RWC 2019 Ireland v Japan Match Thread: Group A - Sat 28th Sep 08:15 Shizuoka

Clegg

typhoony wrote: »

I applaud his effort but I want a big carry or a big turnover. he's just not powerful enough

That's just shifting the goalposts. You said he was anyonymous. That clearly wasn't the case. You're right that we're missing bulk up front. A strong carrier or presence at the breakdown. But that's not what VdF is there for. He's the workhorse in defence. I think now the question is are we getting enough out of players whose job it is to be affecting rucks?

roverjoyce

randomname2005 wrote: »

Who would you have replaced to make a stronger team?
Healy, first choice
Best, first choice,
Furlong, first choice
Henderson/Ryan, first choice
VdF, Stander, first choice, with POM because of injury is close to first choice
Murray, first choice
Carty, not really, but injuries, recovery from injuries, knocks vs scotland
Stockdale, Earls, Kearney, Ringrose, all arguably first choice. Farrell because of injury.
I don't see where the stronger team comes from, except Sexton, who took a knock and can't play all games.

We have been told this is the strongest panel in our history
If so why not make 3/4 changes in the pack to freshen it up

Joe only trusts 13/14 players the team hasn't evolved since 2017 which is the managers fault
Look at England the way the way Jones has evolved his team since 17, Hartley, Robshaw, Care, Brown, Teo all have been phased out of the team

Clegg

roverjoyce wrote: »

We have been told this is the strongest panel in our history
If so why not make 3/4 changes in the pack to freshen it up

Joe only trusts 13/14 players the team hasn't evolved since 2017 which is the managers fault
Look at England the way the way Jones has evolved his team since 17, Hartley, Robshaw, Care, Brown, Teo all have been phased out of the team

We won the Grand Slam, won our first ever test series in the Southern Hemisphere and beat New Zealand in 2018. So clearly the side evolved from what it was in 2017.

farmerval

I'm not a rugby head but I thought today that after 20-25 minutes our game plan started to go astray.

Japan were holding onto the ball for long periods and when we got it back we just kicked it straight back to them. One turnover we got in the middle of the field and Carty kicks straight back to their corner; right move but wrong time. We reaally needed to start putting phases together. Ringrose was on fire early on but we couldn't get the ball to hime going forward in the second half.

A few small errors, losing the scrum in front of their posts when we were dominating the scrums untill then. One or two lineout malfunctions. The accidental offside between Stander and Farrell was just typical of the slight malaise that had taken hold.

The chance where they turned us over in front of their posts was a huge moment, Ireland have been so clinical in those situations, but after 8-10 pick and goes we throw it wide with what looked like no plan, left Carberry? completely outnumbered and overrun.

I thught Jack Carty's inexperience told as the game wore on, the verylittle possession we had meant we really had to maximise the benefit. I thought he kicked afew balls that might have been the right decisions for the moment but not for the game, if that makes sense.

I don't think I've ever seen any player on any sportsfield look so out on their feet as James Ryan at the end.

Former Former

roverjoyce wrote: »

We have been told this is the strongest panel in our history

It really isn't. I'd say it's the weakest RWC squad since 2003.

Clegg

Former Former wrote: »

It really isn't. I'd say it's the weakest RWC squad since 2003.

Not a chance that the 2007 squad was better.

Clegg

A point about this game that needs to be praised is Japan's ball handling skills. Lightning fast pop passes and offloads that stuck so many times. They played fast, accurate and skillful rugby. The backs coach is Tony Brown, a man who I think is the best in the business. He was linked with Leinster when MoC left and I really wanted him them.

Just get him to any of the provinces and they'll carve it up. May even make Munster look even somewhat competent in the backs.

roverjoyce

Clegg wrote: »

We won the Grand Slam, won our first ever test series in the Southern Hemisphere and beat New Zealand in 2018. So clearly the side evolved from what it was in 2017.

The personnel hasn't though
There hasn't been a new player added to the squad who will get significant playing time from Joe

Former Former

Clegg wrote: »

Not a chance that the 2007 squad was better.

Yeah actually it was awful.

