

I genuinely can't tell if comments like that are parody.

You know we could well be better off. We could reconnect as humans. Rediscover our identity and heritage. Rediscover our spirituality and connect with nature. Take up fishing and exercise. Take up DIY. Do something useful.

As opposed to the culture of rabid degeneracy that has ruined this place. Morons with blue hair and their faces stuck in their phones looking at tinder and Greta.

Sometimes I can barely wake up in the morning.

Agreed.

Lenihan and Cowen panicked. Against the advice of the Department of Finance, they guaranteed all of the banks for the "cheapest" bailout of all time. The view in Finance was that Anglo should be let fail, and the others rescued. Would have cost a lot less.

ShiverinEskimo

Ruraldweller56 wrote: »

You know we could well be better off. We could reconnect as humans. Rediscover our identity and heritage. Rediscover our spirituality and connect with nature. Take up fishing and exercise. Take up DIY. Do something useful.

Yea everyone would suddenly go full hippy overnight and forget the modern way of life in favour of living in trees.

Plenty of people are connected to family, the outdoors, fishing and exercise as is. And even more are handy at the DIY. We don't need a financial apocalypse to encourage it TYVM.

JohnnyFlash

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Which leftist or far left government didn't bother...oh wait, we've never had one.

That’s democracy, Matthew. People don’t vote in large numbers for the loony left.

Danzy

blanch152 wrote: »

Agreed.

Lenihan and Cowen panicked. Against the advice of the Department of Finance, they guaranteed all of the banks for the "cheapest" bailout of all time. The view in Finance was that Anglo should be let fail, and the others rescued. Would have cost a lot less.

They didn't panic, they weren't rushed in to it.

They worked out a solution with the banks.

zanador

normanoffside wrote: »

I also don’t get Murphy’s obsession with transgender rights. It’s not exactly a tenant of Marxist Ideology. Quite the opposite in fact.

Marxism is a theory and ideology that is applied to issues rather than the other way round.

In terms of theory it is excellent - educational Marxist theory is fascinating. In terms of practical application I think it doesnt take into account human nature and thus can never be applied successfully same goes for fascism. They can mess stuff up for a while but we always swing kind of centre again in the end.

The cycle has been getting quicker though which is end of empire and democracy stuff which is fascinating and probably a consequence of the internet but would have happened anyway. I hope I am alive to see what comes next. And I hope we stand up and do what is right in terms of humanity rather than greed - whichever political side we label ourselves as.

nkl12xtw5goz70

zanador wrote: »

Marxism is a theory and ideology that is applied to issues rather than the other way round.

And as the saying goes, when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

In terms of theory it is excellent

This would also seem to apply:

zanador

Kason Witty Beehive wrote: »

This would also seem to apply:

I'm.not saying Marxism is the solution - I don't think it is - but that could also apply to the capitalist dream that trickle down economies do anything except allow greed to flourish at the top and the poor/rich divide to get bigger.


All ideologies are dreams that we then try to squash people into.

nkl12xtw5goz70

zanador wrote: »

I'm.not saying Marxism is the solution - I don't think it is - but that could also apply to the capitalist dream that trickle down economies do anything except allow greed to flourish at the top and the poor/rich divide to get bigger.

That's a nonsensical claim. Capitalism benefits everyone. Before the onset of industrialisation, an estimated 94 percent of the world's population lived in poverty. Since then, the proportion of the global population in poverty has steadily declined—and the rate of decline has accelerated in recent years. The numbers living on a dollar a day or less fell from 27 percent of the world's population in 1970 to just 5 percent in 2006.

Meanwhile, efforts to implement Marxism have only ever led to widespread starvation, death, political tyranny, and misery. It's amazing to me that this ideology still has its adherents.

begsbyOnaTrain

Right, so his latest alphabet soup group is called Radical Internationalist Socialist Environmentalist.

Any bets on how long before there's a split there?

mikep

I'm wondering now that he has joined the environmentalist bandwagon will he arrive at any future climate protests with his loud hailer and his Jobstown posse??

That'll annoy the genuine environmentalists no end....

Ulysses Gaze

begsbyOnaTrain wrote: »

Right, so his latest alphabet soup group is called Radical Internationalist Socialist Environmentalist.

Any bets on how long before there's a split there?

This is why no-one takes 30 year old plus Middle Class Marxists/Socialists seriously.

I would expect that type of moniker from a group of 18/20 year old Student Union Marxists who pontificate about the need for a "New Type of Marxism/Socialism" or that "true" Socialism/Marxism has never been properly implemented.

But not from someone that is pushing 40 years of age.

nkl12xtw5goz70

On a practical level, Murphy's new website reads:

End Direct Provision and unjust immigration controls - no to inhumane and discriminatory treatment of asylum seekers, refugees and migrants. A socialist world would have no borders.

So, Murphy wants open borders. But he also wants free education, housing, healthcare, public transport, high-speed internet, etc., for everyone.

How is this achievable if an open borders policy will invite an enormous influx of migrants all eager to get their hands on free everything?

Ulysses Gaze

Kason Witty Beehive wrote: »

On a practical level, Murphy's new website reads:



So, Murphy wants open borders. But he also wants free education, housing, healthcare, public transport, high-speed internet, etc., for everyone.

How is this achievable if an open borders policy will invite an enormous influx of migrants all eager to get their hands on free everything?

Tax the top 1% at 70% and you'll get roughly €250,000,000 or so in added tax revenue from those that hang around.

A drop in the ocean.

Tax the corporations at higher rates and they will all leave, leaving swathes unemployed.

Where is the rest of the funding for this Socialist/Marxist "utopia" coming from? Raid public and private pension funds? Taxing every working person in the country at 70%? 80%?