Still, this current squad is not a particularly outstanding collection and it's made worse by the fact that some of our best players are not on form at all (eg Murray, Furlong)

irishproduce

If Jackson hadn't been hounded out of Irish rugby he'd have been in there today.

mooreman09

irishproduce wrote: »

If Jackson hadn't been hounded out of Irish rugby he'd have been in there today.

You mean, had he not ran a train on a hammered young one like a creep...

eagle eye

irishproduce wrote:

If Jackson hadn't been hounded out of Irish rugby he'd have been in there today.

Not a chance he would have been there even if he was squeaky clean.

lawrencesummers

irishproduce wrote: »

If Jackson hadn't been hounded out of Irish rugby he'd have been in there today.

If my aunt had balls....

bdo

Joe got it wrong today with the timimg of putting on the subs. We needed the cavalry on after around 50 minutes, before the tide turned, not after.

I had also been waiting for the James Ryan slowdown. Immense though he is, we have just kept him on in games as if his battery would not wear out at some point.

We were also guilty of our own hubris. Having made a point about our scrum during the week while defending against Japanese comments, we could not then back down and get balls out quicker from scrums that were not going our way. We held on in there, creating problems for ourselves.

lawrencesummers

bdo wrote: »

Joe got it wrong today with the timimg of putting on the subs. We needed the cavalry on after around 50 minutes, before the tide turned, not after.

I had also been waiting for the James Ryan slowdown. Immense though he is, we have just kept him on in games as if his battery would not wear out at some point.

We were also guilty of our own hubris. Having made a point about our scrum during the week while defending against Japanese comments, we could not then back down and get balls out quicker from scrums that were not going our way. We held on in there, creating problems for ourselves.

Don’t you know that this place is populated heavily with people who will never accept joes fallibility

J. Marston

"The results are hidden"

Gotta laugh at the pettiness.

steves2

Just read a sky sports report about the game and even they wrote that Gardiner did not ref the ruck at all and allowed side entries, playing ball on the ground etc. Must be frustrating for the players but they should have adapted to it.

Also Scotland only have a 4 day turnaround until their final game while Japan have 8, though Scotland won't play the exact same team in the 2 games it looks set up for Japan. What struck me most from the game today was that the team were exhausted very early on. I think it was a perfect storm of Japan playing exactly how they wanted to, in conditions that the Irish would not have been used to as really they should be the better athletes, the ref allowing a free for all which the Irish knew would happen and didn't adapt to and finally the crowd, don't mistake the impact they had on the game. Seen it for Munster so many times.

This team will still make a quarter final and then they'll have a chance to redeem themselves. I've seen some journos writing that its the worst result in Irish sporting history?! That's a joke and takes away from the victors.

Lucy8080

I wisely ducked out of this thread after the game. We dominated until the 21st minute. In that period I thought we were at times a little overconfident in our play.Still, we came out 12-3 up. In that period Stockdale declined an opportunity to run his man outside for a try and we also declined a shot at goal.

The ref didn't lose us the game ( we should have copped the way he was adjudicating the ruck and taken a man out). I reckon it is fair to say that Japan were more favoured than ourselves when it came to the whistle,but not enough to justify the loss.

The fact that we failed to put points on the board for 60 mins demands real self reflection. Was it the humidity? Japan? or , maybe a lack of leadership on the pitch?

I thought we would would eventually get ourselves over the line , until that moment when Murray was buried under the previous ruck and, almost robotically, we formed the next ruck without the on field awareness to have a stand in scrum half.Japan came in and stole the ball. That was an awful moment. It gave the impression of physical and mental tiredness or just plain sloppiness.

Well done Japan, even in defeat I can take some joy from their infectious delight at their victory.

We'll beat you , Scotland or Samoa in the final- our "Group of Death" comrades!

Shefwedfan

typhoony wrote: »

I applaud his effort but I want a big carry or a big turnover. he's just not powerful enough

VDF is a 7....a “big carry” is not his game and never was....that’s the 6 and 8 job....

Shefwedfan

eagle eye wrote: »

Not a chance he would have been there even if he was squeaky clean.

PJ would have played today only for incident.....the time of the incident he had just come back from a hugely successful tour of SA and some people called for him to start ahead of sexton

He was a class player so if he was squeaky clean he would be at WC if fit....

FrancieBrady

A new day, and we are still in Japan, still right in the mix.

Those who cannot separate hype from reality are a little more chastened and realistic.
Onwards and hopefully upwards.

Kidchameleon

irishproduce wrote: »

If Jackson hadn't been hounded out of Irish rugby he'd have been in there today.

Agreed. His life was ruined by the regret of that promiscuous woman, but we all suffered yesterday as rugby fans.

ebbsy

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Its not perfect. No rankings system is but is pretty good at getting accurate enough guage on what level teams are at

The bookie is fairly good ranking normally.
We are still ranked 4th in line for the title with PP.

True.

lord quackinton

It is a shame about Jackson
You would expect regardless of how World Cup goes there will be a good few retirements and Farrell must realise Ireland must change how they play under him
Would like to have seen what jackson at ten and Carbery at 15 could have done

The Rape of Lucretia

Clegg wrote: »

A point about this game that needs to be praised is Japan's ball handling skills. Lightning fast pop passes and offloads that stuck so many times. They played fast, accurate and skillful rugby. The backs coach is Tony Brown, a man who I think is the best in the business. He was linked with Leinster when MoC left and I really wanted him them.

Just get him to any of the provinces and they'll carve it up. May even make Munster look even somewhat competent in the backs.

IRFU seem to know this - they are bringing Leinsters backs to him in recent years. If the mountain wont come to Mohammed..

ironingbored

Let's not underestimate:

1) How good Japan were
2) The effect of a 6-day turnaround vs 8
3) Conditions
4) Home crowd advantage

In 2011, France lost to Tonga and went on to a World Cup Final they arguably should've won.

In 2015, South Africa lost to Japan and reached a semi-final.

Some of the comments here really are OTT.

The Rape of Lucretia

ironingbored wrote: »

Let's not underestimate:

2) The effect of a 6-day turnaround vs 8

This was in our own hands, and should have been handled by a fuller team rotation. Joe phukked up royally on that point. No point complaining about the six days when you choose not to minimise or eliminate its impact.

typhoony

Shefwedfan wrote: »

typhoony wrote: »

I applaud his effort but I want a big carry or a big turnover. he's just not powerful enough

VDF is a 7....a “big carry” is not his game and never was....that’s the 6 and 8 job....

He was blown away at the breakdown also, not sure apart from tackles what he did

typhoony

typhoony wrote: »

He was blown away at the breakdown also, not sure apart from tackles what he did

That's what he's there for. He's arguably our most important backrow at the moment.

snotboogie

Former Former wrote: »

It really isn't. I'd say it's the weakest RWC squad since 2003.

Ah come on! This is by an absolute mile the strongest squad we have ever brought to a World Cup. In 2007 we had one out half in the squad because there was only one international quality out half in the country. Modern players like Tyler Bleyendaal and JJ Hanrahan would would have been key parts of the 2007 squad. Even in 2011, aside from O'connell and O'Driscoll, who would get into the Irish team now? D'Arcy, maybe?

Shefwedfan

typhoony wrote: »

He was blown away at the breakdown also, not sure apart from tackles what he did

He is supposed to tackle....

mfceiling

snotboogie wrote: »

Even in 2011, aside from O'connell and O'Driscoll, who would get into the Irish team now? D'Arcy, maybe?

Ferris and Heaslip.

Movementarian

ironingbored wrote: »

Let's not underestimate:

1) How good Japan were
2) The effect of a 6-day turnaround vs 8
3) Conditions
4) Home crowd advantage

In 2011, France lost to Tonga and went on to a World Cup Final they arguably should've won.

In 2015, South Africa lost to Japan and reached a semi-final.

Some of the comments here really are OTT.

Thats all true. And yet we still should have won the game handily. It should not excuse a dismal performance from the team.

typhoony

typhoony wrote: »

I applaud his effort but I want a big carry or a big turnover. he's just not powerful enough

Do you applaud his effort or do you think he went missing? Those things seem mutually exclusive to me.

The entire backrow got played off the park really. VdF is in by default in this RWC, Leavy is an enormous loss, but we're getting nowhere with with the current versions POM and Stander. They're not up to it.