So penury for everyone then!

nkl12xtw5goz70

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Where is the rest of the funding for this Socialist/Marxist "utopia" coming from? Raid public and private pension funds? Taxing every working person in the country at 70%? 80%?

Ah! Murphy has the answer, of course...

"Use the Apple Tax and the hoarded wealth of the rich"

I do wonder how much it will cost to "Nationalise the banking system and the core sectors of the economy currently controlled by major corporations, including construction, natural resources, the big retail chains, logistics, distribution, transport and telecommunications."

Ruraldweller56

Kason Witty Beehive wrote: »

On a practical level, Murphy's new website reads:



So, Murphy wants open borders. But he also wants free education, housing, healthcare, public transport, high-speed internet, etc., for everyone.

How is this achievable if an open borders policy will invite an enormous influx of migrants all eager to get their hands on free everything?

Careful now or they'll start calling you the R word.

Anyone any idea on how or why this split came about?

I bet it was a power thing. It almost always is. These Marxists are very power hungry. I know a guy who lived in Bulgaria in communist times. He used to say that in the clothes shop the only jacket you could get as a kid was blue or pink. Imagine a tiny cohort of people deciding what everyone has to wear. 'Equality' my arse.

Don't think they were too keen on open borders and mass immigration either.

I wonder what the blue haired freakshows would think. I wonder if they'd still have their lattés and flat whites. Avacados and goji berries. They'd be lucky to have a choice of instant coffee and tea I'd say.

Bet they'd be a few angry tweets sent about that.

begsbyOnaTrain

mikep wrote: »

I'm wondering now that he has joined the environmentalist bandwagon will he arrive at any future climate protests with his loud hailer and his Jobstown posse??

Yes, they're busy upgrading themselves with environmentally friendly tracksuits and have switched to rollies having read of the horrors that filters are impacting on the eco-system.

Ulysses Gaze

Ruraldweller56 wrote: »

Careful now or they'll start calling you the R word.

Anyone any idea on how or why this split came about?

I bet it was a power thing. It almost always is. These Marxists are very power hungry. I know a guy who lived in Bulgaria in communist times. He used to say that in the clothes shop the only jacket you could get as a kid was blue or pink. Imagine a tiny cohort of people deciding what everyone has to wear. 'Equality' my arse.

Don't think they were too keen on open borders and mass immigration either.

I wonder what the blue haired freakshows would think. I wonder if they'd still have their lattand flat whites. Avacados and goji berries. They'd be lucky to have a choice of instant coffee and tea I'd say.

Bet they'd be a few angry tweets sent about that.

Ah-Ha! But Marxists/Socialists have the answer to that one!

State censorship of all internet access a la Saudi or China.

I'm sure the Tech Giants that are based here would LOVE that!

nkl12xtw5goz70

Ruraldweller56 wrote: »

I wonder what the blue haired freakshows would think. I wonder if they'd still have their lattés and flat whites. Avacados and goji berries. They'd be lucky to have a choice of instant coffee and tea I'd say.

Bet they'd be a few angry tweets sent about that.

I don't think there will be lattés, flat whites, avacados, or goji berries in Murphy's new planned economy.

Probably no Twitter either after he nationalises all telecommunications.

begsbyOnaTrain

Kason Witty Beehive wrote: »

I don't think there will be lattés, flat whites, avacados, or goji berries in Murphy's new planned economy.

Probably no Twitter either after he nationalises all telecommunications.

He might emulate Corbyn in the UK who wants to set up a state run social network.

Of course all the cool kids and influencers will be flocking to JezzBook.

Ruraldweller56

Kason Witty Beehive wrote: »

Ah! Murphy has the answer, of course...

"Use the Apple Tax and the hoarded wealth of the rich"

I do wonder how much it will cost to "Nationalise the banking system and the core sectors of the economy currently controlled by major corporations, including construction, natural resources, the big retail chains, logistics, distribution, transport and telecommunications."

Isn't one of his solutions to double corporation tax? That means self employed contractors. That's me.

Maybe I'm one of these 'hoarded wealth of the rich' he speaks of.

I'd say he'll find there's a lot of people get up every day and go about their business just trying to make ends meet and try and pay off their mortgage on their small house or send their kids to school affected by that policy.

People like him have no interest in the entrepreneurial spirit that drives innovative that makes us better. He'd have it that we were all lemmings dependent on the state.

Very bleak and dystopian if you ask me.

But.

aRiSe CoMrAdE!!!!

Ulysses Gaze

Ruraldweller56 wrote: »

Isn't one of his solutions to double corporation tax? That means self employed contractors. That's me.

Maybe I'm one of these 'hoarded wealth of the rich' he speaks of.

I'd say he'll find there's a lot of people get up every day and go about their business just trying to make ends meet and try and pay off their mortgage on their small house or send their kids to school affected by that policy.

People like him have no interest in the entrepreneurial spirit that drives innovative that makes us better. He'd have it that we were all lemmings dependent on the state.

Very bleak and dystopian if you ask me.

But.

aRiSe CoMrAdE!!!!

Ulysses Gaze

begsbyOnaTrain wrote: »

He might emulate Corbyn in the UK who wants to set up a state run social network.

Of course all the cool kids and influencers will be flocking to JezzBook.

Perfect for the Momentum Stasi to gather all the personal data of those that question or criticise the "Dear" Leader.

nkl12xtw5goz70

Ruraldweller56 wrote: »

Maybe I'm one of these 'hoarded wealth of the rich' he speaks of.

Murphy and his supporters imagine that the rich have rooms full of hoarded gold, à la Scrooge McDuck, that the state can raid.

In reality, people's wealth is invested in the markets, powering the economy and supporting employment.

Even if Murphy could get away with his unconstitutional expropriation of private property, the effects would be disastrous. If his manifesto were actually implemented, Ireland would not have an economy anymore.