The Lost Sheep

ironingbored wrote: »

Let's not underestimate:

1) How good Japan were
2) The effect of a 6-day turnaround vs 8
3) Conditions
4) Home crowd advantage

In 2011, France lost to Tonga and went on to a World Cup Final they arguably should've won.

In 2015, South Africa lost to Japan and reached a semi-final.

Some of the comments here really are OTT.

If it was under 6 days the turnaround would have been a factor but when 6 day turnarounds are regular occurances for these days is that really a factor. Agree with the rest. Japan were really really good, had done a lot of work and were prepared for so much of what we threw at them. Conditions and home crowd as well.
Yes France and South Africa did that in 11 and 15 but had won and got to world cup finals before that. We've not got to a semi so very different.

Wegians89

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

If it was under 6 days the turnaround would have been a factor but when 6 day turnarounds are regular occurances for these days is that really a factor. Agree with the rest. Japan were really really good, had done a lot of work and were prepared for so much of what we threw at them. Conditions and home crowd as well.
Yes France and South Africa did that in 11 and 15 but had won and got to world cup finals before that. We've not got to a semi so very different.

Think the 6 day vs 8 day was a factor. If Japan had played on the Saturday or Sunday before, it’s possible they mightn’t have been as fresh. These things happen in big tournaments though, especially for the hosts.

I genuinely don’t think it’s as big as a shock/ disappointment as it’s being made out to be. Ireland will still get to a quarter final and that quarter will be extremely though regardless which side we end up on. That’s the biggest match of Schmidt’s career and that’s the one I expect the team will peak for. Saying that I do t think we’ll be at a semi

Former Former

mfceiling wrote: »

Ferris and Heaslip.

POC, Ferris, SOB, Heaslip, D'Arcy, BOD, Bowe.

I'd also take the 2011 versions of Healy, Best, Sexton and Kearney over their 2019 incarnations.

So basically only Furlong, Ryan, Murray 2019 and Earls 2019 would make my combined XV.

[Obviously ANY Ireland side should be able to beat Japan]

Shefwedfan

Former Former wrote: »

POC, Ferris, SOB, Heaslip, D'Arcy, BOD, Bowe.

I'd also take the 2011 versions of Healy, Best, Sexton and Kearney over their 2019 incarnations.

So basically only Furlong, Ryan, Murray 2019 and Earls 2019 would make my combined XV.

[Obviously ANY Ireland side should be able to beat Japan]

Well it’s not obvious because in case you used Japan beat ireland yesterday

The Lost Sheep

Wegians89 wrote: »

Think the 6 day vs 8 day was a factor. If Japan had played on the Saturday or Sunday before, it’s possible they mightn’t have been as fresh. These things happen in big tournaments though, especially for the hosts.

I genuinely don’t think it’s as big as a shock/ disappointment as it’s being made out to be. Ireland will still get to a quarter final and that quarter will be extremely though regardless which side we end up on. That’s the biggest match of Schmidt’s career and that’s the one I expect the team will peak for. Saying that I do t think we’ll be at a semi

I dont think it was. Its very normal occurance in Europe etc for sides to play on 6 day turnaround compared to 8. It wasnt a factor
Will agree on Ireland will still be in a quarter and it'll be very tough

Former Former

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Well it’s not obvious because in case you used Japan beat ireland yesterday

Yes, and in case you missed it, this was regarded as a big shock, a game that Ireland should have won and an unacceptable result.

NufcNavan

ironingbored wrote: »

Let's not underestimate:

1) How good Japan were
2) The effect of a 6-day turnaround vs 8
3) Conditions
4) Home crowd advantage

In 2011, France lost to Tonga and went on to a World Cup Final they arguably should've won.

In 2015, South Africa lost to Japan and reached a semi-final.

Some of the comments here really are OTT.

Wales had a 6 day turnaround...

GreeBo

So, to go in a different direction... what tournaments should Japan be in to help them continue to grow into a tier 1 nation?

Seems like the championship is the obvious choice... but will they be the new Italy or would they hold their own with pumas?

ironingbored

NufcNavan wrote: »

Wales had a 6 day turnaround...

True but Australia made some monumental first half errors and still could've stolen it in the end.

Wales played Georgia in their first game too.

Movementarian

Former Former wrote: »

Yes, and in case you missed it, this was regarded as a big shock, a game that Ireland should have won and an unacceptable result.

Feel worse about it today then after the match itself. Maybe its watching Wales be the polar opposite of us in being tough, relentless and seriously stepping up for a big game.

snotboogie

Former Former wrote: »

POC, Ferris, SOB, Heaslip, D'Arcy, BOD, Bowe.

I'd also take the 2011 versions of Healy, Best, Sexton and Kearney over their 2019 incarnations.

So basically only Furlong, Ryan, Murray 2019 and Earls 2019 would make my combined XV.

[Obviously ANY Ireland side should be able to beat Japan]

I'd take Henshaw over D'Arcy and Stockdale over Bowe. 2019 Healy is a better player than 2011 Healy too.


The 2019 front row is better
The 2019 second row is better
The 2011 back row is better
Half backs are a wash
The 2011 midfield is better
2019 back 3 is better

The 2019 bench is better

kuang1

Dax Loose Refrigeration wrote: »

Do you applaud his effort or do you think he went missing? Those things seem mutually exclusive to me.

The entire backrow got played off the park really. VdF is in by default in this RWC, Leavy is an enormous loss, but we're getting nowhere with with the current versions POM and Stander. They're not up to it.

Not necessarily Stander's biggest fan in a green Jersey, but 7 days ago (let that sink in: 7 days... 7...) he achieved MOTM in what was considered our toughest group game.

its_phil

Wegians89 wrote: »

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

If it was under 6 days the turnaround would have been a factor but when 6 day turnarounds are regular occurances for these days is that really a factor. Agree with the rest. Japan were really really good, had done a lot of work and were prepared for so much of what we threw at them. Conditions and home crowd as well.
Yes France and South Africa did that in 11 and 15 but had won and got to world cup finals before that. We've not got to a semi so very different.

Think the 6 day vs 8 day was a factor. If Japan had played on the Saturday or Sunday before, it’s possible they mightn’t have been as fresh. These things happen in big tournaments though, especially for the hosts.

I genuinely don’t think it’s as big as a shock/ disappointment as it’s being made out to be. Ireland will still get to a quarter final and that quarter will be extremely though regardless which side we end up on. That’s the biggest match of Schmidt’s career and that’s the one I expect the team will peak for. Saying that I do t think we’ll be at a semi

I was a bit like that on it being a shock/disappointment yesterday but we’ve had a few excuses from Joe on the 6N not being a focus with the RWC the big picture.

We got to the big show and Joe flopped against a tier 2 side. That was the nonsense Joe had quashed since taking over. I was willing to give Joe the benefit of the doubt but I’m looking at Andy Farrell taking over in 2020 and wondering will he make the next RWC?

I still think we’ll make a QF and I do think we can beat anyone on our day but we’re so inconsistent for 2019 that we probably can’t win two big games in a row.

kuang1

its_phil wrote: »

I still think we’ll make a QF and I do think we can beat anyone on our day but we’re so inconsistent for 2019 that we probably can’t win two big games in a row.

My thoughts exactly.

After the French game in the 6ns it felt like things had been fixed.
Also felt like that last Sunday.

But immediately subsequent to both of those games we didn't show up.
Very worrying.

blinding

its_phil wrote: »

I was a bit like that on it being a shock/disappointment yesterday but we’ve had a few excuses from Joe on the 6N not being a focus with the RWC the big picture.

We got to the big show and Joe flopped against a tier 2 side. That was the nonsense Joe had quashed since taking over. I was willing to give Joe the benefit of the doubt but I’m looking at Andy Farrell taking over in 2020 and wondering will he make the next RWC?

I still think we’ll make a QF and I do think we can beat anyone on our day but we’re so inconsistent for 2019 that we probably can’t win two big games in a row.

I don’t think we have ever won two big games in a row at a world cup and we failed again yesterday .

munsterlegend

We were being smashed backwards in the tackle by the Japanese. I dread to think what South Africa,nz or England would do to us. I think the heat/humidity killed us yesterday and we looked so flat in the second half.